Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120772665#Comment_120772665

Zebo's comments were about his omission from selection while he was playing in France, despite the fact that he had been playing extremely well for Ireland. Zebo was the all time highest try scorer for Munster at the time he left, and he was a first choice player for Ireland in the year before he left, and yet the minute he announced his intention to leave Ireland, he was blacklisted from irish selection, while Sexton was allowed to leave and still play for Ireland

I think his comments were more to do with the unfairness that Sexton was included in the Irish panel while playing in France in the years prior to Zebo moving

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlvzo51xV0w&t=617s

Zebo was pretty honest about Schmidt's overly prescriptive training and his tough man management style, and how he didn't like how he was biased towards some players over others, and in hindsight, after the 2019 world cup, he was probably correct.

Former Former Former

Sexton left in 2013 at a time when overseas players were still being selected, and had additional release periods written into his Racing contract.

Zebo left in 2018 knowing full well he would no longer be picked for Ireland. He knew that and coming out afterwards like this was a surprise was disingenuous to say the least. There's simply no comparison, he might as well be complaining that Geordan Murphy could be picked while playing for Leicester.

He absolutely was not blacklisted once he announced his decision to leave. He'd already been dropped for Stockdale and even Munster eventually had to drop him, such was the collapse in his form.

No one here is likely to admit it but with the signing of Haley, Munster didn't really miss him, at least while Conway was fit. He was 31 when Racing let him go, he should still have been in his prime coming home, but it's been a whole pile of nothing.

Buer

A more accurate comparison would be Ian Madigan who went to France two years before Zebo. He was left out of the tour to SA once his time with Leinster was done despite Schimidt having a complete blind spot for him. He was called up when Sexton was injured and then played a total of 12 minutes across 3 tests and was never seen in green again despite us being fairly screwed for outhalves later that year.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120776350#Comment_120776350

He'd already been dropped for Stockdale

I don’t think that’s accurate tho, is it?

Like I said previously, he pretty much played every minute of the 6 Nations and the 2 All Blacks games in the season before announcing he was leaving.

In any case, Sexton was always far more important to Ireland and his was the case that established the rule, as much as anything.

I always thought Zebo’s comments were more about the prescriptive play moreso than not being picked. And I still stand by the statement he was first choice the season before announcing he was leaving.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120776696#Comment_120776696

I don’t think that’s accurate, is it?

Maybe I'm hazy on the exact sequence of events. Stockdale would have burned past him either way and Zebo would have been back in the stands.

Yes, he was first choice in the 2016/17 season. Unfortunately for him, this was as much about the lack of alternatives rather than Schmidt suddenly being converted

phog

What way are jersey fits with Adidas range, lose or tight fitting? Like I usually get away with XL, should I be adding an extra X.

I think I'll order the retro type jersey but hoping to avoid returns if I can get away with it.

Cookiemunster

Why don't you just wait until it's released next week and call into the store on William St? That's my plan.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120777460#Comment_120777460

That was my plan too but today I had a mild panic attack that they'd be sold out by the time I'd get to a store 😁

mun1

Can we move the tedious Ireland sh1te to its more appropriate thread please .

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120778619#Comment_120778619

That's a bit harsh.

Personally I'm enthralled by the unfolding drama about phog buying a jersey.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120778736#Comment_120778736

If anyone on Boards want to sponsor it they can meet me in the Crescent during the week and can add their name on the back of the jersey. There's loads of space so don't be shy 😁

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120778619#Comment_120778619

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120778736#Comment_120778736

in fairness, if it were in the middle of the season i might agree but since there isnt a whole pile happening at the moment sure what harm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120776828#Comment_120776828

Bit presumptuous. Zebos massively underrated by some hes one of the greatest finishers weve ever had

Neil3030

But would Zebo risk pre-ordering before checking the size of a jersey?

This is the true measure of a man....

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120776449#Comment_120776449

It’s a closer comparison but Zebo was significantly more important to Ireland than Madigan ever was.

I had a look at the stats and it’s borne out by that; Zebo has 29 caps, 24 of which were as a starter. Madigan has 30 caps but only 4 as a starter.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779771#Comment_120779771

The reason for that would be Sexton. If we had a generational wing in the team, that comparison might make sense.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779911#Comment_120779911

It still doesn't change the fact that Zebo was more important to Ireland than Madigan. (And Madigan was also behind Paddy Jackson for the majority of that time too, fwiw, so pointing to Sexton for his lack of starts doesn't tell the full picture either). But ya, Zebo a superior player, imo.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779523#Comment_120779523

The true measure of the man is XXL

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120777361#Comment_120777361

If you fit in any other brand as XL, then the Adidas Munster range will fit

They are generous with their sizing.

I put on some weight this year and ended up returning an XXL Munster shirt as it was way too loose

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120777460#Comment_120777460

Not everyone lives within a moomoo enrobed waddle of William street

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779407#Comment_120779407

Zebo is box office, not because of his hilarious social media profile, but because he was and still is a class finisher who can do things very few other rugby players can do

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779523#Comment_120779523

Zebo would be size Z

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780095#Comment_120780095

I never claimed they did. I'm pretty sure that Phog, who I was talking to, is close enough though.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780115#Comment_120780115

(It was supposed to be a joke)

Sorry the tone got lost in the internet

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779918#Comment_120779918

Was Zebo more important to Ireland? Maybe, maybe not, but they were both supporting cast members. They both had their biggest moments in green thanks to the absence of a better option. It's harsh but true, they were both players whose marketability was never matched by actual ability.

It's debatable but ultimately irrelevant who was more important, the key thing is that neither were remotely important enough for the IRFU to change their policy.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780249#Comment_120780249

Zebo had plenty of excellent games for Ireland, not least Soldier Field; he was exceptional that day. The only one that comes to mind for Madigan to me is the Ireland France RWC game.

I'm not arguing the IRFU should have changed their policy for Zebo. But he was a superior player to Madigan. For all the mention's of Zebo only starting due to a lack of competition, Madigan failed to get ahead of Paddy Jackson for large spells of his Ireland career.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780296#Comment_120780296

Zebo had plenty of excellent games for Ireland, not least Soldier Field

Yep, but again, he was pretty much there thanks to the absence of a lot of other guys. Fitzgerald had retired a few months previously, Bowe was injured, Earls, Dave Kearney, McFadden all injured... the only other outside back in the squad was Craig Gilroy.

Within a month, when we played Australia and Earls was back, Zebo was on the bench again. When he started all the games in the 2017 6N, we were similarly drastically short of options. He was never a genuine first choice.

I honestly don't know if he was better than Madigan. I'm not sure that's much of an achievement tbh. I do know that neither of them were hard done by once they chose to leave.

And I think both their careers after leaving these shores and after they returned vindicated the IRFU and their provinces completely.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780343#Comment_120780343

He was never a genuine first choice.

He played 394/400 minutes in the 2017 6N, keeping Bowe (x2), Trimble, Gilroy and Conway in the 23 shirt.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780343#Comment_120780343

And, conversely, when Sexton got injured, it was invariably Paddy Jackson that Schmidt would turn to; that’s a large part of the reason Madigan has only 4 Ireland starts.

The most obvious of which being the tour to SA; Jackson played every minute of all 3 Tests at 10. Madigan got a total of 12 minutes off the bench, at centre.

Whatever way you slice it, Zebo was trusted more than Madigan. It’s cos he was a better player.

Neil3030

Gas how arguments evolve on the Internet all the same.

"Munster players not getting selected by Ireland might start looking abroad"

becomes

"Madigan is/was as good as Zebo"

within.... a day or two?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780407#Comment_120780407

Keeping Craig Gilroy out wasn't a big achievement, and both Bowe and Trimble were on their last legs at that point, Bowe got 1 minute against Wales. None of them ever played for Ireland again, whereas Conway only made his debut in the last game of that 6N.

That 6N was not indicative of a major importance of Zebo to Ireland.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780442#Comment_120780442

And, conversely, when Sexton got injured, it was invariably Paddy Jackson that Schmidt would turn to; that’s a large part of the reason Madigan has only 4 Ireland starts.

To be clear, I don't care about Madigan, he was rubbish, but this just isn't correct.

Paddy Jackson started two games under Schmidt before Madigan announced his departure, Joe's first game vs Samoa in 2013 and an RWC warm up against Wales in 2015, whereas Madigan started a world cup quarter final. Even when things were going tits up in that QF, Jackson stayed rooted to the bench. Rightly or wrongly, Joe absolutely did not turn to Jackson more. He just didn't.

The SA tour is irrelevant because Madigan was already out the door. Schmidt decided he'd rather go on a three test tour to SA with only two out halves, rather than pick the guy about to go to France.

pickarooney

How I've missed these Zebo for Ireland conversations!

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780529#Comment_120780529

Maybe I’ve the timelines off. But the fact is Madigan didn’t just miss opportunities because of Sexton.

And if you’re going to cite injuries to Zebo’s competitors, it only seems fair to do the same for Madigan; for example, Jackson missed the entirety of the 2015 6 Nations thru injury.

During which, Keatley got a start vs Italy ahead of Madigan.

And as soon as Madigan was leaving, Jackson started all 3 Tests vs SA and showed more than Madigan ever did for Ireland.

The reality is, even tho they have comparable caps, Zebo has 3 times as many minutes. There’s a reason for that.

Sometimes the simplest answer is the best one. It’s cos he was a better player.

Eod100

Munster to play Crusaders confirmed on Saturday 3rd February. Venue not confirmed yet so could potentially be exploring PUC hosting it. https://twitter.com/Munsterrugby/status/1674312254953598976?t=vPcbNe-7D6VjPE8GLEYBMA&s=19

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780752#Comment_120780752

Great headline and then you see the date and realise it isn't going to be quite the clash of the champions after all.

Will still be a great occasion I'm sure.

Buer

They'll play Bristol Bears also, same as South Africa A last season which suggests there's some sort of arrangement in place behind the scenes with the same people arranging the fixtures. That bodes well for the future and potentially another similar game next season.

Cookiemunster

It's on a 6N weekend. (Ireland play in France on the Friday night). I hope it's an evening KO and doesn't clash with the other 6N games.

They're also playing Bristol the following Friday night.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780752#Comment_120780752

Another vanity fixture 😂

This type of event can only be good for Munster, helps with badly needed income, keeps lads not involved with Ireland focused during the international window and gives valuable development time to the wider squad.

I think it will also be very much a game the fans will want to get to see, I can see them trying out PuC again for this game.

Meh. Zebo had a higher ceiling but Madigan got a lot closer to his. Madigan had to contend with a generational talent / world player of the year in the same position, but it was his inability to push ahead of Gopperth or Jackson that put the writing on the wall. Zebo didn't have to deal with a Sexton sized obstacle in his career path to being an international back three, but when all options were fit it's hard to argue that he was first choice either.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780846#Comment_120780846

He was in competition with Ireland’s most decorated player in Rob Kearney tho.

You’d forget he was called up to the Lions as injury cover too. Madigan wasn’t remotely close to that conversation. (I don’t think it’s even all that close to suggest Zebo was a better player tbh).

But bringing some much needed levity to this place:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cK-y70B8hmM&pp=ygUMWmVibyBmb3JmZWl0

bennyl10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780788#Comment_120780788

Regardless if teams it’ll be a sell out in PUC, biggest club game possible for Munster.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779918#Comment_120779918

Personally I think you are splitting hairs and being overly precious about a player you are a fan of. I wouldn’t rate Madigan very highly as a player. Though comparing an outhalf to a wing, is a fairly futile exercise. Neither player was particularly important for Ireland. Both were very easy to replace.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781017#Comment_120781017

Personally I think you are splitting hairs and being overly precious about a player you are a fan of.

Ah c’mon Stephen, that’s very unfair. (It’s more than borderline playing the man not the ball).

Whatever way you slice it, 24 starts isn’t exactly a trivial amount. No, he was never Sexton levels of importance. But he had his importance to Ireland. Much moreso than Madigan.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780972#Comment_120780972

I think it could be played there too but I wonder because it clashes with the 6Ns could that have an impact on ticket sales. We have 3 home 6Ns games this year so anyone buying tickets for them might be somewhat cash strapped. We also have an extra game v The BaBas in the autumn in Thomond Park.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781033#Comment_120781033

But he had his importance to Ireland. Much moreso than Madigan.

Again - this is one of those things that I'd be inclined to agree with but I'm not sure is actually true. If Zebo was injured before any of the games he started for Ireland you wouldn't be immediately concerned by his lack of availability. It wouldn't dramatically weaken the team.

I can think of a good few starts Madigan had for Ireland where if he was similarly struck down you would be quite concerned, the World Cup quarter final being the most obvious one.

I think Zebo had a bigger influence on the game and was a more popular fan figure, but did he deliver more impact for the Irish team on the pitch? I don't think so.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780608#Comment_120780608

I never said he only missed opportunities due to Sexton. But you made a claim, the exact opposite of which was true.

You keep trying to argue Zebo was better. Grand. The post you replied to literally says "Madigan was shyte" so I'm not sure what battle you're fighting.

But Zebo was never an important player for us. Never. He was useful in an injury crisis but beyond that, there was always someone ahead of him.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780525#Comment_120780525

Ah, we've moved onto what's "important".

Well if you don't ascribe that to a player who featured in 10 of 11 possible internationals in a season (omitted only against Canada), you're in fairly select company.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781033#Comment_120781033

Indeed no, it would be fairer to compare him to Dave Kearney. Though Dave never left Ireland, so it’s not relevant either. Zebo was first choice for one 6 nations campaign. He really wasn’t that important to Ireland and even if he stayed, he would have been replaced by Stockdale the next year. You can split hairs about the relative unimportance in terms of Irish selection between Zebo and Madigan but the truth is, neither were that important. You could point to the fact Madigan started a World Cup quarter final. Where as Zebo didn’t play in any significant game in that World Cup. Again it still doesn’t change the point that neither were really that important to Ireland and them leaving made no difference to the national squad, except maybe to improve it.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781403#Comment_120781403

I can think of a good few starts Madigan had for Ireland where if he was similarly struck down you would be quite concerned, the World Cup quarter final being the most obvious one.

A good few? That’s just not true Venjur. It’s just not. I’ve tried to be completist here, and it looks like he had 6 starts in total for Ireland (according to ESPN; I previously said 4 but all rugby stats only go back as far as 13/14).

They were against:

Agentina, Canada, Romania, Georgia, USA and Scotland.

The Argentina game was the QF obviously. The Scotland game was a RWC warm-up.

So rather than the QF being the most obvious one, I’d suggest it is the only one.

Conversely, 22 of Zebo’s starts were against Argentina, Australia, England, France, NZ, Scotland, SA and Wales.

did [Zebo] deliver more impact for the Irish team on the pitch? I don't think so.

Going by the above stats, he very clearly did.