Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

Paul Smeenus

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

Ah it's not that simple, the game against benneton there were about a dozen Munster youngsters playing that day.
You could probably put together an Irish qualified u-25 team that would have some very tasty individuals onboard and be capable of performing in the Pro 14

I think both teams have probably blooded a similar amount of youngsters this season.

The difference was probably the number blooded last season and the season before, and that some of those guys (O'Sullivan, Hume, Lowry, Baloucoune) are absolute lynchpins of the Ulster squad. O'Toole was capped the season before that, as was Lyttle.

FrannoFan

Dubinusa wrote: »

I don't know who's better going forward. Both Ulster and Munster have some good young player coming through. The thing is, Ulster have blooded more. Look at Hume and Lowry. Getting valuable experience week after week. Then there's Izzy! Already racking up caps. In fairness to Munster, Healy has been very involved. But, I think in general, Ulster back the younger lads quicker than Munster.

What would suggest Ulster are on a better trajectory than munster is the volume of quality players coming out of the academy. (They have put out a few all ulster under 25 backlines)
Mostly backs at the moment but with McCann coming along potentially a few forwards too.
Also recruiting shrewdly from Leinster schools.

I think mcfarland has a better eye for talent than van gran. Cleared out a load of "names" his first year and brought in young lads to play the style he is looking to implement. Also seems to trust his own judgement more. I feel van gran really is slow to trust the young lads. Yes he has played them but goes back to "experience" a lot. (Most coaches do to be fair just in contrast to macfarland)

Van Gran reminds me of matt o'connor at Leinster. Bringing in toquiri and Owen finnegan sooner than trust what was there.

Rigor Mortis

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

League position... getting out of Heineken cup group...
head to head mean little or nothing as you well know due to IRFU player protocols,

We're not going to agree. I wasnt even saying ulster were better, just that there's no gulf.
I'd get mad with you, but I like your user name too much.

Podge_irl

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

League position... getting out of Heineken cup group...
head to head mean little or nothing as you well know due to IRFU player protocols,

They had the exact same record as Munster this year. Their league "position" suffers cause of being in the same pool as Leinster but they have won a semi-final more recently than Munster have...

They also qualified out of their group in Europe the previous two seasons, unlike Munster.

There is no "big gulf" between Munster and Ulster.

aloooof

Podge_irl wrote: »

They had the exact same record as Munster this year. Their league "position" suffers cause of being in the same pool as Leinster but they have won a semi-final more recently than Munster have...

Don't the provinces play each other the same amount of times? If we're comparing Ulster to Munster then that doesn't come into it.

Equally, they won a semi-final more recently than Munster at least in part because they're in the same group as Leinster i.e. can't get them in a SF.

Podge_irl wrote: »

They also qualified out of their group in Europe the previous two seasons, unlike Munster.

That's not accurate; Munster topped their pool in 2019 (Ulster came 2nd in theirs).

Podge_irl wrote: »

There is no "big gulf" between Munster and Ulster.

I'd agree with you here, mind. Personally, I'd have Munster slightly ahead, but I don't think the gap is massive.

Podge_irl

aloooof wrote: »

Don't the provinces play each other the same amount of times? If we're comparing Ulster to Munster then that doesn't come into it.

Equally, they won a semi-final more recently than Munster at least in part because they're in the same group as Leinster i.e. can't get them in a SF.

Sure, that is partly true. But Ulster came 2nd this year in their conference on exactly the same record as Munster coming first in theirs.

aloooof wrote: »

That's not accurate; Munster topped their pool in 2019 (Ulster came 2nd in theirs).

It is accurate. Munster failed to qualify in 2019-2020 and Ulster did.

I'm not that arsed getting into an ins and outs of it anyway. I agree, I think Munster are the better team, but its marginal.

aloooof

Podge_irl wrote: »

It is accurate. Munster failed to qualify in 2019-2020 and Ulster did.

Your original post said they qualified out of their group in the previous two seasons, hence my reference to 2019. See here:

Podge_irl wrote: »

They also qualified out of their group in Europe the previous two seasons, unlike Munster.

(EDIT: I think I see the confusion; you mean Ulster qualified twice in the last 2 years while Munster only did once. I thought you meant Munster didn't either previous year. Anyways, not that big a deal).

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'm not that arsed getting into an ins and outs of it anyway. I agree, I think Munster are the better team, but its marginal.

I think we largely agree tbh.

Podge_irl

Ah yeah, potentially poorly phrased on my part but I meant Ulster qualified both years unlike Munster.

TRC10

theVersatile wrote: »

I've only seen one Nakarawa game this season - and he was taken off at half time.

Let's wait until the guys actually play a few matches before making that judgment.

I think it's a pretty safe assumption that if Ulster can get Nakarawa fit and firing, he's an upgrade on Matty Rea/Sean Reidy. Plus they have a NIE spot available with Coetzee leaving.

Burkie1203

theVersatile wrote: »

It's all a bit reactionary tbh. Before the Leinster game I think most fans would've said that great progress had been made in the attacking game - but that all gets undone fairly quickly with a loss.

But its a recurring theme at the business end of the season
2019 SF was a paddling too
2020 SF Munster didn't score for 75 minutes
2021 Final did very little -resorted to aimless boxkicking

sebdavis

theVersatile wrote: »

It's all a bit reactionary tbh. Before the Leinster game I think most fans would've said that great progress had been made in the attacking game - but that all gets undone fairly quickly with a loss.

Most of the conversation was based on the game in January because it looked closer, not a game you could say Munster had great progress in attack when they never scored after 11 minutes.

Burkie1203

Clegg wrote: »

Ye should give this weeks 42 Rugby podcast a listen. Murray Kinsella is fairly ripping into the recruitment of Jenkins and Munsters development as a side. Being very polite about it, but I'm surprised by his level of criticism considering how complimentary he usually is towards Van Graan and Munster.

https://twitter.com/GavanCasey/status/1377675831187759107?s=19

sebdavis

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GavanCasey/status/1377675831187759107?s=19

He is 100% correct but based on the comments here already I expect he will be ignored.

sydthebeat

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GavanCasey/status/1377675831187759107?s=19

Ah but if you mention "identity" on the munster thread you're told it's just a way of selling shirts.....

Former Former Former

There's a bit of a red pill/blue pill effect here.

The standard of the Pro14 is so low that it's easy to watch Munster hammering lads every week and think that it means something, and the memory of the failure to fire in the last game against quality opposition fades over time. That was compounded this season by the win in Clermont. Yes, it was a great win - but they were dead and buried after half an hour and most top teams who are not Clermont would have seen that out.

So every year we hear it's progress, we're getting places, and then the reality check comes. We might even see it again this weekend, I think Munster will win and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Pro14 final being painted not as a hammering and a wasteland of creative play but as the wake-up call this team needed...

I'm glad to hear Murray Kinsella pulling up Munster on their lies (yes, lies) about Jenkins helping the young lads to develop. It's all bollocks. The reality remains that Munster aren't producing enough of their own players and they need to import short-term fixes because the fans still expect Munster to win Europe.

Cookiemunster

Former Former Former wrote: »

There's a bit of a red pill/blue pill effect here.

The standard of the Pro14 is so low that it's easy to watch Munster hammering lads every week and think that it means something, and the memory of the failure to fire in the last game against quality opposition fades over time. That was compounded this season by the win in Clermont. Yes, it was a great win - but they were dead and buried after half an hour and most top teams who are not Clermont would have seen that out.

So every year we hear it's progress, we're getting places, and then the reality check comes. We might even see it again this weekend, I think Munster will win and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Pro14 final being painted not as a hammering and a wasteland of creative play but as the wake-up call this team needed...

I'm glad to hear Murray Kinsella pulling up Munster on their lies (yes, lies) about Jenkins helping the young lads to develop. It's all bollocks. The reality remains that Munster aren't producing enough of their own players and they need to import short-term fixes because the fans still expect Munster to win Europe.

The reality is that no province other than Leinster can produce enough of their own players. I do laugh at the hammering that Munster get for the amount of non 'Munster' players in the squad, but the amount of non 'Ulster' players in the Ulster squad gets totally ignored.

On Saturday 15 of the Munster 23 was Munster produced. In Ulsters last big game against Leinster 14 of their 23 were Ulster produced and 3 of those 14 are from Leinster.

But yeah, lets stick with the narrative that it's only a Munster issue. It's an issue in all three of the other provinces. And still, despite that, as been mentioned numerous times, Munster have promoted 9 academy players into the senior squad for next season.

thomond2006

The reality is that Munster haven't produced enough players during the years where those players would be 25-28 now. Some of those players had injury issues that ruined their development (John Madigan comes to mind). So Munster had to supplement the squad over the last few years with Marshall, Loughman, Cloete etc.

Munster have just promoted nine players to the seniors. Three of those players hadn't finished their three academy seasons. We are letting go a group of older players to make that happen.

I'd like to think that "Munster don't produce enough players" is not a conversation to be had in 2-3 years time.

thomond2006

As for the Jenkins thing, Arno Botha covered minutes while Gavin Coombes developed. Perhaps the same can be applied to Jenkins and Ahern. The IRFU signed off on this. Whatever Munster's view of Ahern is, it's shared by Lansdowne Road.

Because of certain players produced by Leinster over the last few years, we can't assume that someone like Ahern who just turned 21 is ready for 15-20 starts next season.

Also, if you take the Munster explanation at face value, Jenkins would not have been approved but for CJ retiring. Everyone was caught unawares by that as CJ was probably assumed to be around at Munster for at least three more seasons.

(I'm repeating myself, aren't I?!)

thomond2006

sebdavis wrote: »

He is 100% correct but based on the comments here already I expect he will be ignored.

sydthebeat wrote: »

Ah but if you mention "identity" over on the munster thread you're told it's just a way of selling shirts.....

What's ignored is some context. Look at Munster's extended squad in the first season Munster won the Heineken Cup. There's a host of non-Munster players: https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2005/09/28/munster-heineken-squad-2005-2006/

Munster had a phenomenal starting XV and won the Heineken Cup, so guess what? Nobody cared about all the non-Munster players filing out their squad and their identity was amazing.

irishbucsfan

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The reality is that no province other than Leinster can produce enough of their own players. I do laugh at the hammering that Munster get for the amount of non 'Munster' players in the squad, but the amount of non 'Ulster' players in the Ulster squad gets totally ignored.

On Saturday 15 of the Munster 23 was Munster produced. In Ulsters last big game against Leinster 14 of their 23 were Ulster produced and 3 of those 14 are from Leinster.

But yeah, lets stick with the narrative that it's only a Munster issue. It's an issue in all three of the other provinces. And still, despite that, as been mentioned numerous times, Munster have promoted 9 academy players into the senior squad for next season.

Eh this exact debate has been had in the Ulster thread and they provide the same excuse. There’s not enough population or whatever.

The question isn’t really whether Munster can produce the same number of players as Leinster. The question is whether they are doing everything they can to produce as many as possible. Certainly seems Kinsella doesn’t think so anyway, the point about 1 Limerick player in the academy is pretty sharp.

Cookiemunster

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Eh this exact debate has been had in the Ulster thread and they provide the same excuse. There’s not enough population or whatever.

The question isn’t really whether Munster can produce the same number of players as Leinster. The question is whether they are doing everything they can to produce as many as possible. Certainly seems Kinsella doesn’t think so anyway, the point about 1 Limerick player in the academy is pretty sharp.

I wasn't really talking about on here. I was referring to the Irish rugby media and fans in general. I don't go into other teams threads.

Yeah, there probably should be more from Limerick, but that's to ignore the recent successes with academy players from places like Waterford, West Cork and Tipperary making it onto senior contracts and the fact that 9 players graduated this year, some of whom were only in year 2 and 1 (Crowley) who was only year 1. Munsters development path and academy has improved dramatically over recent years.

That still doesn't mean that they'll ever be able to produce enough players though, even when the issues in Limerick are resolved. The simple reality is that Leinster do have a larger base and they have 10 private academies providing players who are already developed enough to go straight into senior rugby. That doesn't exist elsewhere.

prawnsambo

How times have changed.

yerrahbah

Any predictions for the team?

Killer in for Cronin and JOD in for POM if unavailable would be the obvious changes

That leaves us light on jackal threats, wouldn't be totally surprised to see Cloete get a start.

After that its largely the same squad who didn't perform last weekend.

Cant afford to give Toulouse an early lead.

Quin_Dub

thomond2006 wrote: »

The reality is that Munster haven't produced enough players during the years where those players would be 25-28 now. Some of those players had injury issues that ruined their development (John Madigan comes to mind). So Munster had to supplement the squad over the last few years with Marshall, Loughman, Cloete etc.

Munster have just promoted nine players to the seniors. Three of those players hadn't finished their three academy seasons. We are letting go a group of older players to make that happen.

I'd like to think that "Munster don't produce enough players" is not a conversation to be had in 2-3 years time.

This is a very valid point - The "hole" in the Munster development cycle between players like Murray and Kilcoyne and now Casey, Coombes etc. was very significant.

There is no question that the current crop of 19-23 yr olds is the best Munster have had in a decade and the hope would be that the majority of those go on to form the back-bone of the Munster squad for the next decade or more.

The challenge for Munster is two fold - How to bring that group through quickly and successfully , and perhaps more importantly - How to ensure that this group isn't an anomoly and that they maintain that pipeline of players.

Leinster will always have greater numbers of "potentials" coming though based purely on population numbers , but Munster should absolutely be able to get 1 or 2 players from each year consistently that go on to be front-line starters for the team.

That is the bare minimum that they should be aiming for as any squad are going to lose at least 1 or 2 players each year to Retirement or Career ending Injury.

The academy has largely failed to do that for the last 10 years , hopefully this current crop are a sign of that failure coming to an end.

mun1

Munster definitely need to get more players from limerick into the system. It good to see Waterford, west cork and tipp player coming through but limerick should be the second biggest player pool and has 9 rugby clubs playing underage and four schools in the county.
It can only improve munster .

I’m coaching an underage team in the city and the munster RDO’s only seem to want to look at schools players as they can help condition them 5 days a week (and not work weekends ). Fair enough to concentrate on schools as you have access to players more often, but the club players are mostly totally ignored, with munster losing out.


Strong whiff of xenophobia from Murray kinsellas articles lately . I would like to see an all locally produced munster team as much as anyone but signing Jenkins is not going to stop Ahern getting game time experience. Murray and jackman seem to be picking on the Jenkins story a bit too much. Jackman has some form for this type of hubris but surprised at Murray kinsella .
His more reasonable points are in danger of being lost.

All Irish provinces have imports of one form or another , just because Leinster are just about self sustainable at this point in time (but still rely on one or two imports) doesn’t mean its a sin if other provinces need more support.

Regarding Toulouse game tomorrow, don’t expect to win but could do without scannell talking tough to the media with comments like “ coming out swinging”
I’d prefer if he concentrated on not giving away too many penalties in the match and keep his trap shut.

sydthebeat

i see ROG is also worried about Munster losing their identity...... but hey..... selling shirts etc etc

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40256801.html

Former Former Former

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The reality is that no province other than Leinster can produce enough of their own players. I do laugh at the hammering that Munster get for the amount of non 'Munster' players in the squad, but the amount of non 'Ulster' players in the Ulster squad gets totally ignored.

On Saturday 15 of the Munster 23 was Munster produced. In Ulsters last big game against Leinster 14 of their 23 were Ulster produced and 3 of those 14 are from Leinster.

But yeah, lets stick with the narrative that it's only a Munster issue. It's an issue in all three of the other provinces. And still, despite that, as been mentioned numerous times, Munster have promoted 9 academy players into the senior squad for next season.

It is an issue in all three provinces. The difference is the expectation levels of the respective fan bases.

Promoting nine players from the academy is great, but ultimately meaningless if they don't develop from there. I'm optimistic that this is a good crop though.

Clegg

Same backline as the Leinster game but with a rejigged front row and JOD replacing POM.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1377935343517847555?s=09

Former Former Former

thomond2006 wrote: »

Also, if you take the Munster explanation at face value, Jenkins would not have been approved but for CJ retiring. Everyone was caught unawares by that as CJ was probably assumed to be around at Munster for at least three more seasons.

I don't think so tbh. It was only two weeks between CJ's announcement and the Jenkins signing being confirmed. That's not enough time for an end to end signing process. Either Munster were well advanced with Jenkins already thinking they'd have both next season, or CJ leaving was well flagged before the news broke and not really a bombshell. The latter would be my guess.

The Inbetween is mine

I'd have liked to have seen Cloete start, this is the kind of game he'd relish