Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

Boscoirl

for anyone travelling today. There are train strikes in the uk 🙈

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978963#Comment_121978963

Apparently McSweeney wasn't named in the European squad which is bizarre since you can name something like 80 players and Munster had basically their entire sub academy named.

aloooof

For all the talk of Crowley's poor kicking stats in the 6 Nations…

https://twitter.com/AnalystGus/status/1776213897504010432

leakyboots

Matt Williams, parroted by some on here, say no more!

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979566#Comment_121979566

He has a lot to answer for, I genuinely don't know how he's getting airtime on Irish TV.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979524#Comment_121979524

to be fair, theres another side to this:

his champions cup stats aren't exactly shining, which adds to the perception.

his stats in the 6 nations was 74% which is very much acceptable, especially his performance in france.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979902#Comment_121979902

Which, if you weighted them all together, still suggests he's a better goalkicker than was being made out during the 6 Nations.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979484#Comment_121979484

Wouldn't read too much into that. Conor Philips is still listed in the Munster squad on the EPCR website. There is also an opportunity to register additional players in advance of the knock-outs.

I still think it might be Donnelly over McSweeney though

letowski

https://x.com/tonyleen/status/1776235189791830360?s=46

Tony Leen of the Irish Examier says there’s rumour Frisch could be going to Toulon. Pretty sure he is under contract for Munster next season though. Toulon have the Fiji 13 too I think.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980036#Comment_121980036

Yeah absolutely, im not at all defending mutt wullums at all, cant stand the guy tbh.

but crowleys stats do drop in more pressurised situations, which is absolutely to be expected for such a young guy. the great thing is he can set himself a very high bar to reach in those more pressurised situations.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980061#Comment_121980061

Leen would have heard that from ROG too I'd imagine. It was reported yesterday that La Rochelle were interested in him also

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980104#Comment_121980104

but crowleys stats do drop in more pressurised situations

I'm not sure that's completely accurate either tho. His worst place kicking performance was vs Italy, which was probably the least pressurised environment.

There's obviously no provision for difficulty of kick either, when comparing straight %'s.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980136#Comment_121980136

ah youre being a bit disingenuous there.

a game against italy in the 6N is obviously "more pressurised" than a URC game in Thomond against Dragons.

its a test game and a grand slam is on the line.

so working on the basis that a six nations is more pressurised than a European game, and a european game is more pressurised than a URC league game.

using the stats we have (converted versus attempted) its a fair conclusion to make that Crowleys kicking stats do drop in more pressurised games.

now you might use different language "more important" "higher profile" etc but it all amounts to the same thing.

and like i said originally, its completely expected that a young kicker will have discrepancies in his stats as he finds his feet. The only irish kicker that i can recall being extremely consistent from the tee is Ross Byrne. i cant imagine hes ever deviated from that 75-85% figure for all competitions. Sexton, afair, certainly had some dodgy days off the tee when he started. ROG the same. Keys would have been consistent as well, but hardly in the 80's over his career.

if Jack can replicate that high 80s consistently across all competitions he will become very valuable.

the only player that i think is comparable these days is noah lolesio. Apart from his first season at 20 yo, his 'off the tee' stats have consistently been in the 80's - low 90's for both brumbies and australia. He currently at 100% in SR this season for brumbies. He is probably not as good a rugby player as his direct competition, carter gordon, but those stats are what will have him ahead of carter when schmidt comes to selecting his sides.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980104#Comment_121980104

It is very similar to Sexton when he came into frame. He had plenty of questions raised about his kicking for Ireland, even though his numbers with Leinster were good.

Crowley should improve over time, whether it is from him dealing with the pressure better or the difficulty of the kicks balancing out over a bigger population.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980296#Comment_121980296

Can we not just disagree without calling people "disingenuous"??

Here's the point I was making. Yes, this is true:

a game against italy in the 6N is obviously "more pressurised" than a URC game in Thomond against Dragons.

But equally a game against Italy in the 6N is obviously "less pressurised" than a 6N game in Marseille against France.

Crowley had a much better kicking % than Ramos that day. So is it completely accurate to say Crowley's stats do drop in more pressurised situations?

I think there's more going on than just "more pressure, therefore his stats are going to drop". Like, for example, provisioning for the difficulty / position of the kick. That's not baked into the success percentages.

Quin_Dub

When are they expected to announce any outcome from the Ryan Appeal?

Hank the DJ

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980061#Comment_121980061

If he's declaring for France you can bet some French team have been talking to him, this would help him get out of the contract early without too much hassle.

I'd be disappointed as he was central to changing the way Munster play under Rowntree but would wish him well.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980352#Comment_121980352

The said the appeal was being heard this afternoon so I would imagine we would hear tonight.

Mark Donnelly has been involved with Cork Con for most of the season, he's not been named in their squad for their fixture vs. City of Armagh tomorrow

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980362#Comment_121980362

He would likely have been travelling anyway as a "24th" man - I assume they always bring along the necessary specialist subs in case of a late withdrawal - Hooker , Prop, S/H etc.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980328#Comment_121980328

i dont know how you can disagree with the statistics though?

ive really no idea why you are so militant with this. im simply stating facts, and you are trying really hard to argue against these numbers using not but imaginary "i think theres more going on".

what are these ethereal things you are referring to?

So is it completely accurate to say Crowley's stats do drop in more pressurised situations?

if you think playing in a test game with a grand slam on the line is LESS pressurised than wearing a red jersey for a routine league game in limerick then so be it, its a weird take but one your welcome to have it. The 6 nations is a 5 game competition with no play off buffer.

if you think playing in a test game with a grand slam on the line is MORE pressurised than wearing a red jersey for a routine league game in limerick then id suggest youre in the majority. The URC is an 18 round league with a very wide play off buffer.

We do not have stats on the difficulty of kicks to extrude any kind of argument that different competitions offer significantly more difficult place kick on average. If we did we'd see stats on all kickers drop the more higher profile the competition, and finn russell wouldnt have slotted a kick in this years 6N, but of course, he did and ended up at 96%.

I think a more realistic extrusion of stats is simply that some kickers some do feel pressure in the more high profile games and therefore an acknowledgement of Crowleys 67% in the Champion cup and 74% in the 6N does not in anyway detract from his 90% in the URC, but is something that is completely understandable.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980061#Comment_121980061

Nayacavelu is going to Sale next year.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980405#Comment_121980405

i dont know how you can disagree with the statistics though?

I'm not disagreeing with them, I'm merely pointing out it tells you nothing about the qualitative aspect. If you think that's "imaginary", then I don't know what to tell you…

what are these ethereal things you are referring to?

I've literally answered this in the post you're referring to. "provisioning for the difficulty / position of the kick".

Tbh, "disingenuous, militant" and the sarcasm above (to something I've already answered) I'm not sure why I'd bother engaging further… lets leave it at that.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980454#Comment_121980454

Doesn't your comment regarding the lack of qualitative aspect not also apply to the URC kicking stats, that many are using to brush off questions about Crowley's kicking numbers?

Where is the consistency?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980454#Comment_121980454

yeah fair enough, our posts are there to be taken for what they are.

Brief_Lives

John Ryan appeal has failed. Mark Donnelly on bench for Sunday

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980487#Comment_121980487

Yep, there's no qualitative aspect for anyone.

If there was, I'd still suspect Crowley would come out comparatively well; he doesn't strike me as a poor place-kicker by any means.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980487#Comment_121980487

Its obvious to most that the difficulty of place kicks does not deviate in any significant way from competition to competition. The pitch is only 70 meters wide no matter what competition you are playing in.

what leads to a better standard deviation is simply more inputs.

for example if Crowley is 19/21 in the URC, let see what his stat is when he reach 21 attempts in the CC.

if its lower, then there is some other factor at play i would think. Some might argue theoretically that the location of kicks are more difficult in the CC, but that doesn't seem to be able to be testable with currently available stats.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980567#Comment_121980567

Interesting. I didn't see you respond that there was no qualitative aspect to those posters earlier who were using the same % numbers from the URC to support Crowley not having any questions about his kicking.

Either the raw % numbers have value or we throw them all out.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980614#Comment_121980614

Did any sayone there's definitely no questions about Crowley's kicking?

People are saying his kicking stats are better than was made out during the 6 Nations. That seems entirely fair.

But look, if we're debating stats, I'm still interested how many you think constitutes the "so many" that "have been pointing out how old Ringrose and Henshaw are getting and how they'll be on the scrapheap soon enough.".

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980526#Comment_121980526

Not exactly unexpected - It was the longest of long shots to begin with.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980612#Comment_121980612

My thought would be that URC kicks are probably more likely to be easier.

This is based on playing poorer players and teams so getting under the posts is probably happens more frequently. With less risk attached to league matches, teams are probably more likely to kick for the corners than take a penalty with a lower likelihood of going over.

Obviously none of the above is in anyway scientific.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980672#Comment_121980672

Didn't realize it was you who originally posted his URC kicking stats to counter talk about Crowley's issues during the 6 nations.

For all the talk of Crowley's poor kicking stats in the 6 Nations…

https://twitter.com/AnalystGus/status/1776213897504010432

You went from being the one who brought the % stats into the thread to being the one arguing that they aren't useful when another poster uses them from other competitions 🤣

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980852#Comment_121980852

Yeah agreed, but the "kick to the corner" maul tries which are (probably) more prominent in URC generally lead to 'inside the 15' conversions. And I'd argue that, again probably, equalisies the 'run under the posts' tries.

In a vacuum of information all kinds of hypotheticals will sprout though

leakyboots

Ah lads, unless you can show a map of half a pitch and where each kick is taken from by Crowley you're kind of talking beans. Teams score nearer the posts in URC me arse. Crowley could slot 6/6 this weekend and the Heineken stats change again

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980919#Comment_121980919

Take it up with the poster(s) who want to use the % stats for one competition as evidence supporting Crowley and dismiss the same stats from the other two.

My original post on the topic accepted that it could just be a population issue with the in the different competitions (it also could be pressure etc) but given the lack of the heatmap you call for we either use the % stats across the competitions or ignore them - it is silly to try to have it both ways.

leakyboots

I think Crowley has shown himself well able to handle pressure in his fledgling career with last minute drop goals and touchline conversions. He certainly strikes me as a fella who moves on quickly from a mistake.

I don't recall a peep on his placekicking on here until Matt Williams came out with it.

Let's judge him over the whole course of the season would be my take on it

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980873#Comment_121980873

Again, that's not at all what I said. My point was, like all stats, they are useful.. to a point.

During the 6 Nations, the likes of Matt Williams were just looking at his 6 Nations kicking stats and concluding that he's not a good place-kicker.

When you look at this 6 Nations stats AND his URC stats, that picture changes.

Y'know, nuance.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980938#Comment_121980938

I'm not saying look at one and not the other (regardless of how often you want to keep misquoting me). I'm saying look at both.

While still acknowledging that, even still, it doesn't contain a qualitative element.

It's really not that difficult to understand.

(Still waiting on those "so many" who said Henshaw and Ringrose were on the scrapheap btw…)

clsmooth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980612#Comment_121980612

I think player fatigue is a big factor in kick accuracy. Both these are likely to be higher as you go up through the levels. Can’t be easy to get the heart rate down for those clutch kicks when your body stress is through the roof at a level you’re not fully accustomed to.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980958#Comment_121980958

That wasn't your point, your OP just dumped in URC stats that looked favourably for Crowley with the statement

'For all the talk of Crowley's poor kicking stats in the 6 Nations…'

You didn't step in with your 'nuance' when other posters used your stats to kick Williams, you only started with your 'stats are only useful to a point' when another poster showed that Crowley has quite poor kicking stats in both the higher quality and pressure competitions he has been involved in this season.

No point in going on further with this, the hypocrisy in the sudden pivot and action from you is clear.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980967#Comment_121980967

I've told you before that I will never play that find the post game with you again after the time you asked for evidence and I found several posts and you just moved the goalposts instantly. Fool me once…

If I am wrong and everyone believes the age of Henshaw and Ringrose into the medium term isn't a concern then the loss of Frisch to Irish rugby is limited significantly.

So crowleys a good kicker but pressure gets to him thats certainly an opinion

Jump_In_Jack

Could we ring-fence this thread to Munster fans for the next 48 hours please and thank you, if you’re from another province kindly refrain from posting here, you have other threads to drag into the gutter.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981114#Comment_121981114

Or just in general

Neil3030

If you're motivated enough you'll find a flaw in any player, in any context. BOD lacked height. Parisse went bald.

BUT, keep saying it, around fans of those players, and hopefully people argue back. BOOM. Now you can call them defensive.

Be honest, the back-and-forth is all you want. Is it the attention? Is that all that matters?

Just know that such life goals are in close alignment with both MAGA Republicans and the typical miscreant causing a nuisance at the back of a bus.

And showing people how much spare time you have really isn't the flex you think it is.

aloooof

I'd wager Crowley did better in the 6 Nations than some expected, so here we are.

In any case, Munster v Northamption, and nobody has mentioend 100,000 phases yet.

leakyboots

Standard of debate is through the floor, let's be honest, for whatever reason.

phog

These are Sexton's stats for Ireland (I didn't pick the years, they were thrown up by ESPN)

Way below note magic figure Matt Williams requires from his Outhalf/Kicker

The whole thing is a storm in a tea cup manufactured by Williams to sound knowledgeable

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981395#Comment_121981395

It’s because the modding is through the floor

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981438#Comment_121981438

You should try it sometime, salmo… it's not the cakewalk you seem to think it is.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981026#Comment_121981026

100% absolutely

You could even describe it as being under more pressure.