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Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,208 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Born in the maternity hospital on the Ennis Rd in Limerick if he's from Clare😁. I have great fun reminding my staunch Clare friends about their place of birth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,253 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Won't there be like two or three URC games during the RWC?

    Why would we need to sign anyone?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Cos we only have 2 senior 10’s for next season. And at least one of them is likely to be away for the RWC. Possibly both depending on injury.

    We need someone regardless of RWC anyways, but the need is obviously more acute when you’re down numbers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,013 ✭✭✭50HX


    In a non rwc year you have autumn internationals & 6 nations, that's over 8 weeks without a 10 or anyother position for that matter, can kinda get away with it in the backs or backroom, NIQ 10 all the way



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Why isn't Tony Butler in this discussion at all?

    Leinster have only 3 senior 10s for next season, and as it currently stands 2 will be at the RWC (injury permitting), leaving Harry Byrne as the only senior 10 in the squad.

    Ciaran Frawley (who may well be at the RWC himself) is a centre who can play 10, not unlike Rory Scannell.

    Leinster will likely turn to their two academy 10s during this window, but Munster won't?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,013 ✭✭✭50HX


    Barring injury I don't see frawley at the rwc

    Prendergast got his go last week & will be sheparded in over the opening rounds of urc nxt season

    Munster were not in a position to do that this year & realistically what leinster can do with squad rotation is an outlier



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    1) I have mentioned Tony Butler previously and

    2) The post you quoted literally says it’s not just for cover during the RWC. It’s very unlikely we enter the season with only 2 senior 10’s.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,265 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    if carbery comes back into the irish squad it might be a problem but otherwise it should be fine with crowley, carbery, butler and scannell if needed



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jcon1913


    I wouldn’t be panicking about this. I’d be surprised if Carbery retains any stature in the Ireland setup.

    For further details see my rant about the possible sainthood for Ross Byrne a few pages back.

    bottom line- I think the Ireland pecking order is Sexton,Ross Byrne then the rest. Carbery is possibly below Crowley in Munster- he’s hardly going to be 3 for Ireland ahead of Crowley if the latter is first choice for Munster.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,998 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    Archer was starting for Munster but John Ryan was getting picked for Ireland before. Bit ironic that Carbery was dropped for Ireland at a stage when he was in reasonably good form for Munster, and was consistently picked for Ireland when he probably should have been dropped.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Goddamit.

    POM made his Munster debut on Jan 2, 2010, i.e., a few days too late to have played in the 00's, and thus be still going strong in his third decade at the province.

    Completely arbitrary, in many respects, but "three decades of war" would have been such a fitting way to summarize his contribution to Munster.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,508 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Well Sexton has played his last game for Leinster. So that leaves Leinster with 2 senior outhalves. A centre who has played one game at outhalf in the last 3 years. A year 2 academy outhalf and a year one academy outhalf for the season. With Ross Byrne probably away with Ireland for the 6N.

    I would still say Leinsters choices are stronger but it’s still only 2 senior 10’s.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    A centre who has played one game at outhalf in the last 3 years.

    The full context here is that he’s a centre who was also being considered as an option at 10 for Ireland. (And indeed started some development games for Ireland there too).

    He’s a far more live option than Rory Scannell, who’s a break-glass option

    And even just numbers-wise, Leinster have more options.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jcon1913


    True. But the point is that it looks unlikely that the 2 munster 10s will be away on Ireland duty in the future. If Sexton is first choice, Ross Byrne second- hardly likely that both Crowley and Carbury will be called into the Ireland camp.

    if Sexton gets injured then that could change I suppose.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Sexton’s gone post-RWC. After that, or even with an injury for the RWC, it’s very possible both could be called into Ireland camp.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,377 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Why are people only focussing on the RWC (as an aside why are posters talking about Leinster players in a Munster thread) it has been mentioned a few times now that we (Munster) need a 3rd outhalf for the season, not just for the period of the RWC.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sorry, fair point of course! I was forgetting that Sexton is gone.

    So Leinster are in the same boat, two senior out halves entering the season.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Because sometimes it's necessary to talk about other teams for the sake of comparison, even if it means mentioning the dreaded Leinster in the precious Munster thread.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,377 ✭✭✭✭phog




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,253 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    All the provinces have two senior 10s next season.

    Connacht (Carty and Hawkshaw) and Ulster (Burns and Flannery) would seem to be in much greater need of a signing than Munster tbh.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    "...in the precious Munster thread".

    Mod: Any more of this and you'll be threadbanned again.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    🙄

    I'm not being a dick.

    Munster fans are repeatedly making an argument that Munster are in some sort of especially weak position that of course necessitates going out and spending money (the favoured option generally over the past 10 years), when others are rightfully highlighting how their situation isn't different to the other provinces.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Not when you factor in the Ireland context; you'd imagine one or both of Crowley and Carbery are far more likely to be involved with Ireland than the Connacht and Ulster 10's.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    It is different tho; Crowley and Carbery are (very likely) higher up the Ireland pecking order than the 10's at Ulster and Connacht.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,377 ✭✭✭✭phog


    For balance, here's the current list of outhalfs by URC Squad

    We know Munster are losing Ben so why wouldn't we be looking at replacing him if the majority of teams are using more than 3 in a season.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Lies, damned lies and statistics.

    So you're including Frawley presumably for Leinster, even though he's started two games at 10 in 3 years, but not Rory Scannell at 10 for Munster?

    Of the other 5 actual outhalves for Leinster, one has likely already played his last game for Leinster, and two of the others are year 1 Academy players at present. The two remaining are as likely to be in Ireland squads post-JS as the two Munster outhalves.

    Your 4 Connacht out halves includes Conor Fitzgerald who is leaving this season and Harry West (a Year 1 Academy player).

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    So you're including Frawley presumably for Leinster, even though he's started one game at 10 there in 3 years, but not Rory Scannell at 10 for Munster?

    Is there an equivalance here tho? You might have the stats available, I'd be interested to know how many total starts Frawley has and how many of them have come at 10? And the same for Scannell.

    I don't imagine they're comparable tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,253 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The flip side of that is that it means Munster have two good OHs. No offence to Flannery but if Burns gets an injury, Ulster are fncked.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    In which case, Munster may need to sign someone further down their depth chart who will likely cost a lot less. So, where's the problem?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,377 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I'm not including anyone.

    I took those numbers from the URC site so it's safe to assume that is what was submitted by their clubs and I provided those figures by way of balance as some posters want to include or exclude players to suit their argument.

    We had 4 outhalfs in this years squad which seems to be around average for URC clubs - I really don't see an issue with a few Munster fans are suggesting we should sign someone to replace Ben.


    Edited to add - Leinster themselves on their own website have Frawley listed as an Outhalf



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,253 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    There's no problem, but if three of the provinces are going to Nucifora looking for an NIQ journeyman at 10, they can't all be accommodated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,377 ✭✭✭✭phog


    This season, Cian Healy has probably spent more time playing hooker for Ireland than Scannell has played 10 for Munster, would anyone here class Healy as a Hooker?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    No disagreement there; but generally NIQ’s are sanctioned with the Ireland context in mind. Which seems pretty reasonable.

    There’s an obvious reason Leinster were allowed sign Ngatai, for example.

    In that regard, saying “all the provinces have 2 senior 10’s next season” isn’t really telling the full picture.

    Crowley and Carbery may not be starters post-Sexton. But they’re definitely further up the depth chart than the Connacht and Ulster equivalents.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No, but my point was, it's not realistic to classify either as a 10, and it's disingenuous to include Frawley and not Scannell.

    I don't know Scannell's numbers, but I think Frawley has started 2 games at 10 in the past 3 seasons; while starting more games at 15, and over 22 games at 12.

    I doubt Scannell has started at 10 for Munster in the same time period, but don't have the stats to hand beyond this season.

    Neither province clearly see those players as 10s it would appear, and the actual gametime speaks to this more than anything else. For comparison, Leinster have listed Ryan Baird as a lock on their website too, but he's started there once this season while starting 9 times at blindside.

    What is ironic here is that when Andy Farrell turned to Frawley as a 10 option (after Harry Byrne got hurt in NZ), it was predominantly Munster fans making the exact point I'm now making, that he has barely played any rugby at 10 in years, and isn't seen by Leinster as a 10. It can't be both ways.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I’ve had a look.

    Frawley has 35 starts for Leinster. 10 of them are from 10. Most of those earlier in his career, but he still had a start at 10 this season, prior to the EI tour (a large part of the focus for which seemed to be to try get more gametime into him at 10). He’s also started games at 10 vs the Māori too.

    Scannell, by contrast, has 134 starts for Munster and has started at 10 once. One solitary start back in 2015.

    As I said, Scannell is a break-glass option. There’s really no equivalence here.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He started versus the Maori because there was no other option after Harry Byrne got hurt - he was named as a centre on the Irish Rugby release for that tour.

    After he went relatively well there, clearly Andy Farrell and Co decided to take a closer look at him at 10, and intended to give him minutes at 10 on the EI Tour, but he got hurt against Benetton.

    He's started at 10 for Leinster twice in the past 3 seasons - while he came through as a young 10, clearly Lancaster and Cullen haven't ever really seen him as one.

    Once again - I'm not the one here trying to claim Rory Scannell is a 10, I'm just saying it's fairly clear Leinster don't really see Ciaran Frawley as one either.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Frawley has started 28% of his starts for Leinster at 10. The most recent of which was this season.

    Scannell has started 0.75% of his starts for Munster at 10. The most, nay, only one of which was in 2015.

    It’s pretty clear who is seen as more adequately able to cover 10. It’s not even close.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Once again - you're using statistics to paint a somewhat misleading picture, and it's beyond tiresome at this stage.

    Frawley only has 35 starts, so 10 sounds like a lot, until you break it down and realise 8 of those starts came prior to 2020. Saying the "most recent of which was this season", when 1 start was this season.

    And, fwiw, Scannell started twice at 10 for Munster, once against Dragons in 2015/16 and once against Cardiff in 2014/15.

    I'll make the same point I've made now though on about 5 prior occasions - I'm not arguing Rory Scannell is a 10 option for Munster. But I'm saying Ciaran Frawley is not credibly viewed as a 10 option for Leinster either. There is no other way to dress this up - he's started 2 games there in 3 seasons.

    So, if someone is going to list out options for teams at 10 next season, the fair and consistent thing to do would be to take the same approach, and exclude both of them.

    So, next season, Leinster will only have 2 senior OHs, the Byrne brothers, and 2 Academy OHs.

    Munster will have 2 senior OHs, and 1 Academy OH (though they haven't yet announced their academy intake for next year, and it very well could include Dylan Hicks.

    The two Leinster OHs are as likely as the two Munster OHs to be in the Irish squad as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,377 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Your issue should be with Leinster for how they list their players not with the poster that uses that list.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    But I'm saying Ciaran Frawley is not credibly viewed as a 10 option for Leinster either.

    At a minimum, he’s viewed as a centre who can adequately cover 10 when required. He wouldn’t have started a game there this season, with Ross Byrne on his he bench, if he wasn’t.

    You can’t remotely say the same thing about Rory Scannell over his Munster career. The statistics bear this out; that you find them tiresome doesn’t change them.

    So, next season, Leinster will only have 2 senior OHs, the Byrne brothers, and 2 Academy OHs.

    Leinster with have 2 senior OHs, a centre who can adequately cover 10 and 2 academy OHs.

    As it stands, Munster will have 2 senior OHs and 1 academy OH.

    The two Leinster OHs are as likely as the two Munster OHs to be in the Irish squad as well.

    Agreed, but you weren’t just drawing comparisons to Leinster. You specifically said the following, when it’s not the case:

    ..their situation isn't different to the other provinces.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Their situation isn't different to the other provinces either.

    You're choosing to focus on the Irish squad angle to it, but there are other factors than can have players absent too, such as injury. Billy Burns and Jack Carty have both missed a fair bit of time over recent seasons through injury. Injuries to either of them leaves them in a situation where they're relying on David Hawkshaw or Jake Flannery to play meaningful minutes, with the next in line for Connacht after that Cathal Forde (a centre who can cover 10) and Harry West (a Year 1 Academy player), and for Ulster Jake Flannery, Angus Curtis (centre who can cover 10) and Academy player James Humphreys.

    It's not a radically different scenario whatever way you spin it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,803 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Yeah. Luckily for munster they have Carbery, who has had zero injuries in the last few years.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    It is different tho.

    Munster have 2 10’s who are further up Ireland depth chart and injury factors you’ve mentioned apply to them too.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Injuries are a risk for all players. It's not a differentiator either.

    3 OH options (with potentially another player to be added to the Academy) is sufficient depth. The situation this year, with 3 OHs at a roughly similar stage of development and ability in Carbery, Crowley and Healy is more of an anomaly than the norm.

    What Munster should be asking themselves is why Tony Butler has only made 1 appearance total - off the bench against Wasps when two thirds of the team had COVID, in the past 2 seasons. Charlie Tector (less than 1 month older) has played 6 times for Leinster over the same period, while Sam Prendergast has more minutes for Leinster than Butler has for Munster.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    …while Sam Prendergast has more minutes for Leinster than Butler has for Munster.

    Timing is everything…



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Leinster don’t have 6 or if they do, Munster have 5.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,377 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I went to the URC site and counted the players that their clubs have listed as Outhalf.

    Munster

    Leinster

    If you or FtD have an issue with those figures take it up with the respective clubs



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah, heaven forbid we actually use our own common sense and critique those numbers to see if they make sense.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,377 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Use whatever you like, I've used and linked the figures supplied by the clubs.

    As I say if you have an issue take it up with them but you're wasting your time here trying to change them.



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