Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

All My Stars Aligned

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

If as is happening at the moment where only fringe or second choice players are moving between provinces it means that the strongest provinces, ie those with the bigger populations get to keep the best players and the gap remains.
It's the natural inequality of a capital city and population density. It's fairly obvious those supporters who don't want to admit to that advantage and why they don't.

Its the same argument thats been raging for years in GAA. It's natural however for a supporter to want the best players at their club. I spend more time watching Leinster then I do Ireland and would be happier seeing Leinster with the European cup then Ireland the GS and so want us to retain the best players available. However, when I take off my blue tinted glasses I do agree with you that as things stand the gap will only grow.

Richie_Rich89

The two thoughts I had when I seen this Jenkins lad play is that he's a fast, dynamic runner and that he's a bit ineffective in the post tackle situation. He'd make a tackle and then just sort of flop away to the side rather than jumping back to his feet to try to make a nuisance of himself.

It seems Ahern will only be indirectly affected by this signing, with Wycherley probably playing more in the second row than he would have otherwise.

It doesn't make much sense to me that you'd play a 6'4'' guy who's probably better at 6 at lock and a 6'7'' guy who's mostly a lock at blindside, but hey ho...

It's a pity for O'Donoghue if he isn't going to be backed as first choice blindside going forward. I'd say he potentially has more international caps in him if he got a run at the Munster 6 jersey.

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

Does Kilkenny have the biggest population in the country??

If not, why are they the most consistently successful hurling team.

Hurling is played to an elite level in less than half of the counties and I'm guessing Kilkenny has the highest rate of hurling clubs/players per capita by county. Population arguments can be twisted as you like but Leinster have obvious advantages.

Right now I think Munster must be naturally more conservative when it comes to talents like Thomas Ahern. Look how well Gavin Coombes is playing, however it took him until he was 22/23 to really push on. Ahern just turned 21. If he's ready by this time next year to be the starter, he will be. If not, he can continue to develop physically/mentally and play a few games.

I looked at the 2015/16 academy and only 3 of 21 players listed are still in the Munster squad (LOC, Goggin and Rory Scannell) and another 3 are with Connacht. Five years later and Munster's academy output is in a much better place. This season five players were promoted. Next season nine players will be promoted.

Going forward, front row is the biggest concern. Kilcoyne is an international quality LH but probably has 2-3 seasons left in him. Ryan and Archer aren't good enough. Munster will need Josh Wycherley and Knox/Salanoa to come good or they might need to go into the market. Hooker is up in the air and I could certainly see Munster looking at the market next summer.

NewWay82

What do you mean munster are naturally more Conservative when it comes to young players? You make it sound like they have to be. Ahearn should be playing now. Jenkins is a stupid signing and shows munsters lack of faith in a younger Irish player. Coombes is a fine example of a player who should have been playing way before this season. By the time he gets in the Ireland team(2/3 years) he'll be on the wane athletically.

molloyjh

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Rather than a national academy, I think more co-ordination between academies and some sort of national oversight.

Yeah that makes sense to me. I wouldn't be a fan of a national academy. Mainly because as a Leinster fan it is basically all negative for Leinster. They'll be made weaker while their main competition will be made stronger. I'm not sure of the same or similar development disparities exist in NZ but the disparity here makes for a very difficult situation.

But wider cooperation would be a good idea. Or even a national Academy style idea for those guys on the cusp of provincial Academy contracts but who missed out for one reason or another. That could feed other provinces, the 7s team etc. So the provinces still get to select who they want from their own development pathways and everyone else is then in the national Academy to see what their options are. If the national Academy works then guys like Penny could chose that option rather than sit in the log jam at Leinster knowing they have a good chance of getting picked up by another province. Unlikely though it may be right now all it takes is one or two success stories and it becomes a valid pathway for players...

theVersatile

NewWay82 wrote: »

What do you mean munster are naturally more Conservative when it comes to young players? You make it sound like they have to be. Ahearn should be playing now. Jenkins is a stupid signing and shows munsters lack of faith in a younger Irish player.

Given the choice - would you play Jenkins or Ahern against Toulouse?

Yeah_Right

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

If as is happening at the moment where only fringe or second choice players are moving between provinces it means that the strongest provinces, ie those with the bigger populations get to keep the best players and the gap remains.
It's the natural inequality of a capital city and population density. It's fairly obvious those supporters who don't want to admit to that advantage and why they don't.

What you say makes sense but it isn't necessarily true. I can think of 2 examples in rugby that counter your argument.
The Crusaders region is probably the 4th largest in terms of population in NZ yet they are the most successful SR side. The Brumbies have probably been the best Aussie side over the years but Canberra is the 6th or 7th largest city. How do you explain that?

sebdavis

theVersatile wrote: »

Given the choice - would you play Jenkins or Ahern against Toulouse?

Ahern is 21 now. James Ryan was 21/22 when he played for the Leinster/Ireland in 2017/18 season.

Who would you have picked to play at 9? Casey or Murray? I would go with Casey myself even before the game

Clegg

It's a bit unfair to compare Ahern to Ryan. The latter made his test debut before his provincial one and was essentially a world class player in his first season of professional rugby. Ryan is almost unique in an Irish context. We haven't had a young player come in an make such an impact at the highest level since maybe BOD? And that was over 20 years ago.

Richie_Rich89

Clegg wrote: »

It's a bit unfair to compare Ahern to Ryan. The latter made his test debut before his provincial one and was essentially a world class player in his first season of professional rugby. Ryan is unique in an Irish context. We haven't had a young player come in an make such an impact at the highest level since maybe BOD? And that was over 20 years ago.

Yeah, plus Leinster only picked Ryan as first choice when Fardy withdrew from the lineup for the home game against Montpellier. Ryan was a guy who'd go on to be a starter in the Grand Slam-winning 6N side just a few months later but Leinster thought he should be behind Fardy (who had played nearly all his international rugby in the backrow) and Molony.

jacothelad

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Isn't there 2 Leinster players studying medicine at the moment.

Like where else can they do that in Ireland?

Queens....

NewWay82

I'd pick Ahern all day. Are you saying you know anything about Jenkins bar what you checked out on YouTube for the last week. I'd have picked Ahern for Toulouse yesterday, our second rows beside Beirne aren't up to much. Ahern has serious potential. The rest are just average now.

TRC10

theVersatile wrote: »

Given the choice - would you play Jenkins or Ahern against Toulouse?

If that's the mindset, why bother with an academy? The easy thing to do is buy journeymen from overseas when a player retires. There'll always be a South African in their mid 20s who is better than the promising 21 year old. But that's not a sustainable or successful model. At some stage, you have to back the youth, which is something Leinster and Ulster been far better than Munster at in recent times.

Kirk Van Houten

TRC10 wrote: »

If that's the mindset, why bother with an academy? The easy thing to do is buy journeymen from overseas when a player retires. There'll always be a South African in their mid 20s who is better than the promising 21 year old. But that's not a sustainable or successful model. At some stage, you have to back the youth, which is something Leinster and Ulster been far better than Munster at in recent times.

Yes and for Ulster in the forwards it's been players that havent made it in the Leinster set up.
Tonight there's not one homegrown Ulster player starting in their pack.

Former Former Former

jacothelad wrote: »

Queens....

Hey, it's their lifestyle choice and we need to respect that.

thomond2006

TRC10 wrote: »

If that's the mindset, why bother with an academy? The easy thing to do is buy journeymen from overseas when a player retires. There'll always be a South African in their mid 20s who is better than the promising 21 year old. But that's not a sustainable or successful model. At some stage, you have to back the youth, which is something Leinster and Ulster been far better than Munster at in recent times.

Ulster from 1 through to 10 this evening will have nobody produced by Ulster. (Henderson is injured).

They haven't even had the youth available, never mind backing youth. So I'm bemused at that comparison.

Random Bloke

thomond2006 wrote: »

https://www.ul.ie/medicine/
https://www.ucc.ie/en/ck791/
https://www.qub.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/medicine-mb-a100/
http://www.nuigalway.ie/medicine/#:~:text=The%20School%20of%20Medicine%20at,is%20renowned%20across%20the%20world.&text=Our%20School%20has%20been%20awarded%20the%20Athena%20Swan%20Bronze%20Award.

:pac:

Fact check fail here. UL do not offer an undergrad medicine degree. Their medicine programme is for graduates only.

thomond2006

Random Bloke wrote: »

Fact check fail here. UL do not offer an undergrad medicine degree. Their medicine programme is for graduates only.

Fair enough. I'll revise my standards.

I've heard a few rumours of this WhatsApp voice note floating around supposedly from an AIL coach in Limerick berating Munster Rugby and giving details on some internal issues.

Seen it mentioned on the Independent now.

Can anyone give the jist of what is supposedly said?

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/munster-rugby/disconnected-clubs-academy-issues-and-a-dominant-neighbour-how-munster-fell-behind-their-rivals-40271576.html

Dubinusa

Karl Martin just ascended to France! Why? Would he not be offered a contract at another province? A lad from Munster just signed with Pau! He was not good enough for Munster? Paul Boyle has blossomed at Connacht. He was passed on by Leinster. Aungier left Leinster also and his future looks bright.
This whole Leinster has the advantage is kind of a smokescreen. Where was the advantage the noughties? A skim of the Connact personnel shows that there substantial amount of Leinstermen in the squad. The same with Ulster!
It may turn out that young lads may just leave Ireland and go to France or England. The academy salaries are miniscule, so why move? There's plenty of lads in Leinster available for academy spots. One just went to Ospreys!

thomond2006

Dubinusa wrote: »

Karl Martin just ascended to France! Why? Would he not be offered a contract at another province? A lad from Munster just signed with Pau! He was not good enough for Munster? Paul Boyle has blossomed at Connacht. He was passed on by Leinster. Aungier left Leinster also and his future looks bright.
This whole Leinster has the advantage is kind of a smokescreen. Where was the advantage the noughties? A skim of the Connact personnel shows that there substantial amount of Leinstermen in the squad. The same with Ulster!
It may turn out that young lads may just leave Ireland and go to France or England. The academy salaries are miniscule, so why move? There's plenty of lads in Leinster available for academy spots. One just went to Ospreys!

The reality is Leinster will keep who they want to keep. There will be occasions where they get stung (they didn't want to release both Aungier and Salanoa IIRC) but overall there's very few departures from Leinster that hurt them.

Paul Boyle was passed on by Leinster but the players kept instead of him are internationals now.

molloyjh

Esteban Teeny Corner wrote: »

I've heard a few rumours of this WhatsApp voice note floating around supposedly from an AIL coach in Limerick berating Munster Rugby and giving details on some internal issues.

Seen it mentioned on the Independent now.

Can anyone give the jist of what is supposedly said?

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/munster-rugby/disconnected-clubs-academy-issues-and-a-dominant-neighbour-how-munster-fell-behind-their-rivals-40271576.html

Its behind a pay wall so only saw the start of it, but it reads as though it's an AIL coach based in Dublin talking about the mess of a set-up in that club.

Hedgecutter

Esteban Teeny Corner wrote: »

I've heard a few rumours of this WhatsApp voice note floating around supposedly from an AIL coach in Limerick berating Munster Rugby and giving details on some internal issues.

Seen it mentioned on the Independent now.

Can anyone give the jist of what is supposedly said?

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/munster-rugby/disconnected-clubs-academy-issues-and-a-dominant-neighbour-how-munster-fell-behind-their-rivals-40271576.html

Ya I heard about this call. Haven't read the artical or heard the WhatsApp message.

Be interesting the hear whats said.

Dunno if it's been posted but Exeter game is 530 on Saturday.

Edit, wrong thread clearly

Caranica

Kenya Tasty Peacock wrote: »

Dunno if it's been posted but Exeter game is 530 on Saturday.

Munster aren't playing?

Caranica

Caranica wrote: »

Munster aren't playing?

Wrong thread, apologies

FrannoFan

Esteban Teeny Corner wrote: »

I've heard a few rumours of this WhatsApp voice note floating around supposedly from an AIL coach in Limerick berating Munster Rugby and giving details on some internal issues.

Seen it mentioned on the Independent now.

Can anyone give the jist of what is supposedly said?

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/munster-rugby/disconnected-clubs-academy-issues-and-a-dominant-neighbour-how-munster-fell-behind-their-rivals-40271576.html

Just talking about Shannon and the internal politics of head coach, assistant coach, looking for a forward coach claims got no offers nothing that interesting other than the internal working of a club that sounds a bit of a mess.

Safe to say if it's even partially true and you were pinning your hopes of the AIL reviving munster fortunes you'd be waiting

Cookiemunster

Shannon being a shambles over the last number of years is a long way from being news.

Sir Guy who smiles

NewWay82 wrote: »

By the time he gets in the Ireland team(2/3 years) he'll be on the wane athletically.

At 25?

thomond2006

GUINNESS PRO14 RAINBOW CUP FIXTURES

R1 – Weekend of April 24, 2021
Leinster v Munster

R2 – Weekend of May 8, 2021
Munster v Ulster

R3 – Weekend of May 15, 2021
Munster v Connacht

Round 4: Weekend of May 29.
Round 5: Weekend of June 5.
Round 6: Weekend of June 12.
Final: Weekend of June 19.