Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

Lsdrugbyfan

sprucemoose wrote: »

isnt he a back row?

Yep, but he'd be an incredible hooker.

sprucemoose

Lsdrugbyfan wrote: »

Munster aren't going to win anything with the following players being starters: Niall Scannell/Kevin O'Byrne, John Ryan/Stephen Archer, POM.

thats a bit harsh, especially on POM

Lsdrugbyfan wrote: »

Yep, but he'd be an incredible hooker.

why would you convert him to a position hes probably never played before when hes obviously a very talented back row?

Lsdrugbyfan

sprucemoose wrote: »

t
why would you convert him to a position hes probably never played before when hes obviously a very talented back row?

Because he could be better there.

sprucemoose

sprucemoose wrote: »

why would you convert him to a position hes probably never played before when hes obviously a very talented back row?

It's done elsehwere semi regularly for shorter 8s look at Malcom marx. I'd imagine the argument is a world class hooker is rarer for us than a world class back row

arsebiscuits1

sprucemoose wrote: »

why would you convert him to a position hes probably never played before when hes obviously a very talented back row?

Worked extremely well for Dave Heffernan.

He was a back row all through underage including 20s.

5 International and 143 provincial caps is a good return.

And Kendallen is unquestionably a better athlete

sprucemoose

Lsdrugbyfan wrote: »

Because he could be better there.

if my grandmother had wheels she could have been a bike

Alistair Colossal Sonar wrote: »

It's done elsehwere semi regularly for shorter 8s look at Malcom marx. I'd imagine the argument is a world class hooker is rarer for us than a world class back row

that is fair enough i suppose, there is a surplus of young back rows coming through too. however im always skeptical of late(r) transitions by players to technical positions, building up confidence and ability in something like throwing can be a very tricky aspect of it. i seem to remember keith wood suggesting leamy should be made into a hooker for some reason, maybe centre was a compromise

TRC10

It's definitely not something that should be dismissed out of hand.

Stuart McInally converted aged 23 and won 40 caps as a hooker and would have gone on a Lions tour if the years fell differently.

So yeah I definitely wouldn't just write it off

Tom Youngs was a bloody centre until 21 and was the starting Lions hooker in 2013.

sprucemoose

TRC10 wrote: »

Stuart McInally converted aged 23 and won 40 caps as a hooker and would have gone on a Lions tour if the years fell differently

........i have to say i disagree with you on that, bang average at best and wouldnt get near any of the other 6N squads.

Youngs is one who has done well enough, bit unlucky to not kick on after the lions in 2013 and has been fairly solid in a poor LT set up over the last few years. Titterall wasnt too bad either but i think the english hype train built him up a bit too much

Cian healy went the other way and arguably scrummaging at LH is probably a more difficult skill to learn than throwing. so im not saying it cant be done, i would just be threading very carefully. if AK is captaining the irish U20s then he obviously is quite a talent, i would be dubious about showing him into a new position just because we have a gap to fill

TRC10

sprucemoose wrote: »

........i have to say i disagree with you on that, bang average at best and wouldnt get near any of the other 6N squads.

Youngs is one who has done well enough, bit unlucky to not kick on after the lions in 2013 and has been fairly solid in a poor LT set up over the last few years. Titterall wasnt too bad either but i think the english hype train built him up a bit too much

Cian healy went the other way and arguably scrummaging at LH is probably a more difficult skill to learn than throwing. so im not saying it cant be done, i would just be threading very carefully. if AK is captaining the irish U20s then he obviously is quite a talent, i would be dubious about showing him into a new position just because we have a gap to fill

Nah I get that completely. I'm not saying it should be done or anything, but it's worth keeping an open mind on because it has been done very successfully in the past and Kendellan looks like a player who could do it very well.

McInally was also quite a talent as a back row and played u20s 3 years in a row. I disagree with you about him being average. I thought he was excellent from 2018-2019 and definitely in the top 3 hookers in the home nations in that period.

https://youtu.be/G0VIbq830js

Former Former Former

CJ Stander was (allegedly) told he was too small to be a back-row and should move to hooker.

On the other hand, Richardt Strauss definitely was too small to be a back-row and made a great call switching.

Like, I see the appeal, but if it doesn't work, the guy's career is over.

Lsdrugbyfan

it's never going to happen, Munster aren't that creative.. they'll probably try sign Dan Sheehan or some south african instead to upgrade their hooker options.

Lsdrugbyfan

Former Former Former wrote: »

CJ Stander was (allegedly) told he was too small to be a back-row and should move to hooker.

On the other hand, Richardt Strauss definitely was too small to be a back-row and made a great call switching.

Like, I see the appeal, but if it doesn't work, the guy's career is over.

Is it really?

If he fails at converting, he can just move back to backrow.

TRC10

Former Former Former wrote: »

CJ Stander was (allegedly) told he was too small to be a back-row and should move to hooker.

On the other hand, Richardt Strauss definitely was too small to be a back-row and made a great call switching.

Like, I see the appeal, but if it doesn't work, the guy's career is over.

Can you give any examples of a top back row prospect's career ending, after failing to transition to hooker?

Anyway, if it's going to be done, it won't be just decided out of the blue. He'll have practiced throwing and scrummaging in Munster training and if he shows promise he'll go on loan to the championship. If it's clear he can't do it, they won't try it.

thomond2006

Lsdrugbyfan

TRC10 wrote: »

Can you give any examples of a top back row prospect's career ending, after failing to transition to hooker?

Anyway, if it's going to be done, it won't be just decided out of the blue. He'll have practiced throwing and scrummaging in Munster training and if he shows promise he'll go on loan to the championship. If it's clear he can't do it, they won't try it.

if he shows promise.. he will play there for Munster A and they'll see how it goes.. he won't be loaned to the championship.

TRC10

Lsdrugbyfan wrote: »

if he shows promise.. he will play there for Munster A and they'll see how it goes.. he won't be loaned to the championship.

Yeah whatever, where he goes to make the transition isn't the point.

The point is they won't do it unless they've laid the groundwork and they're 90% sure he can make the switch. The idea that his career will be over is just crazy.

Anyway, can't see Munster doing it. It would literally be the most un-munster thing ever.

arsebiscuits1

Former Former Former wrote: »

CJ Stander was (allegedly) told he was too small to be a back-row and should move to hooker.

On the other hand, Richardt Strauss definitely was too small to be a back-row and made a great call switching.

Like, I see the appeal, but if it doesn't work, the guy's career is over.

It's a gamble both ways though.

He may not live up to his potential at backrow. Can be a multitude of reasons. Competition for places, size issues, plateauing at a lower standard, bad lower limb injury which is statistically more probable in the back row.

We've seen it with countless underage stars.

Hooker may well be the making of him.

Ultimately there are people a lot more qualified to make that decision and I hope he is reliably quided.

While the hype around him is real, the hype around Hodnett and Jack O'Sullivan was equal at this age grade. Competition for places at 2 is significantly less at present

Jump_In_Jack

Scannell, O'Byrne, Barron and Buckley.
Hooker is not a problem.

Lsdrugbyfan

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Scannell, O'Byrne, Barron and Buckley.
Hooker is not a problem.

Yes it is.

thomond2006

We'll sign Sheehan if we feel like it. Deal with it.

arsebiscuits1

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Scannell, O'Byrne, Barron and Buckley.
Hooker is not a problem.

I don't think anyone is saying it's a problem.

Are those 4 really going to win you trophys?

Not saying Kendallen will.

But like Scannell (29) is the only one internationally capped. And likely the only one who will be.

KOB is 30.

Barron is 25 and has played no European rugby in a total of 13 games in 3 seasons.

Possibly Buckley comes good but I'd be looking at the other 3 options and seeing a pretty easy route to first team rugby

Jump_In_Jack

Lsdrugbyfan wrote: »

Yes it is.

No it's not. :rolleyes:

Former Former Former

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

It's a gamble both ways though.

He may not live up to his potential at backrow. Can be a multitude of reasons. Competition for places, size issues, plateauing at a lower standard, bad lower limb injury which is statistically more probable in the back row.

We've seen it with countless underage stars.

Hooker may well be the making of him.

Ultimately there are people a lot more qualified to make that decision and I hope he is reliably quided.

While the hype around him is real, the hype around Hodnett and Jack O'Sullivan was equal at this age grade. Competition for places at 2 is significantly less at present

For sure - I think this is a stupid idea FWIW.

If the guy is a back row, let him stay there. With Stander gone and POM almost 32, there is a real need for high quality lads to come through right across the backrow. Yes, we need more hookers too but let's see how the young guys work out there too.

Former Former Former

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

No it's not. :rolleyes:

It's not a crisis, but none of the Munster hookers are really top quality players.

Jump_In_Jack

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I don't think anyone is saying it's a problem.

Are those 4 really going to win you trophys?

Not saying Kendallen will.

But like Scannell (29) is the only one internationally capped. And likely the only one who will be.

KOB is 30.

Barron is 25 and has played no European rugby in a total of 13 games in 3 seasons.

Possibly Buckley comes good but I'd be looking at the other 3 options and seeing a pretty easy route to first team rugby

Come off it. What age were Sean Cronin and Rory Best at the last world cup?
It's a nonsense thing to throw out there, we have two very good hookers, and one young senior prospect and one academy prospect.
If we needed more we would have kept Marshall, but we didn't.

thomond2006

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Barron is 25 and has played no European rugby in a total of 13 games in 3 seasons.

Barron is 22. Plenty of time for him to develop.

arsebiscuits1

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Come off it. What age were Sean Cronin and Rory Best at the last world cup?
It's a nonsense thing to throw out there, we have two very good hookers, and one young senior prospect and one academy prospect.
If we needed more we would have kept Marshall, but we didn't.

It's not a case of what age they were. It's a case that they'd made their Ireland debut - something that the likes of KOB hasn't made nor will he.

Best made his international debut at 23 and Cronin at 23 also. At the 2019 RWC they were the first and second most Irish capped hookers showing they'd been consistent internationals for the previous 10+ years.

No current Munster hooker has anything close to this luxury.

If you can actually look at yourself in the mirror and say with a straight face that Munster don't need more quality at hooker and it's not a position of concern then I don't think there's any point continuing this discussion.

arsebiscuits1

thomond2006 wrote: »

Barron is 22. Plenty of time for him to develop.

Correct. Mistype on my part.

Former Former Former

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Come off it. What age were Sean Cronin and Rory Best at the last world cup?

33 and 37 respectively. The massive difference is that they had been internationals for 10 and 14 years at the time, with 70 and 120 test caps.

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

It's a nonsense thing to throw out there, we have two very good hookers, and one young senior prospect and one academy prospect.
If we needed more we would have kept Marshall, but we didn't.

It's not nonsense. If the young guys come through, great, but Scannell and KOB are not of the required quality, and Marshall certainly wasn't either.

Lsdrugbyfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Barron is 22. Plenty of time for him to develop.

develop into what? an uncapped 30 year old hooker?