Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

FrannoFan

Yeah_Right wrote: »

They should be told to do it or find a new career. The IRFU are paying their wages and if the player doesn't want to work where the IRFU has a vacancy then they should find a new employer.

You don't earn enough, need a career after. It's a great job in your 20's.
Lads wouldn't look at it as a career if you told them after leaving cert where to move on the "chance" of a contract after 3 years.

salmocab

Jesus Christ why would a province bother if it didn’t matter what they did at underage they could just take their pick anyway. Academy’s are a product of what went on before the young lads got there

FrannoFan

Yeah_Right wrote: »

So a player who isn't willing to move a couple of hours drive away will instead move to completely different country??? Right. That makes sense.

No one is talking about established players. Or at least, I'm not. I'm talking about players at academy level.

Are you aware at all of the route to the academy?
A lad does leaving cert, hopefully goes to college. After first year college in sub academy hopes to make ireland 20's.
At start of second year college if lucky one of 7/8 gets offered a place in academy or else does a second year in academy and maybe offered a place at start of third year college.
At end of three years maybe gets development deal which isn't exactly outstanding money or let go.
Maybe does one of two years on development deal and if he breaks through maybe gets a big deal (like dorris etc) or gets a marginally better deal like a squad player(vakh abdalaz. Etc)

At what point do you expect lads to drop out of college to switch course somewhere else in the hope of one of these development deals?

Players generally prioritize college first. Plan for if they don't make it.

Lost Ormond

FrannoFan wrote: »

Are you aware at all of the route to the academy?
A lad does leaving cert, hopefully goes to college. After first year college in sub academy hopes to make ireland 20's.
At start of second year college if lucky one of 7/8 gets offered a place in academy or else does a second year in academy and maybe offered a place at start of third year college.
At end of three years maybe gets development deal which isn't exactly outstanding money or let go.
Maybe does one of two years on development deal and if he breaks through maybe gets a big deal (like dorris etc) or gets a marginally better deal like a squad player(vakh abdalaz. Etc)

At what point do you expect lads to drop out of college to switch course somewhere else in the hope of one of these development deals?

Players generally prioritize college first. Plan for if they don't make it.

why do they have to drop out because of an academy offer? Look at loads of players and how theyve completed degrees. Sure robbie henshaw started his degree in NUIG and then after his transfer to Leinster he transferred to do similar course in UCD.
The pandemic shows even more that you dont have to be as rigid. You certainly dont have to drop out of anything because of an offer of a pro contract.

ClanofLams

salmocab wrote: »

Jesus Christ why would a province bother if it didn’t matter what they did at underage they could just take their pick anyway. Academy’s are a product of what went on before the young lads got there

Because it’s their job? Or you move to a National led structure where development officers etc work directly for the IRFU.

I don’t think this will happen in the foreseeable future anyway but I don’t think the obstacles being mentioned such as player development college etc can’t be overcome.

Buer

Alistair Colossal Sonar wrote: »

tell Peter o mahony to ship to Dublin and he probably goes south of france instead

Geography was never his strong point.

sebdavis

No Ireland doesn't need a centralised academy system. Leinster have a working system. So do other provinces.
The discussion is about Munster, instead of fixing their own system now fans want to break everyone elses? why should young player who grow up wanting to play for Leinster have to move because Munster can't get their house in order? why should a young Munster player have to do the same?

I go back to the RTE podcast because Lenihan seems to have great experience in the system and he says the players are available, just the system in broken. Munster have two of the major cities in Ireland yet it's everyone else's fault.

Maybe instead of pointing the finger and throwing hand up in air it might be worth discussing the actually problem and what the resolution might be? so far I haven't seen a single post from Munster fans discuss the issues raised by Lenihan in the Munster system and potential resolution. ITs been pages of excuse or "well they done XYZ".

aloooof

sebdavis wrote: »

No Ireland doesn't need a centralised academy system. Leinster have a working system. So do other provinces.
The discussion is about Munster, instead of fixing their own system now fans want to break everyone elses? why should young player who grow up wanting to play for Leinster have to move because Munster can't get their house in order? why should a young Munster player have to do the same?

I go back to the RTE podcast because Lenihan seems to have great experience in the system and he says the players are available, just the system in broken. Munster have two of the major cities in Ireland yet it's everyone else's fault.

Maybe instead of pointing the finger and throwing hand up in air it might be worth discussing the actually problem and what the resolution might be? so far I haven't seen a single post from Munster fans discuss the issues raised by Lenihan in the Munster system and potential resolution. ITs been pages of excuse or "well they done XYZ".

When the XYZ amounts to promoting 9 guys from the academy, I don’t know what more you want. I’ve yet to see a post from you acknowledge that.

AbusesToilets

At this stage, the Leinster academy basically functions as a national one

AbusesToilets

AbusesToilets wrote: »

At this stage, the Leinster academy basically functions as a national one

How so?

Yeah_Right

Yeah_Right wrote: »

So a player who isn't willing to move a couple of hours drive away will instead move to completely different country??? Right. That makes sense.

No one is talking about established players. Or at least, I'm not. I'm talking about players at academy level.

Because again they would get more money. Jack crowley was recently approached by la rochelle if it was ulster or la rochelle vs munster or la rochelle that's a different conversation

Dubinusa

This year has been good from a Munster perspective. 9 lads promoted. But there's bee years were lads just drifted away. Rory Burke, Sean O'Connor and others. It seems like there was a barren spell for some years and this year hopefully is not an anomaly. I expect Leinster will probably only promote 3 lads this year.

sydthebeat

Dubinusa wrote: »

This year has been good from a Munster perspective. 9 lads promoted. But there's bee years were lads just drifted away. Rory Burke, Sean O'Connor and others. It seems like there was a barren spell for some years and this year hopefully is not an anomaly. I expect Leinster will probably only promote 3 lads this year.

I'm counting 12 of the leinster academy who are already capped.

Why do you think only 3 will be promoted?

I'd imagine more than 3 contracts will be un-renewed / retired / transferred.

swiwi_

thomond2006 wrote: »

Is it Munster or the media who will do the pashun stuff and 'dine out' on the results though?

When I was a kid pashun was what you hoped to end up doing with a hot chick from the neighbouring girls school at the annual formal.

sebdavis

aloooof wrote: »

When the XYZ amounts to promoting 9 guys from the academy, I don’t know what more you want. I’ve yet to see a post from you acknowledge that.

Sorry but why do I need to acknowledge it?

The conversation, as I have posted many times, was started by RTE and by Lenihan. I have yet to see any Munster supporter discuss it on this thread? it seems the majority of the posts are trying to shut it down quickly.

Lenihan is involved in the system in Munster and he sees huge issues. Are you saying he wasn't telling the truth?

thomond2006

I don't listen to RTE's podcast and I'm not going to.

You've been told by numerous posters what Munster are doing and have done. You haven't been shut down.

aloooof

sebdavis wrote: »

Sorry but why do I need to acknowledge it?

The conversation, as I have posted many times, was started by RTE and by Lenihan. I have yet to see any Munster supporter discuss it on this thread? it seems the majority of the posts are trying to shut it down quickly.

Lenihan is involved in the system in Munster and he sees huge issues. Are you saying he wasn't telling the truth?

Not at all what I'm saying, and that's a pretty big leap leap, tbh. You haven't given us the specifics of what Lenihan has said. I'm sure there's some truth in his points, but equally the fact Munster have promoted 9 guys from the academy suggest things may not be as bad as you (or perhaps Lenihan) are making out.

It's often the case that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Tbh, your crisiticm would be easier to take seriously if you were more consistent across the board. But last week you suggested Gav Coombes was over-hyped and wouldn't have gotten as much praise if he was in the Leinster academy. Yet 2 weeks previous, you suggested if Lowe didn't make the 23 for England, it's cos he's being rested.

That's extremely harsh on Coombes and extremely generous on Lowe. It all seems pretty one-eyed to me.

sebdavis

aloooof wrote: »

Not at all what I'm saying, and that's a pretty big leap leap, tbh. You haven't given us the specifics of what Lenihan has said. I'm sure there's some truth in his points, but equally the fact Munster have promoted 9 guys from the academy suggest things may not be as bad as you (or perhaps Lenihan) are making out.

It's often the case that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Tbh, your crisiticm would be easier to take seriously if you were more consistent across the board. But last week you suggested Gav Coombes was over-hyped and wouldn't have gotten as much praise if he was in the Leinster academy. Yet 2 weeks previous, you suggested if Lowe didn't make the 23 for England, it's cos he's being rested.

That's extremely harsh on Coombes and extremely generous on Lowe. It all seems pretty one-eyed to me.

No I didn't

I said that if Lowe wasn't played for the England game it would be good for Leinster. It was on the Leinster thread and a discussion about the Leinster games after the England game. What exactly is the issue with that?

In regards to Coombes, I posted the comparison between the two players which was released by the Pro14 and just pointed out that Penny had better stats but nowhere near the conversation we are hearing about Coombes. Attached the image below for reference. Penny went on to win the Pro14 Next-Gen star beating Coombes. What exactly is the issue?

The RTE podcast(https://www.rte.ie/radio1/podcast/podcast_therugbyshow.xml) is available for everyone to listen to, it wasn't me that mentioned it first and I listened out of interest. This was followed up by the 42 saying something similar, I just listened to the review of the Munster v Toulouse game on Offtheball and Keith Wood also made reference to it, seemingly they had discussion earlier in the day as well and made reference to it.

Are we not allowed to discuss this topic?
Or are you not aware of the issues they are discussing?

Jump_In_Jack

On the RTÉ rugby podcast,
Donal Lenihan and Wes Liddy both gave accounts of Cork and Limerick issues getting resources into the game where it would bring on more talent.
Lenihan is the Cork Con president and has oversight throughout the club; his major criticism is around the Munster underage setup, and the fact there is a north and south split and there are still only two schools in Cork and one in Bandon that are set up to produce elite youths players in the Cork schools system, and that there is a farcical U20’s setup where teams can’t get matches, maybe 5 matches in a whole season, and UCC and Cork Con are doing a decent job getting players through to senior or junior level from U20’s with their greater resources than most clubs, and there’s a chasm between their setups and the next teams around, there are probably one or two other clubs in Cork, maybe Clonakilty and Highfield that have good underage structures set up to produce and retain players through to senior or junior level, but where will the future players come from when already most talented athletes will find an easier sport to get matches and better organised associations for guys after turning 20, eg GAA, Soccer, Basketball, etc.

The point about Limerick was that David Kilcoyne is regularly the only representative player from the Limerick rugby system, and that is a major problem. Wes spoke about it at length on previous podcasts, but basically when you have success in hurling or soccer or whatever in the county, and if the Munster branch are not paying enough attention to the players in both club and schools, the players will slip through the net.

It’s a shocking indictment of the Munster underage system, we are now producing more players from Waterford, Tipp, Kerry, Clare and West Cork than from the much more established bases in Cork and Limerick.

It’s worrying in the short to medium term if there are no changes being pursued to ameliorate the situation. We can’t rely on finding a Thomas Ahern or a Jack O’Donoghue every few years by chance.

aloooof

sebdavis wrote: »

No I didn't

I said that if Lowe wasn't played for the England game it would be good for Leinster. It was on the Leinster thread and a discussion about the Leinster games after the England game. What exactly is the issue with that?

You absolutely did suggest he could be "rested":

sebdavis wrote: »

Due to the short turn around I would expect some players will be rested, Lowe could be one. Which would mean if not in match day squad he could be ready for the Pro14 final. Wishful thinking maybe

sebdavis wrote: »

Would (Coombes) be as hyped if he came from the Leinster academy?

Anyways I've just put 2+2 together and came up with ShefWedFan something so I think I'll leave it there.

Former Former Former

Munster can take a big step in player development tomorrow. Give CJ, JJ, Marshall and Billy Holland the gold watches and tell them to enjoy the Rainbow Cup at home. Tell Craig Casey he's the starting nine against Leinster in a few weeks so get used to the idea. If Salanoa is breathing air, tell him the same.

No point kicking the can down the road another five months, get going now.

sebdavis

aloooof wrote: »

You absolutely did suggest he could be "rested":





Anyways I've just put 2+2 together and came up with ShefWedFan something so I think I'll leave it there.

The post about Lowe was on the Leinster thread, talking about Leinster. He was rested for Ireland so it was good for the final. So what exactly is the issue with that?

You put 2+2 and got 12.
Not sure what any of this has to do with the Munster academy issues? Jump_in_jack posted the details, fair play to him/her, any comment on that?

aloooof

sebdavis wrote: »

The post about Lowe was on the Leinster thread, talking about Leinster. He was rested for Ireland so it was good for the final. So what exactly is the issue with that?

He was rested for the final he didn't play in? You like mentioning podcasts; every podcast I listened to in the lead up to the England game suggested Lowe should be dropped.

The issue is that I don't think you argue in good faith. By any reasonable measure, Lowe was dropped yet you don't want to admit it.

sebdavis wrote: »

Not sure what any of this has to do with the Munster academy issues? Jump_in_jack posted the details, fair play to him/her, any comment on that?

I think he/she has spoken a lot of sense. In particular, the Limerick issue needs to be addressed. It's difficult when the hurlers are so successful at the moment, but that's not a good enough excuse. However, there have been some excellent developments throughout the rest of the province. We're producing players from places we historically haven't.

We've been able to promote 9 players from the academy this season and that can only be seen as a positive. Any comment on that?

sebdavis

aloooof wrote: »

He was rested for the final he didn't play in? You like mentioning podcasts; every podcast I listened to in the lead up to the England game suggested Lowe should be dropped.

The issue is that I don't think you argue in good faith. By any reasonable measure, Lowe was dropped yet you don't want to admit it.

The post was on the Leinster thread. If it was on the Ireland thread it would be a different discussion.

Different threads, different discussion points.
You seem to struggle with this, otherwise why are you talking about Lowe & Ireland & Leinster on a Munster thread

Also I am fairly sure if you read the Ireland thread you will find a post saying Ireland should drop Lowe

Caranica

Folks any thoughts on why we still have serious problems around restarts. We handed Clermont tries from them in December, we bumbled most of them v Leinster and again yesterday. They're proving very costly and surely it's something they should have been working on? 3 weeks until the next game, can they fix them?

thomond2006

Lowe was dropped.

Clegg

Caranica wrote: »

Folks any thoughts on why we still have serious problems around restarts. We handed Clermont tries from them in December, we bumbled most of them v Leinster and again yesterday. They're proving very costly and surely it's something they should have been working on? 3 weeks until the next game, can they fix them?

Restarts weren't the only problem. Over the last few games Munster's kicking hasnt been up to snuff. That includes fielding. Conway was targeted under the high ball and Toulouse won a lot of those contests.

thomond2006

Former Former Former wrote: »

Munster can take a big step in player development tomorrow. Give CJ, JJ, Marshall and Billy Holland the gold watches and tell them to enjoy the Rainbow Cup at home. Tell Craig Casey he's the starting nine against Leinster in a few weeks so get used to the idea. If Salanoa is breathing air, tell him the same.

No point kicking the can down the road another five months, get going now.

I agree. The players leaving should be left out (and that's quite a number of them). The Rainbow games will probably be treated as a hit out for young lads. We have close to a fully fit squad as well so we can leave out while the departing players and manage minutes.

Having said that, the internationals including CJ who hope to be named to the Lions will probably play regularly. I assume the stipend to the IRFU for call-ups still exists.

irishbucsfan

Thinking outside the box here, Stewart Island just off NZ used to be part of New Munster. I reckon the kiwis have forgotten about it, so maybe could set up some sort of secret base academy there

Yeah_Right

FrannoFan wrote: »

Are you aware at all of the route to the academy?
A lad does leaving cert, hopefully goes to college. After first year college in sub academy hopes to make ireland 20's.
At start of second year college if lucky one of 7/8 gets offered a place in academy or else does a second year in academy and maybe offered a place at start of third year college.
At end of three years maybe gets development deal which isn't exactly outstanding money or let go.
Maybe does one of two years on development deal and if he breaks through maybe gets a big deal (like dorris etc) or gets a marginally better deal like a squad player(vakh abdalaz. Etc)

At what point do you expect lads to drop out of college to switch course somewhere else in the hope of one of these development deals?

Players generally prioritize college first. Plan for if they don't make it.

So basically guys are doing university courses while also attending a rugby academy. Pretty much what I thought. I still don't see why there couldn't be some sort of centralised draft system where players get picked up by the 4 provinces. If a player refuses to go, he can go play AIL and the IRFU can stop spending money on him.

Every other country has players move to different states, cities, regions etc in the hope of getting game time and furthering their career. In a lot of cases they end up playing for a team different to the one they grew up supporting or where they did their development. It seems to be only in Ireland that this is an issue and I genuinely don't understand why.