Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

awec

Alistair Colossal Sonar wrote: »

Munster are one of the biggest clubs in the pro 14 were currently second to one of the best purple patches any european team has had and we've been consistently better than the rest of the league

2nd is not mediocrity

No fans are happy to not be winning trophy's you can acknowledge that were not the southern kings while still not being happy about our trophy record

Your either talking out your hoop of trolling

Have you?

awec

awec wrote: »

Have you?

Over the last decade we've the 2nd most wins, 2nd most points for, 2nd least points against 2nd most winning bonus points (joint with glasgow) most overall runners up medals. 2nd most league points

Paul Smeenus

Alistair Colossal Sonar wrote: »

Over the last decade we've the 2nd most wins, 2nd most points for, 2nd least points against 2nd most winning bonus points (joint with glasgow) most overall runners up medals. 2nd most league points

Glasgow have a Pro14 trophy. Scarlets have a Pro14 trophy. Connacht have a Pro14 trophy.

There was an interesting point made on the RTE podcast - when Leinster were in their MOC-inspired doldrums, who capitalised to win trophies? Scarlets and Glasgow.

If Munster are genuinely consistently second best in the league, it's weird that three other teams have won silverware when Leinster have faltered.

Paul Smeenus

Alistair Colossal Sonar wrote: »

Munster are one of the biggest clubs in the pro 14 were currently second to one of the best purple patches any european team has had and we've been consistently better than the rest of the league

2nd is not mediocrity

No fans are happy to not be winning trophy's you can acknowledge that were not the southern kings while still not being happy about our trophy record

Your either talking out your hoop of trolling

Serious question - are you quite sure that Munster's HEC and Pro14 success wasn't simply their own "purple patch" and now they're found their level?

twinytwo

Alistair Colossal Sonar wrote: »

The difference between leinster and munster is population and the spending power of leinster schools

While this has merit to it, population and schools has nothing to do with our seemingly in grained need for slow rucks and shuffling the ball from touch line to touch line.

Earls, Conway, Haley all good players but spend most of their chasing kicks. DeAllande is essentially being wasted.

You can see the difference in the way Leinster play to us. When they turn the ball over they know exactly what they are doing. Munster turn it over, either box kick or shuffle it out to the wing usually with players receiving the ball standing still. It's like all the common sense is trained out of them.

We need to play smarter but never do.

I have said it numerous times before, but it cannot be said enough. JVG is a spoof and the sooner we see the back of him the better.

aloooof

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Glasgow have a Pro14 trophy. Scarlets have a Pro14 trophy. Connacht have a Pro14 trophy.

There was an interesting point made on the RTE podcast - when Leinster were in their MOC-inspired doldrums, who capitalised to win trophies? Scarlets and Glasgow.

If Munster are genuinely consistently second best in the league, it's weird that three other teams have won silverware when Leinster have faltered.

If you took average league position over the last decade, I'd wager Leinster are comfortably in top, with Munster comfortably behind them. That hasn't translated into a trophy like the clubs you mentioned, which is an issue, and ultimately silverware is all that matters.

Outside Leinster, individual clubs have been better than them on individual seasons. But given the average league position, combined with the stage of exit in Europe, Munster's relative average performance over the course of the decade has been higher. I think that's why people are concluding that Munster are 2nd best in the league, and I think it's reasonable enough.

Stage| Munster | Scarlets | Glasgow | Connacht
Group | 4 | 8 | 8 | 4
QF | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0
SF | 5 | 1 | 0 | 0


Of those teams, who would you suggest are better than them?

The Inbetween is mine

A couple of things...we are clearly the second best team in both Ireland & the Pro14...and have been for some time.
We're top 8 in Europe... but we want better...we want to win the Pro14 & possibly win the Heineken cup...
Connacht & Ulster would cream themselves to be in our position & even the most ardent supporter couldn't deny that.
Is Van Graan the coach to take us that one last step?.... Maybe not, we'll probably have to make a move for ROG inside 2 years if we want this current side to make real progress trophy wise

Cookiemunster

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Glasgow have a Pro14 trophy. Scarlets have a Pro14 trophy. Connacht have a Pro14 trophy.

There was an interesting point made on the RTE podcast - when Leinster were in their MOC-inspired doldrums, who capitalised to win trophies? Scarlets and Glasgow.

If Munster are genuinely consistently second best in the league, it's weird that three other teams have won silverware when Leinster have faltered.

Glasgow and Scarlets both beat Munster in the final. It's not as if Munster have been nowhere near winning it in those years. Munster have gotten to three league finals in the last 7 seasons (more than anyone other than Leinster), which points to them being pretty consistent. It just doesn't help that they've choked in all three finals.

Paul Smeenus

aloooof wrote: »

If you took average league position over the last decade, I'd wager Leinster are comfortably in top, with Munster comfortably behind them. That hasn't translated into a trophy like the clubs you mentioned, which is an issue, and ultimately silverware is all that matters.

Outside Leinster, individual clubs have been better than them on individual seasons. But given the average league position, combined with the stage of exit in Europe, Munster's relative average performance over the course of the decade has been higher. I think that's why people are concluding that Munster are 2nd best in the league, and I think it's reasonable enough.

Stage| Munster | Scarlets | Glasgow | Connacht
Group | 4 | 8 | 8 | 4
QF | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0
SF | 5 | 1 | 0 | 0


Of those teams, who would you suggest are better than them?

"Silverware is all that matters".

If you were being uncharitable, what you would extrapolate from that is that Munster will usually be second best, sometimes worse, never first. However Leinster do, Munster won't come top - someone will leapfrog them if Leinster aren't on their game. Perennial "nearly men".

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as antagonistic, which I suspect I am. I just don't understand how people think about Munster.

sebdavis

thomond2006 wrote: »

I haven't read a happy Munster fan on here for quite a while but do continue your strawmanning.

thomond2006 wrote: »

Scarlets had two seasons where they looked like a top European side (destroying Leinster and Munster on consecutive weekends in Dublin was outstanding) and then they retreated to the pack, just like Ospreys and Glasgow before them.

Munster have been a much more consistent outfit over the last 10 or so seasons.

Who you believe has had a better 10 years depends on your perspective on the currency of trophies.

You seem fairly content with winning nothing for 10 years, but at least Munster are consistent over that period.

As I posted already, trophies and medals are what teams/player count. One poster on here claims that Munster are not big enough to win trophies, when pointed out they are bigger than the majority of clubs they are up against the excuse given is Leinster. Over those 10 years Leinster didn't win the Pro14 every season.

I am not looking for anyone tears, this started when RTE had a good discussion about the issues in Munster. A group of Munster fans who happen to work on RTE. I was interested to see what fans on here though of this discussion but the answer on here seems to be "sure it is all grand, lets look at the next game. Sorry but that is a surprising attitude to me.

thomond2006

sebdavis wrote: »

You seem fairly content with winning nothing for 10 years, but at least Munster are consistent over that period.

You're adding 2+2 and getting 5 I'm afraid. The question was in relation to comparing Munster to flash in the pan teams.
I wasn't trying to give the impression that I'm happy with the last 10 years. Over that long period, Munster should have won some trophies.

aloooof

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

"Silverware is all that matters".

If you were being uncharitable, what you would extrapolate from that is that Munster will usually be second best, sometimes worse, never first. However Leinster do, Munster won't come top - someone will leapfrog them if Leinster aren't on their game. Perennial "nearly men".

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as antagonistic, which I suspect I am. I just don't understand how people think about Munster.

I think that's the gap that Munster have to figure out how to bridge.

Munster always being 2nd best recently doesn't mean it always has to be that way into the future. No more than prior to 2016, Ireland always being beaten by NZ, say.

I'm not exactly sure Munster have a coach of the calibre of Schmidt, mind...

Rigor Mortis

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

A couple of things...we are clearly the second best team in both Ireland & the Pro14...and have been for some time.
We're top 8 in Europe... but we want better...we want to win the Pro14 & possibly win the Heineken cup...
Connacht & Ulster would cream themselves to be in our position & even the most ardent supporter couldn't deny that.
Is Van Graan the coach to take us that one last step?.... Maybe not, we'll probably have to make a move for ROG inside 2 years if we want this current side to make real progress trophy wise

Munster are probably the second best team in Ireland, but if so it is not by much.
Munster are not obviously making an impact or look any more like winning a trophy than Ulster
I dont think Ulster would cream themselves, because they appear to have as strong or stronger crop of youngsters coming through. Also, Ulster dont have the huge weight of expectation tha tis on Munster's shoulders both from their fans and more so from media.
It woud be great if ROG came back, but i wouldnt be pinning my hopes on it.

The Inbetween is mine

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Munster are probably the second best team in Ireland, but if so it is not by much.
Munster are not obviously making an impact or look any more like winning a trophy than Ulster
I dont think Ulster would cream themselves, because they appear to have as strong or stronger crop of youngsters coming through. Also, Ulster dont have the huge weight of expectation tha tis on Munster's shoulders both from their fans and more so from media.
It woud be great if ROG came back, but i wouldnt be pinning my hopes on it.

I don't agree, there's quite a clear gulf between Munster & Ulster, and probably will be for a while to come.... our youth system looks like it will pay handsome dividends over the next few years with the core of the side being academy graduates
We're not looking behind us, were looking forward to try to catch Leinster....
possibly if Van Graan gets in somebody like POC for part of next season it would definitely help, but we'll see what the rest of the season brings first

Podge_irl

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

I don't agree, there's quite a clear gulf between Munster & Ulster, and probably will be for a while to come....

Based on what over the last couple of seasons?

Clegg

Ye should give this weeks 42 Rugby podcast a listen. Murray Kinsella is fairly ripping into the recruitment of Jenkins and Munsters development as a side. Being very polite about it, but I'm surprised by his level of criticism considering how complimentary he usually is towards Van Graan and Munster.

Paul Smeenus

Podge_irl wrote: »

Based on what over the last couple of seasons?

Being a Munster fan.

The Inbetween is mine

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Being a Munster fan.

On a Munster thread and all....the feckin audacity of me!

Rigor Mortis

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

I don't agree, there's quite a clear gulf between Munster & Ulster, and probably will be for a while to come.... our youth system looks like it will pay handsome dividends over the next few years with the core of the side being academy graduates
We're not looking behind us, were looking forward to try to catch Leinster....
possibly if Van Graan gets in somebody like POC for part of next season it would definitely help, but we'll see what the rest of the season brings first

Last 20 games between them, nine wins each and two draws.
Munster have some great young players, but so do Ulster. Balcoune, Lowry etc.

TRC10

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Last 20 games between them, nine wins each and two draws.
Munster have some great young players, but so do Ulster. Balcoune, Lowry etc.

And Ulster have a far better coach

Dubinusa

I don't know who's better going forward. Both Ulster and Munster have some good young player coming through. The thing is, Ulster have blooded more. Look at Hume and Lowry. Getting valuable experience week after week. Then there's Izzy! Already racking up caps. In fairness to Munster, Healy has been very involved. But, I think in general, Ulster back the younger lads quicker than Munster.

The Inbetween is mine

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Last 20 games between them, nine wins each and two draws.
Munster have some great young players, but so do Ulster. Balcoune, Lowry etc.

League position... getting out of Heineken cup group...
head to head mean little or nothing as you well know due to IRFU player protocols,

Lost Ormond

Dubinusa wrote: »

I don't know who's better going forward. Both Ulster and Munster have some good young player coming through. The thing is, Ulster have blooded more. Look at Hume and Lowry. Getting valuable experience week after week. Then there's Izzy! Already racking up caps. In fairness to Munster, Healy has been very involved. But, I think in general, Ulster back the younger lads quicker than Munster.

Have they blooded more? Munster given lot of game time to Healy, Casey, Coombes. Ahern got a few niggly ill timed injuries and without them would likely have played even more.

The Inbetween is mine

Dubinusa wrote: »

I don't know who's better going forward. Both Ulster and Munster have some good young player coming through. The thing is, Ulster have blooded more. Look at Hume and Lowry. Getting valuable experience week after week. Then there's Izzy! Already racking up caps. In fairness to Munster, Healy has been very involved. But, I think in general, Ulster back the younger lads quicker than Munster.

Ah it's not that simple, the game against benneton there were about a dozen Munster youngsters playing that day.
You could probably put together an Irish qualified u-25 team that would have some very tasty individuals onboard and be capable of performing in the Pro 14

theVersatile

I thought McFarland was getting stick in the Ulster thread earlier in the year for not playing McCann enough? Or did that turn around for a finish?

Also too bad Izzy's development will be hindered by the pesky Leone Nakarawa :pac: (I jest)

sebdavis

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

I don't agree, there's quite a clear gulf between Munster & Ulster, and probably will be for a while to come.... our youth system looks like it will pay handsome dividends over the next few years with the core of the side being academy graduates
We're not looking behind us, were looking forward to try to catch Leinster....
possibly if Van Graan gets in somebody like POC for part of next season it would definitely help, but we'll see what the rest of the season brings first

Im not sure how you can say there's a clear gulf between the sides. Ulster have progressed massively under the current coaching ticket after a difficult period. They decided to in vest massively in youth and have found some gems. The loss of Cotzee will be a huge loss I do admit but at the same time Munster are losing Stander.

On any given day Ulster will say they can beat Munster, either at home or away. They also have a better record over Leinster over the past while. Based on this season Ulster should have been in the final over Munster if you took the two best teams.

POC was clearly waiting for a job like the Ireland one which meant he wasn't doing day to day.

TRC10

theVersatile wrote: »

I thought McFarland was getting stick in the Ulster thread earlier in the year for not playing McCann enough? Or did that turn around for a finish?

Also too bad Izzy's development will be hindered by the pesky Leone Nakarawa :pac: (I jest)

Except Nakarawa is actually going to improve their team

thomond2006

TRC10 wrote: »

Except Nakarawa is actually going to improve their team

From what little I've seen of Nakarawa this season, that's debatable.

Nice recap of the tournament so far from Munster rugby:

theVersatile

TRC10 wrote: »

Except Nakarawa is actually going to improve their team

I've only seen one Nakarawa game this season - and he was taken off at half time.

Let's wait until the guys actually play a few matches before making that judgment.