Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117655#Comment_120117655

We’re lucky to have him and a real talent ….but what’s he’s best position …doing a fine job at 12 whilst everyone seems to think he’s a 10

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120163#Comment_120120163

personally i thinks hes absolutely a 10.

its not unusual for out halves (especially physical ones) to be introduced to senior rugby by playing them as 12's (similarly centres sometimes debut on wings etc) and i think thats whats happening with Crowley currently. i definitely see him as a long term 10 though.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120055#Comment_120120055

I'd tend to agree - Butler should be given every reasonable opportunity to play over the rest of the season.

He's going to be in the match day squad for the first 2 or 3 months of next season with World Cup commitments to others so might as well get him game time now.

starkid

fair play to him but i think Munster and the IRFU will come to rue this long term.

phog

The one thing Rowntree has shown is, if he thinks you're good enough he'll select you.

I'm sure Butler is in his thoughts for the Benneton game but Rowntree could wait & see who is released back to the provinces too.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120266#Comment_120120266

It'll essentially be FLannery, Butler and Scannell covering 10 during the RWC right? (Assuming Crowley makes the squad).

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120052#Comment_120120052

Ah he is untouchable. He is consistently brought back into the squad in embarrassing U-turns by Townsend after utterly unacceptable behaviour, helping to fester the toxic atmosphere in the Scottish squad. But that's how much pressure there is to select him for some godforsaken reason.

Healy will be doing well to get into the RWC and that should be seen as a success. After that its all to play for when he is in the Edinburgh team.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120509#Comment_120120509

I believe so.

Butler is the only 10 in the Academy.

Eod100

"On the injury front, there is good news for Diarmuid Barron (shoulder) as he has returned to full team training.

Roman Salanoa was removed with an arm injury during the win over Northampton and will be managed by the medical department. His availability for Toulouse will be determined later in the week.

Jack Crowley is being managed following an ankle injury sustained against Northampton and his availability will also be determined later in the week.

Simon Zebo suffered a low-grade knee injury in training last week and is not available this week as he rehabilitates with the medical department. His injury is not expected to be long term.

Continuing to rehab: Jeremy Loughman (thigh), Tom Ahern (shoulder), RG Snyman (knee), Fineen Wycherley (shoulder), Paddy Kelly (head), Jack Daly (knee), Andrew Conway (knee), Keynan Knox (knee), Kiran McDonald (arm)." https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2023/01/17/squad-update-munster-prepare-for-toulouse-trip/#post

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120579#Comment_120120579

A bit like Ireland There really is nobody pushing him for that starting 10 jersey from the incumbent, it will be interesting to see if healy can do so.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120121256#Comment_120121256

sexton is a very good 10 though whereas russell might be one of the most overrated players of the last few years - he can look like a world beater behind an extremely dominant pack but he is the definition of a 'yeah but can he do it on a rainy night in stoke?'-type of player.

hastings is a very underrated player, not as flashy as russell but he is more likely to actually steer his team to a win.

why klinghorn is being played at 10 is beyond a mystery to me

could easily see ben healy being part of the matchday squads very soon

Brief_Lives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120509#Comment_120120509

Flannery? isn't he in Ulster?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120121527#Comment_120121527

Talk of him re-signing for next season. Not sure if official yet.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120121323#Comment_120121323

Yea, The incumbent and their suitors are all a few steps down the ladder in Scotland compared to Ireland. healy is on the Scottish ladder when he couldnt even make the Irish one and whats ahead of him is far more reachable, a decent international career of 30/40 caps is not a pipedream for Ben.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120352#Comment_120120352

A positive update on Tony Butler on his return from Injury.

This from the latest Academy update.

Tony Butler returned last week and played with Garryowen. He has taken the opportunity while out injured to really apply himself and come back much stronger and more powerful. That’s really what we want when a player is out injured, to focus on something else.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120121624#Comment_120121624

true but to be honest id have had healy up there for ireland when JS retires too all things considered. crowley could be the answer (and given the situation now i really hope he turns out to be) but hes playing alot at 12 at the moment and con played him at 15 mainly too afaik so the jury is still out on where his best position is for me. not a fan of carbury at 10 personally so id have healy ahead of him definitely and possibly crowley.

im a massive fan of ross byrne tbh, i think hes gotten absolutely shafted since his two starts for ireland were against england away in games where the rest of the team were rubbish too. he might not be the flashiest in attack but with the right players around him things could run like clockwork. obviously the penalty against aus is a recent highlight but he also came on for billy burns against france 2 years ago and nailed an even more difficult kick to keep ireland in the game. he has balls. his brother is made of glass seemingly though

frawley is a possibility but hes more likely to be a 12 - see hawkshaw and forde also

burns/madigan/carty arent realistic at this stage

its a real shame imo, if munster had given healy a proper go and not started carbery everytime he was available i think he could have pushed for an ireland place. all moot now either way and i hope he does well with scotland

phog

I can understand why some people might prefer one player over another but excluding Sexton two national & 2 provincial coaches have picked Joey ahead of the rest of what's available. I seriously doubt those 4 coaches got it wrong.

Maybe HB, RB, Frawley, Crowley or indeed Ben might come good but none have excelled enough yet to pass Joey out.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120122096#Comment_120122096

tom croft was a test lion......

sometimes coaches get it wrong

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120122179#Comment_120122179

sometimes coaches get it wrong

Yes indeed but 4 of them getting it wrong?

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120122179#Comment_120122179

He was a test Lion on two tours under two different coaches........

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120122230#Comment_120122230

i think schmidts hand was forced a bit because of the situation with the london irish player who wont be named.

van graan was van graan.....

yep farrell and rowntree are still picking him but i dont really know why tbh personally, i think theres probably an element of having backed him so far theyre stuck with him. i also think him being an automatic starter when available is having him as a ROG/Sexton-level player when he really isnt

but as i said, this is just what i personally think (although im not the only one). id be more than delighted to be proved wrong and for JC to lead munster and ireland to silverware. i just dont see it happening though

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120122310#Comment_120122310

Yes, you may be right and the 4 coaches are wrong.

I'm not convinced you're right

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120122698#Comment_120122698

hence why i said i personally think

munsters most impressive performance since JC joined was arguably with JJ Hanrahan at 10. carbery played well against a poor gloucester team early on and apart from that i dont think hes delivered in a big game (goalkicking apart). but thats just me and im not picking the team

kuang1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120122310#Comment_120122310

This is exactly my opinion too fwiw.

So much invested in Carbery by moving him to Munster to be 10, that it creates a reluctance amongst all coaches in Munster and Ireland to allow him to be usurped.

(and as hinted at earlier, everybody's hand in the Irfu was forced due to certain legal proceedings in the North at the time. Had it not been for that, Carbery would never have found himself as Sexton's understudy. Might still have been moved to Munster tho)

It's just the nature of the professional game. Any player is an asset, an investment. As their coach or mentor you want to see them reach their peak and stay there for as long as possible.

Injuries will halt the return on that investment. But if the investment has been substantial, high profile and prolonged, the powers that be are more likely to double down on it.

That's what's happened with Joey.

Crowley will be the next Munster long-term out half imo. (lack of injury permitting)

We'll all need to be a little bit patient though, and wait for the Carbery shareholders to finally pull out.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120123116#Comment_120123116

So much invested in Carbery by moving him to Munster to be 10, that it creates a reluctance amongst all coaches in Munster and Ireland to allow him to be usurped.

This argument is massively flawed because it overlooks the 18 months that Carbery missed after the World Cup.

In that time, any of the other guys could have staked a claim but they didn't. Not even close.

Carbery isn't the top class OH we hoped he would be but he's absolutely the best OH that Munster have, and it's up to Crowley now to displace him. JJ and Healy are absolutely light years off the pace.

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120122096#Comment_120122096

Fully agree there sexton is so far out in front of any other Irish 10 it’s worrying considering his age …there’s a gap to joey then there a gap back to the rest …Ross Byrne proably leading candidate ….Crowley despite all the talk of him been a 10 has played more top level rugby as a 12 and as mentioned earlier at 15 at ail….

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120123116#Comment_120123116

Crowley looks the part tbf but hard fathom all the people suggesting he is/will be an understudy to sexton now and future Munster 10…..most of his top level rugby is at 12 ….was ok v Australia last autumn but only ok looking any game time he has got at 10 for Munster

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120122179#Comment_120122179

Tom croft was a fantastic player who's career was cut short by injury.

There are many many other more applicable players you could have picked to make that point

sydthebeat

https://player.fm/series/rugbypass-offload/episode-60-cj-stander-why-he-turned-his-back-on-sa-the-real-reason-he-retired-so-young-the-bbq-disaster-that-nearly-killed-him

Today we're delighted to be joined by Irish legend CJ Stander as he takes us through the incredible highs and terrifying lows of his career which took him from Captaining South Africa U20's to becoming a legend in Ireland and Munster. After getting the lads thoughts on the controversial news surrounding Eddie Jones and Dave Rennie and having heard their theories around the England Six Nations squad coming and goings, we're treated to some of the greatest stories you'll ever hear as CJ relives his greatest moments.

From coming out of retirement to play in a charity match and nearly killing one of the opposition, to revealing for the first time why he really retired so young, to reliving the moment he decided he turn his back on South Africa, plus the terrifying moment he nearly killed himself when his BBQ exploded, his thoughts on Leinster, his terrifying school initiation, his stand our Lions memories and two hilarious stories from his early days attempting to settle in at Munster plus much much more.... we've got it all, so sit back and enjoy.

phog

https://twitter.com/Munsterrugby/status/1615711607098863616?t=G-v3U3SxyS3-ZP12mFSYFQ&s=19

Hopefully he'll be ready for action soon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124747#Comment_120124747

Sounds excellent, always came across as a very likeable guy.

Always interesting to me too to get the perspectives of the guys who come in from outside to become central players in Irish rugby, and how they contrast and compare Irish rugby to what they've come from.

razorblunt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120579#Comment_120120579

There's some absolute bullish desire to make Kinghorn their 10 no matter how awful he is. The edinburgh fans have run out of patience with him finally but he's still a darling of the SRU. Hopefully Healy doesn't fall foul of that like others have.

As an aside thanks to all for answering the Okeke query. Had no idea of any of those shenanigans. Missed it all entirely first time around too.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124806#Comment_120124806

I think there's a possibilty that Scotland are going to play a 6-2 bench in the World Cup, and they want Kinghorn to be able to cover out-half.

That's just my sneaky suspicion.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120123333#Comment_120123333

its very hard (nigh on impossible) to stake a realistic claim when carbery gets parachuted straight back into the starting team as soon as he is available. both JJ and healy had shown enough at various stages to warrant keeping the starting jersey and yet carbery would walk straight back into the team - JJ was player of the game against castres at home a few years ago and then gets benched the next week when carbery hasnt played for ages, that doesnt really strike me as picking on merit? .as i've said before, carbery is being made out to be a generational 10 like ROG/sexton when he is simply not, whether this is down to munster coaches or the irfu is unclear (id imagine a combination of both)

as ive also said before, id love for carbery to prove me wrong, but i dont see it happening unfortunately

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120123810#Comment_120123810

no ill stick with tom croft tbh, an incredibly overrated player imo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125382#Comment_120125382

So, just to be clear, you're claiming here that the Munster and Irish coaches, who, incidentally, have far greater access to the players, get all their data, watch them train, know them personally etc, and generally are best placed to judge the players, are deliberately selecting a guy who they think is inferior because of some nefarious conspiracy?

Why?

Why would that possibly be the case? Who's the great schemer behind this, Nucifora? Why would he give a f if Munster and Ireland's second out half is any of Carbery, Crowley or Healy?

Why would coaches, who's own performance, contracts etc are so closely linked to the performance of their out half, not select the guy who they think gives them the best chance to win?

This conspiracy stuff just keeps coming back up every couple of weeks.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125382#Comment_120125382

no ill stick with tom croft tbh, an incredibly overrated player imo

youve obviously made your mind up, so no real point arguing a subjective opinion, but youll find very, very few people who will agree with you that Tom Croft was an overrated player who didnt deserve to be a B+I lion.

He just has 4 premiership titles to his name, made the short list for World Player of the year in 2009, and has the honour of being the only B+I forward in the professional era to score two tries in a test game.

but yeah.. overrated....

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125382#Comment_120125382

 carbery is being made out to be a generational 10 like ROG/sexton 

What?? By who? Show me one poster, journalist or anyone who's made any such claim.

There is no logical reason why the Munster coaches would have stuck with Carbery after his injury lay-off if he wasn't the best option. The 'sunk cost' theory ceased to be any way plausible then (even though it never was in the first place).

He is first choice, and always has been, because neither JJH nor Healy were good enough. The fact that they're local lads and Carbery is a blow-in doesn't change that.

Absolutely bizarre that after ten years, people are still talking about JJ Hanrahan.

Brief_Lives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124747#Comment_120124747

Wilson is such a pain, Max and Marc are easy to listen to.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125508#Comment_120125508

To choose a middle ground, they don’t think he is inferior. They think that when he has sustained periods of health he is the second best outhalf in ireland.

To the average fan though, they see a guy who is average most of the time and gets injured the moment he finds form. I can understand the frustration. Basically, he has provided very little real value to munster over his time there. You pick based on projected value though, so he deserves to get picked.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125708#Comment_120125708

I'm not disputing he's been disappointing, compared to the potential he flashed when he first emerged at Leinster.

What I was disputing is that there is some conspiracy at play as to why he keeps getting starts. It's because as disappointing as he's been, the people who know the players best, and who have the most to lose by getting the decision wrong, still think he's the best option.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125734#Comment_120125734

Yea, agreed. It’s not a conspiracy. He has the incumbent advantage. You have to be clearly better to take his spot. But that’s how it works everywhere.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125708#Comment_120125708

why would you pick on projected form continually though? surely there has to be a point where you decide enough is enough and move on though? carbery hasnt really shown anything since his first season imo and yet hes a guaranteed starter still?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125512#Comment_120125512

by bringing JC straight back into the starting team everytime he is fit they are making that claim when he simply isnt that talented of a 10 for that to happen.

and that is rubbish that JJ or Healy were never good enough. at many times over the last few seasons both have being playing infinitely better than carbery

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125508#Comment_120125508

why were lancaster and cullen (correctly) convinced that he was a 15 so if thats the case?

nobody is saying there is some grand conspiracy (or at least im not), what im saying is that farrell/irfu see carbery as the next best option at 10 and are dictating that he is the starting 10 for munster when available and i , among others, disagree with this as he hasnt shown enough at 10 to warrant this.

the irish coach dictating to provincial coaches isnt unheard of, kearney was picked for leinster ahead of JC down to schmidts intervention and carbery was likewise on the bench ahead of ross byrne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126011#Comment_120126011

why were lancaster and cullen (correctly) convinced that he was a 15 so if thats the case?

They weren't, and he played a lot of games at 10 for Leinster that season. They just rated him that highly that they wanted to get him on the field as often as they could, so put him at 15 sometimes.

Another factor was probably because they had a pretty decent guy at 10 you might have heard of called Jonathan Sexton?

Former Former Former

IRFU absolutely aren't dictating Munster selection.

Why would they? It would be absolutely counter productive for both Munster and Ireland.

No. This is pure mental gymnastics.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126223#Comment_120126223

rob kearney has said they wanted carbery to take over from him at 15 but schmidt preferred RK. yes he played 10 a bit but he mainly played 15 even when sexton was injured because although carbery is a better player overall, byrne was/is a much better 10 than he is

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126011#Comment_120126011

carbery hasnt really shown anything since his first season imo and yet hes a guaranteed starter still?

I think the 4 games he put together after the Autumn Internationals were the best spell he's had in years, and certainly the best he's been since that period around Christmas in his first season at Munster (that included the Glouster game).

The Edinburgh away game in particular, he showed great character after an early mistake, and I think the last 60 mins of that game are as good as we've been in attack in years. Carbery was instrumental in that. (I think we scored 31 unanswered points).

During that 4-game period, he seemed to me to be taking to flatter and releasing it later than he previously had.

Bear in mind, I was someone who was very critical of him, and wanted Crowley to start ahead of him earlier in the season, particularly after the first Connacht game.

aloooof

I do think you have a bit of a point tho; the one that sticks out to me was the SF in the RDS in his first season where he was parachuted back in. In hindsight, that looked like a poor decision. But he had gone well earlier that season, so they obviously thought it was worth the risk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126264#Comment_120126264

So can you just confirm here please, that you are saying that for some reason, the Munster and Ireland coaches are being instructed to select Joey Carbery?

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126343#Comment_120126343

i should have said for munster in my original post, although i agree he was pretty good against edinburgh this season. my problem is that even allowing for his fitness issues, for me he hasnt shown a consistent high level of performance for munster to warrant building the backline around him. hes had some decent one-off performances but all of the other options have had similar if not better games so i dont think he should be an automatic starter

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120123333#Comment_120123333

When a player was the 'Next big thing' and the IRFU invest a lot of political capital to move him to Munster as the annointed replacement for Johnny Sexton, then they pick up a long term injury (while playing for Ireland). There is a huge reluctance to change the depth chart until that player comes back, especially if its in a period where almost all of the minutes were being given to Johnny Sexton and everyone else is fighting for scraps off the bench or against weaker teams in heavily rotated sides.