Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

Akrasia · 18-01-2023 9:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124977#Comment_120124977

I always thought if you're playing a 6-2 split, you'd need an out and out 10, and 9 on the bench, but those players can cover the back 5 between them, or the players on the field can be reorganised to cover centres and wingers/fullback

9 and 10 are pivotal positions, It's possible that your halfbacks could get injured or carded in the first few minutes of a game, and then you're stuck with a stand-in for the rest of the game.

This is why I think a lot of promising 10s get played in 12 and 15 while they're gaining match day experience. Not because the coach wants them to play in those places long term, but because they want them to be able to be brought on as cover for 12/15 if they're on the bench in a 6-2 scenario

The starting centres should be your best 12 and 13, but if the 13 goes off, it's easier for a specialist 12 to move to 13 and bring in cover at 12

Similarly, start your specialist full back at 15 and if he gets injured, you can bring on the 10 to cover 15 in a 6-2

The cover for 9 could cover the wings or FB (probably don't want them in the centre or they'd just be a speedbump)

sprucemoose · 18-01-2023 10:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126494#Comment_120126494

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126559#Comment_120126559

these are two of the most sensible posts ive seen in a while

18-01-2023 10:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126569#Comment_120126569

We have different definitions of sensible then on the first post.

The IRFU, much to the chagrin of Leinster management and fans, encouraged / facilitated a transfer of Joey Carbery to Munster to help solve two issues: (i) give a guy who looked like he might be the heir apparent for Ireland at the most important position the opportunity to really challenge Sexton and lead a team, (ii) help Munster out by transferring a guy who was a prize asset in Irish rugby at that time.

That said, I absolutely refuse to believe that beyond that there is any involvement from the IRFU/Nucifora in mandating Joey Carbery's selection. No self respecting coach would tolerate it, and it would absolutely have leaked if this were the case.

Furthermore, there would be absolutely zero logic behind it. Why would the IRFU, who's primary mandate is the success of Irish rugby, not want Munster and Ireland to develop and select the best possible player available?

The coaches who have consistently picked Carbery as first choice for Munster and second choice for Ireland have done so because they believe he is the best player available to them at that time. Any other kind of tinfoil hat theory suggesting otherwise doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Akrasia · 18-01-2023 10:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126343#Comment_120126343

I went very cold on Joey after the Connacht game, but to be fair to him, he as proven me wrong since then

Akrasia · 18-01-2023 10:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126569#Comment_120126569

..

sprucemoose · 18-01-2023 10:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126606#Comment_120126606

you said it was to the chagrin of leinster management and fans but you forget carbery didnt really want to move either, but cullen and lancaster wanted at 15 so his hand was forced

if you dont think the irfu/national setup has influence over provincial selection then youre very wrong in how you think the system works

'Why would the IRFU, who's primary mandate is the success of Irish rugby, not want Munster and Ireland to develop and select the best possible player available?' - not that i think this is the case, but its pretty easy to think of justification here if you wanted. for example, the irfu could have looked at the situation in 2018 and thought, okay munster arent going to be successful for the foreseeable future anyway so lets give them carbery, if he eventually comes good we get an option for the national team and if he doesnt, theyre not going to be winning anything for a while so theres no great loss. leinster have the byrnes for when sexton is injured so theyre fine - problem solved. do i think this is what happened - no, is it inconceivable - also no.

'Any other kind of tinfoil hat theory suggesting otherwise doesn't stand up to scrutiny.' - except for the fact that it has been confirmed by a number of people, rob kearney for one, that this kind of interference by the irfu does happen

18-01-2023 10:41pm

What are you claiming here that Rob Kearney supposedly said?

i don’t even understand what point you’re trying to make with your theory above on the rationale for the move.

you have repeatedly failed to post any credible theory for why the IRFU would be insistent that Munster / Ireland pick a player if those coaches think there is another Irish player there available who could do a better job.

What you’re proposing is a theory that actually calls all of the individuals involved’s integrity into question.

sprucemoose · 18-01-2023 10:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126805#Comment_120126805

kearney has said that the irfu intervenes in provincial selection from time to time, pretty simple

i have vague recollection of cullen mentioning it in a post-match interview previously too but i could be incorrect in that

also, given how the main irfu and the individual provinces work i dont see why you are so incredulous at the idea of them intervening? it is far from the realms of possibility

remember, this is an organisation that wanted to keep van graan.....

aloooof · 18-01-2023 11:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126559#Comment_120126559

I'd agree with a lot of that, but would have a small quibble with this:

Similarly, start your specialist full back at 15 and if he gets injured, you can bring on the 10 to cover 15 in a 6-2

It depends on the 10. Like, for example, I don't think Ross Byrne or Ben Healy would ever move to FB. In that scenario, you'd be relying on the players on the field to re-organise / cover it, like you mentioned.

Also, coaches often prefer to make a single change, rather than re-organising a number of positions, which is point against having an out-and-out 10 on the bench. (But I suppose that's exactly the point your making, for coaches player 10's at 12 and 15).

Former Former Former · 18-01-2023 11:30pm

The IRFU might intervene when an NIQ is depriving an IQ of game time. That might make sense. It would make no sense when both players are Irish.

This theory is predicated on the idea that JJ Hanrahan is/was good enough to be Munster's first choice and in the mix for Ireland. He isn't and never was and it's laughable to suggest otherwise. Ben Healy isn't and never was either, but he at least has time to develop.

sprucemoose · 18-01-2023 11:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127119#Comment_120127119

right well kearney and carbery are both irish-qualified so thats your first point out, although id imagine it would usually be the case yes

and i completely disagree regarding both JJ and Healy, but fine thats your opinion. i seem to remember consternation before JJ left for northampton as to why he wasnt starting in europe, id also argue he showed against castres at home and clermont away that he was good enough to be a starter for munster. healy against wasps would be a similar case

maybe neither of them showed it consistently enough but i wouldnt accuse carbery of consistency either to be honest

Akrasia · 18-01-2023 11:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127119#Comment_120127119

JJ was a kind of wildcard appointment. He was no longer thought to be international standard but he was brought in as 3rd choice cover behind Carbery and Bleyandaal. While Carberry was injured, it was a chance for Burns, Carty and Ross Byrne to overtake Carbery on the international scene, but inside munster, we had blown our budget on 2 10s who were almost never fit to be selected

Since 2021, we have seen Ben Healy graduate from the academy, and Crowley coming in directly behind him, while Carbery has finally found some fitness and has been given space to re-discover his match form at club and international level.

Rugby is a cruel mistress sometimes. Munster went years without having a fit 1st choice 10, and straight into having 3 fit international standard 10s and having to play academy players in the league before the 6 Nations (they pretty much confirmed Butler is either starting or Benching for the Benneton game during the press conference today)

Cookiemunster · 19-01-2023 10:11am

So after the 6N squad was announced are some still claiming that Munster have been picking Carbery over everyone else due to Irish management interference?

At least we won't have any issues finding a 10 to play during the 6N.

phog · 19-01-2023 10:13am

The Munster players named in the Irish 6Ns squad - Casey, Crowley, Earls, Murray, Beirne, Coombes, Kilcoyne & O’Mahony

As already mentioned Ben Healy is in the Scottish 6Ns Squad.

aloooof · 19-01-2023 10:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127896#Comment_120127896

Haley and Daly unlucky to miss out.

19-01-2023 10:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126817#Comment_120126817

Can you link to where Kearney said that?

My own view of it has been more akin to what @Former Former Former said above, that they will intervene possibly if NIQ players are obstructing IQ players, and obviously the protocols around player management.

The Irish coaches obviously influence provincial selection in the way Farrell et al. have been prepared to select guys who aren't first choice for their respective provinces, but I haven't heard of examples of IRFU or Irish coaches dictating a player must start, and I can see zero logic for why they would.

phog · 19-01-2023 10:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127899#Comment_120127899

Haley definitely but he's too alike to Keenan ands as Keenan is available then Farrell was always going to go with a utility back to cover FB. If Keenan was out injured I'd say Farrell would opt for Haley.

I'm still not fully sold on Daly - obviously Farrell likes him but atm I'd have Nash ahead of him.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 19-01-2023 12:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127925#Comment_120127925

I kind of thought the same until Farrell named 7 outside backs in his squad. With 7 there should be room for a dedicated back up fullback.

phog · 19-01-2023 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128576#Comment_120128576

I think Farrell has one eye on his RWC Squad and I'd be surprised if he ever thought of naming two dedicated FBs in his squad.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 19-01-2023 12:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128678#Comment_120128678

Fair

I'd say Earls and Stockdale are there as much to be in camp to know calls and patterns in case their form improves (and to be a leader in camp in Earls case) and I'd give a second dedicated 15 a spot for the same reason (to learn forms patterns and strategy) if I was going for such a large group of outside backs.

phog · 19-01-2023 1:10pm

JOD banned for 3 weeks

Jack O’Donoghue suspended for three weeks

The Munster Rugby back row, Jack O’Donoghue, has been suspended for three weeks following an independent Disciplinary Hearing arising from his club’s Heineken Champions Cup, Round 3 match against Northampton Saints at Thomond Park.

O’Donoghue was sent off by the referee, Tual Trainini (France), in the 23rd minute of the match for tackling the Northampton Saints second row, David Ribbans, in a dangerous manner in contravention of Law 9.13.

Law 9.13 A player must not tackle an opponent dangerously

Under World Rugby’s Sanctions for Foul Play, Law 9.13 relating to dangerous tackling carries the following sanction entry points – Low End: 2 weeks; Mid-range: 6 weeks; Top end: 10 to 52 weeks.

An independent Disciplinary Committee comprising Ian Unsworth KC (England), Chair, Nigel Williams (Wales) and Martyn Wood (England) heard submissions from O’Donoghue, who accepted the red card decision, from the Munster Rugby Team Manager, Niall O’Donovan, and from the EPCR Disciplinary Officer, Liam McTiernan.

The committee upheld the red card decision, finding that in carrying out the tackle in a dangerous manner, O’Donoghue had made contact with Ribbans’ head. It then determined that the offending was at the mid-range of World Rugby’s sanctions and six weeks was selected as the appropriate entry point.

As the player has a clear disciplinary record, and as there were no aggravating factors, it was decided to grant him the full 50% mitigation and the committee therefore reduced the sanction by three weeks before imposing a three-week suspension.

O’Donoghue is free to play on Monday, 20 February due to Munster Rugby’s fixture schedule, however, if he applies for and successfully completes a World Rugby Coaching Intervention, he will be free to play on Monday, 30 January.

Both he and EPCR have the right to appeal the decision.

Cookiemunster · 19-01-2023 1:15pm

2 weeks it is then. He'll miss Toulouse and Benetton and be back for the Ospreys.

Eod100 · 19-01-2023 1:17pm

Are the weeks done in terms of fixtures so 3 weeks means 3 matches?

Cookiemunster · 19-01-2023 1:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128841#Comment_120128841

Yes. It's 3 playing weeks.

Neil3030 · 19-01-2023 1:57pm

Frisch was always an outside shout, but I really feel for Haley. I get the logic behind the omission, but he's playing the rugby of his life and you just can't convince me that Ireland will be in better shape for the 6N without him in camp. Irrespective of eventual selections.

There are also more personal, man-management factors to consider. A guy ups his game like he has in the last 6 months, the head coach has to be more overtly responsive. For the sake of both that player's motivations and others' on the periphery.

19-01-2023 2:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120129056#Comment_120129056

I completely agree.

If Keenan were to get hurt, Haley is the guy who I would want to see in the Irish 15 shirt, and I would have thought he'd earned the right to be in there to show more.

I think he deserves to be in there ahead of Stockdale, who's form has been poor for Ulster this year.

oppiuy · 19-01-2023 2:10pm

Did anyone get six nations tickets from the ballot yet?

Neil3030 · 19-01-2023 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120129084#Comment_120129084

That's it as well. Haley is the second best full-back in Ireland right now and yet it's still a bit much to just call him up in the case of a Keenan injury and plop him straight into the starting role. There's a dynamic interplay of the wings and full-back in Catt's attacking system, and he'd need to get his reps in.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 19-01-2023 2:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128841#Comment_120128841

Game weeks. Another option would be to call him upto the Ireland squad and let him be banned through six nations weeks where Munster aren't playing.

England are releasing Farrell to Saracens the weekend after this one so he serves his ban for saracens instead of England.

Cookiemunster · 19-01-2023 3:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120129421#Comment_120129421

No need for any shenanigans. He'll do the coaching intervention course and be available to play on Jan 30th.

lawrencesummers · 19-01-2023 3:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120129113#Comment_120129113

Surley everyone knows that only committee members of the MRSC win that particular lottery annually.

phog · 19-01-2023 3:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120129623#Comment_120129623

I've never been on the MRSC committee and have won 6Ns tickets through their lotto.

sprucemoose · 19-01-2023 5:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127883#Comment_120127883

or they could just not be happy with how he played and they decided not to pick him in this squad?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127907#Comment_120127907

i dont have have his book to hand but he mentions it in that, hes mentioned it on virgin media too i think

i also have vague recollection of cullen mentioning similar in an interview when ross byrne dropped out of the squad for the euro knockouts in 17/18 having started a number of the pool games.

Jump_In_Jack · 19-01-2023 5:18pm

So, what kind of a squad do we have to choose from for a 23 that we could field without the Ireland players and players unavailable through suspension and injury, with a 6 day turnaround away to Benetton after Toulouse on Sunday:

Wycherley, N Scannell, Ryan,

O'Connor, Kleyn,

Kendellen, O'Sullivan, Hodnett,

Patterson, Carbery,

Daly, Fekitoa, Frisch, Nash,

Haley.

Replacements: Barron/Buckley, O'Connor, Archer/French, Hurley, ?, Cronin, R Scannell, Coombes/Goggin.

19-01-2023 5:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120130187#Comment_120130187

Presumably you won't have Ruadhan Quinn available to bench as he'll be with the Irish U20s.

I would have thought they'd start Scannell ahead of Butler at 10 given how little Butler has featured so far, but interested to see.

Think you've excluded Salanoa too (unless he's hurt)?

Neil3030 · 19-01-2023 5:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120130187#Comment_120130187

Should be more than capable of 5 points against a (presumably depleted) Benetton.

3,5,7,11-15 all arguably first choice.

19-01-2023 5:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120130187#Comment_120130187

One other edit on this - presumably you can start Joey Carbery at 10 now instead of Butler?!

Red Silurian · 19-01-2023 6:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128799#Comment_120128799

So he gets the same as Farrell... Ok then

snotboogie · 19-01-2023 6:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120130218#Comment_120130218

Think they may need to release Quinn or O'Connell for this unless someone comes back from injury. In the back 5; Ahern, Daly, Snyman, McDonald, Kelly, Wycherly, Edogbo and Okeke are out injured. Byrne, Coombs, O'Mahony, O'Connell and Quinn are on international duty and O'Donoghue is suspended. That leaves Kleyn, O'Connor, Hodnett, Kendellan, O'Sullivan and Hurley left to cover the 7 match day back 5 spots. Even the two sub academy guys Gleason and Sheehen are away with the 20's too.

On out half I assume Carbury will start

Jump_In_Jack · 19-01-2023 9:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120130218#Comment_120130218

Salanoa is injured at present

Jump_In_Jack · 19-01-2023 10:05pm

I’m just wondering, if stuck for a back row, could Chris Moore be played as a back row replacement perhaps, he hasn’t featured so far so he could be given a chance there to show something.

Or for that matter, Buckley could too.

There are surely a few guys in the AIL that could sub in too.