Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

mahoney_j · 30-07-2023 2:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120914931#Comment_120914931

Wasn’t rowntree that didn’t want Ben ….opposite is the case …..can’t say I agree with that synopsis

Former Former Former · 30-07-2023 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120915731#Comment_120915731

I'm sure Rowntree wanted him to stay but equally when Healy made the move, he was firmly third choice for Munster.

Can't blame the guy for taking a chance at first team club rugby and a shot at test caps. Fair play to him.

phog · 30-07-2023 7:10pm

Ben only became 3rd choice once it was obvious to Munster that they wouldn't have him next season, of course, almost immediately Joey took some sort of sabbatical and Ben got back into the matchday squads and proved his worth.

As I said earlier, it's a real shame we've lost him.

Akrasia · 30-07-2023 7:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120914931#Comment_120914931

Prove Rowntree wrong???

Ben was offered an extension. He wanted to play international rugby and Farrell was not interested. Thats why he left

50HX · 30-07-2023 10:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120917275#Comment_120917275

He's 24, he either thinks Farrell will be there post 2025 contract or he doesn't back himself to get ahead of lads in front of him.

Farrell goes, crowley or prendergast don't crack byrne dominance, a new coach might favour his style...its life

He made is bed in Scotland I hope it works for him

Former Former Former · 30-07-2023 11:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120917275#Comment_120917275

Yes.

Rowntree had Healy as his clear third choice out half. Healy chose not to take up the offer of a renewal as Munster third choice to give himself a chance to be Edinburgh first choice, with a bunch of nobodies as competition.

He'd have been mad not to grab it.

Rowntree made his choice. If it turns out to be wrong, he'll have to carry the can for it. I think he got it right tbh.

phog · 31-07-2023 12:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120918294#Comment_120918294

There's nothing to suggest Farrell goes anywhere in the short vto medium term.

There's no player going to sit around for a few years to see what happens.

Healy already turned down longer contracts with Munster while he waited to see what would happen with Ireland, the EI tour probably put the nail in the coffin as far his international options with Ireland were concerned.

He got an offer from Scotland, mulled it over and took it.

It's rewriting history to try and claim he left Munster because he was 3rd choice.

Akrasia · 31-07-2023 12:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120918294#Comment_120918294

Healy clearly went to Scotland to play international rugby. Farrell, unless he chooses to leave after the RWC is going nowhere so Healy went for guaranteed international caps over getting into a queue behind the likes of Frawley and Prendergast, neither of whom have done anything to earn their positions ahead of him.

Everyone knows this is why he left. It was the right call for him personally but Ireland and Munster are both weaker without him.

Cookiemunster · 31-07-2023 1:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120918646#Comment_120918646

Complete and utter rubbish. If Rowntree decided he was third choice at the start of the season, he wouldn't have started the first 4 games when Crowley and then Carbery were available. He was also on the bench for Leinster in the Aviva.

He'd previously twice turned down long term deals in favour 1 year deals after Scotland first came calling. He left to play international rugby. It's no coincidence that he signed the deal in Scotland shortly after talking to Farrell.

Rowntree won't be carrying any can in the future.

aloooof · 31-07-2023 4:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120918294#Comment_120918294

“Byrne dominance” is a, eh, interesting way of phrasing things for a guy who has all of 2 starts and 359 minutes over Farrell’s 3 and a half seasons…

aloooof · 31-07-2023 4:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120918646#Comment_120918646

This is just silly. Playing international rugby was a way bigger draw for Healy than anything to do with him being 1st choice for Edinburgh.

Evidenced by the fact he was immediately called into the Scotland 6 Nations squad after it was announced he was leaving, and made his debut while still at Munster (which, iirc at the time, I think you suggested you didn’t think this was likely?)

As for this:

Rowntree made his choice. If it turns out to be wrong, he'll have to carry the can for it. I think he got it right tbh.

You think Rowntree got it right but you’ll be happy to retrospectively, after-the-fact blame him for getting it wrong? Right…

Former Former Former · 31-07-2023 6:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120918810#Comment_120918810

It's not rubbish, it's objective fact. The start of the season was a mess with the Emerging tour and then both Crowley and Carbery being in the senior squad. Yeah Healy benched in the Aviva, but was that because he was second choice or because Crowley was starting that game at full back?

By the time Europe rolled around in December, the pecking order was very clear and Healy was very clearly third choice. Then he signed with Edinburgh. The behind the scenes discussions and motivations are all speculation.

Rowntree won't be carrying any can in the future.

That's exactly my point. He made the call that he thought was best for Munster, Healy had bigger ambitions and fair play to him, he took his chance. This is how professional sport works.

But by the same token, if Rowntree isn't carrying any can, why should Farrell?

aloooof · 31-07-2023 7:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120918978#Comment_120918978

To be fair, you’ve gone from this:

Rowntree made his choice. If it turns out to be wrong, he'll have to carry the can for it.

to quoting this

Rowntree won't be carrying any can in the future.

and then concluding;

That's exactly my point.

That seems like a complete about-face. How else were posters supposed to interpret the first quote?

Podge_irl · 31-07-2023 7:33am

While I think it's clearly true that Healy left to play international rugby I don't think there is much to suggest Munster coaches thought significantly more highly of Healy than Ireland ones.

mahoney_j · 31-07-2023 7:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120918646#Comment_120918646

Rubbish …..Ben was rated a lot higher within Munster …..he wanted a shot at international rugby ….powers that be higher up in Irfu didn’t give him any indication he was on the radar ultimately that and his ambition to test himself at top level influenced his decision to to to Edinburgh and Scotland

aloooof · 31-07-2023 7:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919016#Comment_120919016

He was 2nd choice for the run-in, and pivotal during it, even tho he was leaving, when other coaches may have picked the guy with more experience who was staying.

I think it’s entirely fair to say the Munster coaches thought highly of him.

To the point that they offered him a contract. Farrell didn’t offer him a sniff.

Former Former Former · 31-07-2023 8:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919033#Comment_120919033

Ben was rated a lot higher within Munster

He was rated third of three. Now, JVG seemed to have more time for him than Rowntree (but still a distant second to Carbery) so maybe it's just something about his style that Rowntree didn't fancy, I don't know. He got a nice run at the end of the season, but only after Carbery fell off a cliff.

I genuinely don't see why people think this guy was hard done by in not getting Ireland call-ups.

aloooof · 31-07-2023 8:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919058#Comment_120919058

The Munster coaches, more than any other, have shown they’ll pick on form. That’s exactly what happened on the run-in, when he was 2nd choice.

In any case, we know being 3rd choice for your province doesn’t preclude you from Ireland selection. Evidenced by Harry Byrne and even 4th choice Frawley.

Even Jake Flannery got a start at 10 during the EI tour.

I could understand if Healy felt hard done by.

molloyjh · 31-07-2023 8:47am

Can I ask what the relevance is in discussing the run-in when it happened after Healys decision to leave? It seemed to me, from the outside looking in, that Healy had been 2nd choice but the rise of Crowleys star very genuinely threatened that standing. He was looking down the barrel of being 3rd choice for Munster and not having any shot with Ireland (and his lack of selection for the EI tour and Nov games wasn’t really a discussion point at the time which absolutely suggests he wasn’t close to Test level). Once he made the call to leave his confidence/form took an upward swing. But everything from there on is irrelevant because the decision was made and contracts signed. There’s feck all point in saying “he was great in April and we should have kept him” when the decisions were all made back in December.

Oh and Munster tried to keep him on an extended deal. That makes it pretty clear that he moved for international honours and that Rowntree wanted him to stay, so I don’t see how Rowntree could be said to have made any other decision beyond wanting him to stay.

Podge_irl · 31-07-2023 9:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919034#Comment_120919034

I don't think them offering him a contract is all that relevant. Of course they'd like to keep a decent backup 10.

But he was variously behind Carbery and Crowley at Munster also. If he was really that much of a loss and should have been in Irish squads he should probably have been starting ahead of the third choice Irish 10? This isn't some unfairly overlooked player who one man has maligned. Munster clearly rate him about the same level.

Podge_irl · 31-07-2023 9:16am

Put it another way - Had HB not been getting into Ireland squads and decided to leave Leinster despite a contract offer I would think that's probably a fair enough call and just one of those things. Now, I get why him being rated behind HB is annoying (I think its fairly marginal myself, and HB is absolutely benefitting from a perceived higher ceiling). Clearly also, neither of them have much of an international future for Ireland. Even if Healy got in the squad, does anyone really think he would be there for long or ever seriously threaten to be a starter?

aloooof · 31-07-2023 9:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919183#Comment_120919183

People are focusing on the 3rd choice element, but if Healy had stayed, post-Sexton, Munster would have been the most well stocked Province at 10, imo. And Provincial pecking order hasn’t really mattered with regards Ireland selection.

And like I said, when Frawley and even Jake Flannery were getting more of a look in than you, I think he may have reason to feel hard done by. Especially when we know time in camp matters, often more than provincial performance.

(Admittedly, Flannery was very likely because they didn’t want to completely entirely hamstring the Provinces. But then we still had posters suggesting the EI tour made no difference to the provinces …)

Tbh, I think Healy has a higher ceiling than RB. He’s certainly got a better pass, imo.

Equally, I think it very unfair to suggest he wasn’t highly thought of at Munster. Would anyone suggest Harry Byrne isn’t highly thought of by the Leinster coaches despite being 3rd choice?

molloyjh · 31-07-2023 9:23am

I don’t believe there were any mistakes made by anyone here. Let’s look at the decisions (factoring in the relevant timeline). All in all it seems quite reasonable from all parties. It’s unfortunate for Munster, but that’s just how these things shake up sometimes.

Andy Farrell

In October Farrell named his squad for the November internationals. He named Carbery and Crowley but not Healy. There was very little objection to that at the time. Healy had been a decent 10 without being a particularly good one and didn’t show any signs of having a higher ceiling in the same way that Crowley looked to have. It’s hard to say that Farrell made any kind of an error of judgement here at all. And any decisions he made thereafter are irrelevant as Healy signed for Edinburgh before the 6Ns squad was announced.

Graham Rowntree

Rowntree looked to offer Healy an extended contract in an effort to retain the 10. He obviously saw enough in him to push for stronger contract terms rather than let him go. This means he must have seen something in him to warrant the stronger terms, and that bore out in the second half of the season. So it’s hard to say Rowntree made any errors in judgement there either. In the end his decision seemed to have no bearing on what happened at all (that said we don’t know what conversations were being had in the background re Healys position in the squad).

Ben Healy

Healy started the season as 2nd choice 10 behind Irelands number 2. By November he had seen Crowleys star rise quickly and significantly. He was arguably still 2nd choice at the time (Crowley was playing a lot of his rugby at 12 and 15, but whether that was because he was seen as 3rd choice 10 or because they were looking to develop him/get their best players on the pitch is something we simply don’t know) but, from his perspective, Healy was fighting what was likely a losing battle for that 2nd choice spot. He could either go to Scotland and be first choice for a club there while being in a strong position to feature in the RWC or stay in Ireland and fight a possible losing battle for 2nd choice at his province and not get a look in for the RWC. It seems a fairly obvious choice really. Nobody can blame him for making it and it looks to be working out for him, so fair play.

mahoney_j · 31-07-2023 9:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919058#Comment_120919058

Was third choice after he made decision to go …..his form dictated he moved up pecking order due to joeys form and was vying with Crowley for the 10 jersey but in fairness to Crowley he has made the jersey his own

he was hard done by when u see some of the other 10s that got a shot

Former Former Former · 31-07-2023 9:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919183#Comment_120919183

I don't think them offering him a contract is all that relevant. Of course they'd like to keep a decent backup 10.

Of course they would have wanted him to stay. Munster now have only two senior out halves, one of whom is in the Ireland squad and the other presumably still hopes to get back there too. Regardless of the pecking order, Healy's departure leaves them in a bind they would have liked to have avoided. He's a loss to Munster, for sure, but not to Ireland (based on what we've seen so far).

Ultimately, a guaranteed spot in the first team at Edinburgh and very few credible rivals for Scotland, that's something Munster could never match. It's just one of those things and trying to find ways to blame IRFU is a bit pointless really.

aloooof · 31-07-2023 9:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919244#Comment_120919244

But then we still had posters suggesting the EI tour made no difference to the provinces

Interestingly on this, of the 10 Munster players who went on the EI tour, 6 of them started the final and 3 were on the bench. Ahern, the other player, being a long-term casualty.

I didn’t at all agree with this line of argument at the time, but it seems genuinely silly in retrospect.

Podge_irl · 31-07-2023 10:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919244#Comment_120919244

I never said he wasn't highly thought of, but clearly several other players were more highly thought of at various points in time. Crowley got a look in ahead of Healy because a couple of coaches thought he was the better bet, and by all accounts they appear to have been correct. I would also be annoyed if HB was leaving Leinster as it would leave us light on options.

Yes, Healy was overlooked for Ireland, but he also clearly missed his chance to be a frontline player at Munster, and when the first choice player was struggling was leapfrogged by Crowley. There is no guarantee he would have been happy riding pine for Munster forever either.

Podge_irl · 31-07-2023 10:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919345#Comment_120919345

I still don't like the concept, at all, and was unhappy with the disrespect shown to the URC. But it certainly has been far more successful than I anticipated.

31-07-2023 10:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120914924#Comment_120914924

There was plenty of talk of it amongst munster supporters. Maby not from the media that obsessed over harty byrne and now sam prendergast but plenty of munster fans thought he should be our no.1 2 years ago

31-07-2023 10:42am

Like who's the last irish 10 with 40 caps including champions cup games as a 22 year old whos sunk kicks to win games from 20 that was not even within an arses roar of the irish squad.

31-07-2023 11:01am

The "he was 3rd choice" argument even if you believe it dosent make sense as its never been an issue at other provinces

snotboogie · 31-07-2023 12:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919252#Comment_120919252

Going into the season Healy was a more proven 10 than Crowley or Frawley, despite this both were selected ahead of him at the Emerging Ireland tour and November. its perfectly reasonable to question Farrell's logic on this. The reasoning that Crowley or Frawley provide more cover and hence would be far more likely to travel to the World Cup obviously makes sense but that should be communicated to Healy whereas it seems Farrell told Healy he was not in his plans at all.

I don't buy the argument that Healy has a low ceiling. He is a perfectly capable playmaker and if anything his passing is too flashy at times, he has a passable running game and is a reliable defender. I'm not sure where the big hole in his game is? it seems that because he has a big boot and played for Munster people are typecasting him as one dimensional.

aloooof · 31-07-2023 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919270#Comment_120919270

You keep mentioning guaranteed 1st choice for Edinburgh (vs down the Munster pecking order), but the draw of International rugby was clearly the bigger motivator for him. Like I said earlier:

Evidenced by the fact he was immediately called into the Scotland 6 Nations squad after it was announced he was leaving, and made his debut while still at Munster (which, iirc at the time, I think you suggested you didn’t think this was likely?)

Out of interest I went back to check, and you went even further than suggesting it was just unlikely:

I don't think it matters tbh. It would be astonishing management if Scotland called Healy up.

The fact he was called in immediately tells us exactly all we need to know about his motivations for the move.

easymoneysnipa · 31-07-2023 12:18pm

Ireland don’t just go around capping third choice outhalves, now Healy was 2nd choice in 2021 as an example pulled out of thin air, but he was third choice ten for a few months this year. But third choice ten might have been a good call up if he was third choice 15 and third choice 12 too, that’s good bottom of the depth chart versatility for a red head to have.

Former Former Former · 31-07-2023 12:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919705#Comment_120919705

Don't think anyone has suggested he wasn't being picked for Ireland because he was third choice at Munster. He was second choice for a couple of years, effectively first choice for a while during Carbery's injury and still didn't get a look in.

aloooof · 31-07-2023 12:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919411#Comment_120919411

That’s fine, but that can be true and it can still have impacted the provinces is my only point.

Cookiemunster · 31-07-2023 12:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920122#Comment_120920122

Which is the reason he left. It wasn't due to where he was or wasn't in the pecking order at Munster.

Former Former Former · 31-07-2023 12:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920130#Comment_120920130

Does anyone really know that?

On the other hand, if your version is correct, then he gave up on playing for Ireland at the age of 23, so maybe it wasn't that big a deal for him after all.

Podge_irl · 31-07-2023 12:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920130#Comment_120920130

The pecking order at Munster can hardly have helped though. Its a rather different scenario to think you can break into the Irish squad eventually when you are first choice for a side versus being completely leapfrogged by a relative newbie.

He's ultimately obviously correct that its easier to get international rugby with Scotland, cause Scotland are terrible. It doesn't, as of yet, mean anyone in the Irish coaching team made a mistake. There are only so many caps to give and the choice between Healy and HB seems much of a muchness to me (the Frawley thing I don't get, but I assume he's very much as a cover player to play midfield also).

Now, one intriguing counterfactual would be what would have happened had he been brought into training squads but never capped.

molloyjh · 31-07-2023 12:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920005#Comment_120920005

We have no clue what Farrell did or did not say to Healy and I don’t think anyone called Healy one dimensional. Healy being “more proven” was purely down to playing in the position more. That doesn’t make him better. Especially not when looking at Crowley, given that most of Healys experience was built up when Crowley wasn’t on the scene at all.

My opinion on Healy was that he was a decent 10. He wasn’t much more than that. He kicked on a bit after making the decision to leave, but I think his recent form seems to be clouding a lot of memories of the guy, who btw got a good bit of media attention too when he broke through. But he simply wasn’t at the level and had shown little to nothing to suggest he could get there up to October 2022. There was hardly an outcry of any note when he wasn’t in the AI squad for example.

Crowley on the other hand looked like he absolutely had the ability to make it at Test level. Frawley obviously did something right in NZ having been brought as a centre and forced to fill in at 10 after Harry Byrnes injury. I wouldn’t have him there myself, but I’m more than happy to back the coaches decisions given they’ve gotten more right than wrong the last few years.

aloooof · 31-07-2023 12:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920182#Comment_120920182

He’s played for Scotland before he’s ever played for Edinburgh.

It’s pretty clear International rugby was the draw, and a move to Edinburgh facilitated that, not the other way round.

molloyjh · 31-07-2023 12:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919705#Comment_120919705

Not at Munster where Crowley was clearly 3rd choice when Ireland started looking at him too. None of this is provincial so there’s no need to make it such.

Podge_irl · 31-07-2023 12:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920265#Comment_120920265

Bent played for Ireland before Leinster, doesn't mean international rugby was the draw...

Like, obviously, it was a large part of it. But I think its a bit silly to completely discard the notion that playing second fiddle to two separate players at Munster (one younger and less experienced) didn't have an impact. If for no other reason then his pretty clear placing at Munster would also indicate his international chances were limited.

aloooof · 31-07-2023 1:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920309#Comment_120920309

But how many caps has Bent? And how many is Healy now likely to get?

And I haven't "complete discarded" it. I've said "way bigger motivator / draw" a number of times on this thread. And I stand by that; the International element was, imo, clearly a far, far more significant element than anything to do with Edinburgh.

Podge_irl · 31-07-2023 1:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920427#Comment_120920427

I'm sure. No one moves to play for Edinburgh, let's be realistic.

But I think his position at Munster would have been a significant factor in determining his international career was not likely to take off in Ireland. It would be one thing, in a post-Sexton world, to be one of 4 first choice fly halves playing. Its a very different thing to be 2nd choice at your province, particularly to someone younger. Even with a different coach in Ireland it would make things less likely.

My original point, which I pretty much stand by, is that Munster clearly don't see Healy as a top level international player either, or he wouldn't have fallen so easily and quickly behind Crowley.

Cookiemunster · 31-07-2023 1:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920182#Comment_120920182

I really can't understand why some Leinster fans can't accept the possibility that Farrell didn't rate him and told him so. It's quite obvious that didn't rate him when there were 7 other players called up ahead of him, including a player who doesn't actually play 10.

Scotland chased him for two years before he decided to leave. He quite obviously waited those two years to see if an Ireland call up came and when it didn't he decided that his international rugby future was with Scotland.

aloooof · 31-07-2023 1:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920465#Comment_120920465

It's entirely possible they saw both as an international level prospect, but thought Crowley had an even higher celiing than Healy. They're not mutally exclusive. Like I said, if Healy had stayed, I think it's fair to say Munster would have been the most well-stocked province at 10.

But I think his position at Munster would have been a significant factor in determining his international career was not likely to take off in Ireland.

His lack of involvement in even a training camp, when he's seen other players in 3rd and 4th choice at Leinster (the latter who doesn't even really play 10 for Leinster) getting selected (and like I said, even Jake Flannery in the EI tour), is way more an indicator that his international career was not likely to take off, imo.

Cookiemunster · 31-07-2023 1:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920465#Comment_120920465

He didn't fall behind Crowley until he told Munster he was leaving.

Podge_irl · 31-07-2023 1:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920519#Comment_120920519

Yeah, that's fair. He announced it earlier than I realised.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920515#Comment_120920515

His lack of involvement in even a training camp, when he's seen other players in 3rd and 4th choice at Leinster

And Munster....3rd choice Munster players were involved, they just got picked ahead of him

So you could equally make the argument he left cause Farrell picked Crowley ahead of him? Does anyone think that was the wrong call?

aloooof · 31-07-2023 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920548#Comment_120920548

I've had this argument before too, but I don't think we can say in any definitive way that Crowley was de facto 3rd choice under the new coaching ticket, due to the timing the EI tour, and the subsequent injury issues Munster had.

But what we do know is that this Munster coaching ticket are happy to back form. He would have had the opportunity to change that pecking order possibly more than at any other province (and that's exactly how it played out).

And we also know that Farrell values what he sees in camp. He never got that oppotunity, even in an extended squad. That's a far, far bigger indicator of how his international career was going to go than anything at Munster.

Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

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