Munster Team Talk Thread - New season title pending....

E mac

David Wessels was originally Munsters first target to replace rassie wasn't he? He hasn't exactly done wonders at Melbourne Rebels like Munster they seem to be going sideways rather than pushing upwards.

Buer

aloooof wrote: »

For me, a huge area of improvement will have to be in the handling skills of the forwards. It's easy say we need to get the ball to Conway and Earls more, but we can only do that if we have more efficient and more fluid handling.

I can't agree enough. I don't know what it is. Some of these guys absolutely have the skills to play like that. POM actually has great hands but we never see them. He can take and give a pass very smoothly and quickly in the same way we've seen Fardy do multiple times over the past 18 months.

Beirne is very comfortable on the ball and is probably the most prominent in terms of moving the ball but certainly nothing stand out in relative terms.

Those aside, I'm not sure how many Munster forwards are genuinely comfortable doing anything beyond running at someone with the ball in hand and most of them aren't dynamic enough to actually win those collisions against better teams i.e. John Ryan, Billy Holland, Niall Scannell etc.

It's been made more stark in recent weeks by seeing all the other provinces mix things up with their forwards. Jack McGrath and Tom O'Toole were both at first receiver last weekend behind decoy runners before pulling passes back to Burns/Madigan in midfield. Treadwell launched an offload as he went to ground in the closing seconds too.

Denis Buckley does the same for Connacht and most of their forwards are able to link when they have the ball. When they were hammered by Munster, their starting pack passed the ball 23 times (despite 2 of them being gone for most of the game). At the weekend, Munster's entire forward unit (starters and their replacements) passed the ball 15 times.

I really don't think it's a refusal by the players to move the ball but a plan based on winning the collision, recycling cleanly and getting front foot over and over. But if those collisions are being lost, opportunities need to be created. It might just be tipping the ball on to another carrier and forcing the defence to adjust by a yard but it can commit another defender very quickly and force them into an incorrect decision.

sydthebeat

aloooof wrote: »

I think you're misinterpreting his stat. That's just player who made their debut. There were other guys in the academy that had already made their debut that have also been given game time. (Wycherly, Calvin Nash and Sean O'Connor for example come to mind).

Having a starting point of "players who made their debut under JvG" wasnt my selection... im averaging as much out of that so to see the trend... and it doesn't look good at all.

i said this a year ago

sydthebeat wrote: »

Hopefully, cos I can't see larkham staying subordinate to a SA video analysist for long..... He could be the making of munster.

and i still believe it today.

Quin_Dub

aloooof wrote: »

I think you're misinterpreting his stat. That's just player who made their debut. There were other guys in the academy that had already made their debut that have also been given game time. (Wycherly, Calvin Nash, Liam O'Connor and Sean O'Connor for example come to mind).

It's no way near as little gametime as you're making out.

How many graduates from the Academy in the last 5/6 years are consistently in Match day squads for big games outside of Injury?

The Munster Academy hasn't produced a front-line International since Murray & Kilcoyne (by front-line I mean a player who would have reasonable expectations of consistently making a matchday 23).

Yes - The player pool is smaller ; Yes , the schools aren't "mini-academies" like some of the Leinster schools , but even making allowances for those things , the Munster Academy has significantly under delivered for quite some time.

Not sure that the blame for that lies with JvG , it's the overall structure that is failing.

rayd3

E mac wrote: »

David Wessels was originally Munsters first target to replace rassie wasn't he? He hasn't exactly done wonders at Melbourne Rebels like Munster they seem to be going sideways rather than pushing upwards.

First choice was Nienaber. Think the second was having JVG and Wessels both work with Fla and Felix but Rebels came in with an offer when the Western Force were dropped. Defence has been very good apart from odd blip under Ferreira, unsure if he was also part of the first or second choice. Coaching ticket was where they wanted it before Axel’s passing, DOR, Head Coach, Defence, Forwards, Backs. Has been down at least one from that point, hence the chat until Covid budget contraints about another appointment.

aloooof

sydthebeat wrote: »

Having a starting point of "players who made their debut under JvG" wasnt my selection... im averaging as much out of that so to see the trend... and it doesn't look good at all.

That's fine, but the stats you've extrapolated from that are incorrect. For example:

sydthebeat wrote: »

so on average hes giving game time to 3 academy players per season.

That's not accurate as you've omitted any minutes given to guys in the academy who didn't make their debut under JvG.

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

dont cut their losses and do what??

youve said it yourself its his final year so its not going to be a rebuilding year.
how much effort is he going to put in to blooding youth for future seasons if this is his final year? what risks will he take altering his philosophy if this is his final year?

are munster just going to find themselves at the end of the 20/21 season in the very same position, or worse?

where is the evidence that it will be better? VanGraans trajectory has been sideways if not downwards in my opinion.

Tier 2 in the forthcoming champions cup means mostly likely facing the top english, french or Pro14 team in the QFs... and i dont think a 2 legged QF suits munster.

Is it a rebuilding year? Yes and no.

Yes in the sense that the current lineup has hit its ceiling and we need to give opportunities for players to push into the 23.

No in the sense that the first two seasons have not been great results wise and I don't think JvG gets an extension with a similar outcome in this third season.

rayd3

He really just cited his own comment from a year ago.

Yeah_Right

When you are all talking about game time for academy players, are meaning game time for players still in the academy or for players who came through the academy and are now in the senior squad?

Cookiemunster

sydthebeat wrote: »

If this is aimed at me i certainly didnt say he doesnt promote, i asked how much of an effort will he put in to blodding teh younger lads....

so lets take your guys for example.



9 players over 3 season... so on average hes giving game time to 3 academy players per season.... do you think thats a sustainable policy?

how many players in your academy? 15? ... is 3 players per years promoted to senior contracts acceptable for munster fans?? acceptable for those academy players? im just asking the questions.


casey: 10 apps
daly: 20 apps
G coombes: 15 apps
knox: 8 apps
barron: 7 apps
L Coombes: 4 apps
Healey: 3 apps
JOS: 8 apps
Hodnett: 2 apps

total 77 apps

so over 3 years ... on average what, about 30 games per season... so over 90 games JvG has given less than 1 appearance for a young / academy player per game... and thats not to mention actual game time.

is that acceptable to munster fans? less than 1 appearance per game... really??

is that a sustainable way to run an academy or have a progression route for provincial players?

id argue its patently not, and id argue that JvG can not be praised for being a coach that selects youth where possible. and id argue that this will not change in 20/21 and that will only be to the detriment of the longer term for munster rugby

Fair play for totally ignoring the two thirds of my post talking about the inadequacies of the Munster academy, which is a much bigger reason for the lack of players progressing into the senior team.


And as Aloooof correctly pointed out, the players I named are just the ones he gave debuts to (most of them only last season). The likes of Goggin (43), Wycherly (35) who had made their debuts, but hadn't broken into the team until JVG arrives. Then you have non academy players like Loughman (41) and Neil Cronin (23) who've had plenty of games too.


To say that he doesn't use or trust young players is just rubbish. And yes, I do think that with the history of the Munster academy that 3 debuts a season has been a decent return from a pretty poor program. A program that thankfully have been turned around and finally looks to be producing talent.

sydthebeat

aloooof wrote: »

That's fine, but the stats you've extrapolated from that are incorrect. For example:



That's not accurate as you've omitted any minutes given to guys in the academy who didn't make their debut under JvG.

fine, just substitute the word 'academy' for 'debutantes under jvG'

the core point remains the same. The progression is not at all good enough and certainly not sustainable long term.

players bought by Van Graan since he took over.:

Tadhg Beirne
Mike Haley
Arno Botha
Joey Carbery
Alby Mathewson
Nick McCarthy
Jed Holloway
Damian de Allende
Matt Gallagher
RG Snyman
Roman Salanoa

mirror that against the players who JvG gave debuts to in his 3 years and ask yourself what a sustainable policy is.....

Cookiemunster

Yeah_Right wrote: »

When you are all talking about game time for academy players, are meaning game time for players still in the academy or for players who came through the academy and are now in the senior squad?

If he were to use that metric he'd talking well over half the players in the squad (27/42) upto and including the veterans like Holland, Earls, POM and Murray. So I doubt it's that one.

theboss80

It's 73 games league/cup games JvG has been in the boss' seat for so as Cookie points out the likes of Goggin and Wycherley have as many caps as half those games.

It's nonsense to use guys who were in Yr 1 or 2 of the academy 3 years ago and ask why haven't they a load of caps by now. The academy wasn't even a priority up until Rassie took over in my mind and we are starting to see that coming through now. To be trying to compare Munster's academy to Leinster is just ridiculous anyway considering it's the "best in the world".

Fierce amount of guys over concerned with Munster these days lads.

thomond2006

Diarmuid Barron 2021
Kevin O'Byrne 2022
Rhys Marshall 2021
Niall Scannell 2021

Scott Buckley Year 1
Eoghan Clarke Year 3

James Cronin 2021
Dave Kilcoyne 2023
Liam O'Connor 2022
Jeremy Loughman 2022

James French Year 3
Josh Wycherley Year 3

Stephen Archer 2022
Keynan Knox 2022
John Ryan 2022
Roman Salanoa 2022

Tadhg Beirne 2022
Billy Holland 2021
Jean Kleyn 2022
RG Snyman 2022
Fineen Wycherley 2021

Thomas Ahern Year 3
Paddy Kelly Year 2
Eoin O'Connor Year 2

Gavin Coombes 2021
Chris Cloete 2022
Tommy O'Donnell 2021
Jack O'Donoghue 2021
Peter O'Mahony 2021
Jack O'Sullivan 2023
CJ Stander 2021

Jack Daly Year 3
John Hodnett Year 2
Alex Kendellen Year 1

Craig Casey 2021
Neil Cronin 2021
Nick McCarthy 2021
Conor Murray 2022

Joey Carbery 2022
JJ Hanrahan 2021

Jack Crowley Year 1
Jake Flannery Year 2
Ben Healy Year 3

Damian de Allende 2022
Chris Farrell 2022
Dan Goggin 2022
Alex McHenry 2021
Rory Scannell 2021

Sean French Year 3

Andrew Conway 2023
Liam Coombes 2021
Shane Daly 2021
Keith Earls 2021
Matt Gallagher 2022
Mike Haley 2021
Calvin Nash 2021
Darren Sweetnam 2021

Jonathan Wren Year 3

2020/21 NIEs:
RG Snyman (capped), Damian de Allende (capped)

thomond2006

A lot of scope to reshape the squad in 2021/22 in the back five, scrum-half, centre and back three. There may be a few players let go next summer where their departure would have been unthinkable a year or so ago, particularly with quite a number of final year academy players who will either be promoted or released.

Yeah_Right

Would many players make their debut in the senior team while still in the academy? In any of the provinces? I would have thought that would only happen if their was a bad run of injuries in a particular position. Or if the individual was a freak. I thought that the point of the academies was to get players ready for pro-rugby when they graduated. Maybe my understanding of how the academies work is completely off.

Cookiemunster

sydthebeat wrote: »

fine, just substitute the word 'academy' for 'debutantes under jvG'

the core point remains the same. The progression is not at all good enough and certainly not sustainable long term.

players bought by Van Graan since he took over.:

Tadhg Beirne
Mike Haley
Arno Botha
Joey Carbery
Alby Mathewson
Nick McCarthy
Jed Holloway
Damian de Allende
Matt Gallagher
RG Snyman
Roman Salanoa

mirror that against the players who JvG gave debuts to in his 3 years and ask yourself what a sustainable policy is.....

Again. JVG is not responsible for the setup of the academy or the selection of talent that enters it. If they players coming out of the academy aren't of a high enough level (and most of the graduates in the last 10 years are now plying their trade in ProD2 or the Championship), that's not his fault.

In the last 2 season things looked to have been turned around behind the scenes and the players I listed earlier are starting to appear. Ask yourself this. Up to the season before last how many Munster players were getting into the Irish U20s squad?

Quin_Dub

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Fair play for totally ignoring the two thirds of my post talking about the inadequacies of the Munster academy, which is a much bigger reason for the lack of players progressing into the senior team.


And as Aloooof correctly pointed out, the players I named are just the ones he gave debuts to (most of them only last season). The likes of Goggin (43), Wycherly (35) who had made their debuts, but hadn't broken into the team until JVG arrives. Then you have non academy players like Loughman (41) and Neil Cronin (23) who've had plenty of games too.


To say that he doesn't use or trust young players is just rubbish. And yes, I do think that with the history of the Munster academy that 3 debuts a season has been a decent return from a pretty poor program. A program that thankfully have been turned around and finally looks to be producing talent.

Has it though or is it just something of a coincidence that there is a bit of a bubble of quality players coming through at present?

I haven't seen a whole lot of change in how they do things day to day TBH.

sydthebeat

theboss80 wrote: »

It's 73 games league/cup games JvG has been in the boss' seat for so as Cookie points out the likes of Goggin and Wycherley have as many caps as half those games.

It's nonsense to use guys who were in Yr 1 or 2 of the academy 3 years ago and ask why haven't they a load of caps by now. The academy wasn't even a priority up until Rassie took over in my mind and we are starting to see that coming through now. To be trying to compare Munster's academy to Leinster is just ridiculous anyway considering it's the "best in the world".

Fierce amount of guys over concerned with Munster these days lads.

who compared them to leinster?

and are munster fans not actually concerned with munster these days?

im not here to munster bash, i was defended them after that pro14 semi by saying that there are very few teams in europe that can restrict leinster to one try in a game, that being a maul over.

but im genuinely interested if in general munster fans are happy with where they are at the moment. do they actually think the promotion from their academy route is good enough, and fair dues to cookiemonster for pinning his colours to the mast and saying that he is actually happy with the progression.

Cookiemunster

theboss80 wrote: »

It's 73 games league/cup games JvG has been in the boss' seat for so as Cookie points out the likes of Goggin and Wycherley have as many caps as half those games.

It's nonsense to use guys who were in Yr 1 or 2 of the academy 3 years ago and ask why haven't they a load of caps by now. The academy wasn't even a priority up until Rassie took over in my mind and we are starting to see that coming through now. To be trying to compare Munster's academy to Leinster is just ridiculous anyway considering it's the "best in the world".

Fierce amount of guys over concerned with Munster these days lads.

I find it amazing that some posters (and the media to be fair) have so much concern about Munster, but don't have the same questions about Ulster and the amount of ex Leinster/project players/NIQs they have in their squad (25 out of 43 by my reckoning).

Cookiemunster

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Has it though or is it just something of a coincidence that there is a bit of a bubble of quality players coming through at present?

I haven't seen a whole lot of change in how they do things day to day TBH.

That's a fair point, but things were supposed to have been changed up 3 or 4 years back, which would coincide with the current crop coming through. I'll admit though that I don't have proof of any changes, it's just what I heard.

Kirk Van Houten

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Has it though or is it just something of a coincidence that there is a bit of a bubble of quality players coming through at present?

I haven't seen a whole lot of change in how they do things day to day TBH.

How much interaction do you have with the academy to monitor this on a day to day basis? Just so we are all clear on the authority on which you are basing your posts.

rayd3

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Would many players make their debut in the senior team while still in the academy?

Most make their debut but this notion that they should be playing 10+ games a year that some seem to have is a bit of a nonsense in most cases.



Craig Casey has 10 appearances and is moving onto his first season on a full senior deal after a year on a development contract. He did two years in the academy in those two he was out for 14 months of that with a knee injury. Made a brief end of season debut the second year.

Jack O’Sullivan did three years in the academy, missed a year with an ACL injury. 8 appearances in his third year just gone and moves onto a three year senior deal this season.

Fineen is like an example of the exception, debut for Munster during his U20 six nations campaign as a teenager. Jerry Flannery said they could see how he was able to man-handle senior players in training.

Alongside all this they’re college students.

My point is just that it’s reductive in the extreme to ask a load of loaded rhetorical questions, post some names and numbers of appearances and start bleating out, there’s far more to it and just because someone supports a successful team doesn’t mean they’ve a clue what is going on.

sydthebeat

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Would many players make their debut in the senior team while still in the academy? In any of the provinces? I would have thought that would only happen if their was a bad run of injuries in a particular position. Or if the individual was a freak. I thought that the point of the academies was to get players ready for pro-rugby when they graduated. Maybe my understanding of how the academies work is completely off.

i would think that a lot of final year academy players make their debut while still in the academy.

for example look at leinster (and let me be clear this is not a comparison with munster before someone gets the hump).

all four of year 3 from 19/20 made made their debuts before the end of this season. 2 of that 4 had made their debuts in year 2

of the five players going into year 3 this season, 2 have already made their debuts, again meaning they made their debuts in year 2

of the seven players given senior contracts in 19/20, they now, in their first professional season, have a total of 130 appearances between them

Cookiemunster

sydthebeat wrote: »

who compared them to leinster?

and are munster fans not actually concerned with munster these days?

im not here to munster bash, i was defended them after that pro14 semi by saying that there are very few teams in europe that can restrict leinster to one try in a game, that being a maul over.

but im genuinely interested if in general munster fans are happy with where they are at the moment. do they actually think the promotion from their academy route is good enough, and fair dues to cookiemonster for pinning his colours to the mast and saying that he is actually happy with the progression.

No I said that you were talking through your rear end when it comes to JVG not giving academy players a go and quite obviously failed to get it through to you that he can't be blamed for the inadequacies in the academy. That does equate to I'm 'happy with the progression'. I'm not happy, however I blame the player identification systems not JVG for the lack of players coming through.

kuang1

sydthebeat wrote: »

but im genuinely interested if in general munster fans are happy with where they are at the moment.

Not happy at all really.
I've accepted our bad luck with injuries. Carbery's possibly being our most costly (although I was never convinced that he was going to turn into the 10 we were hoping for... We might never know now the way his ankle seems to be not recovering.)

The aspect of our play that 100% infuriates me more than anything else is how our 1st receiver invariably is static when the ball gets to him.
And even worse than trying get over the gain line from a standing start, you'll even see the receiver taking a small jump to receive it (not sure if the blame lies with Murray or not for this) which means there's an extra fraction of a second lost as the player lands back down.

Defences eat this sort of sh1te for breakfast. Explains why our metres gained are so miniscule.

And this isn't a new thing. I'm moaning about this since Foley's time in charge.

It makes for horrendous viewing.

aloooof

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Again. JVG is not responsible for the setup of the academy or the selection of talent that enters it. If they players coming out of the academy aren't of a high enough level (and most of the graduates in the last 10 years are now plying their trade in ProD2 or the Championship), that's not his fault.

In the last 2 season things looked to have been turned around behind the scenes and the players I listed earlier are starting to appear. Ask yourself this. Up to the season before last how many Munster players were getting into the Irish U20s squad?

Agreed, and if we're looking for signs of encouragement, I'd wager we've played more younger players this season than in any of JvG's previous. Take, for example, the Connacht game where Daly, Nash, Goggin, Liam Coombes, Casey and Gavin Coombes all started.

Quin_Dub

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

How much interaction do you have with the academy to monitor this on a day to day basis? Just so we are all clear on the authority on which you are basing your posts.

I been coaching under-age rugby for the last 10+ years and have had multiple players involved in the system in that period.

It doesn't look very much different now then it did when I first had interactions with them.

When I talk about "The Academy" I'm talking about the entire process ,from the RDO/YDO's that are responsible for player/coach development in the Clubs and Schools all the way through the various pathways to the actual Academy itself.

The quality of the output from the Official Academy is entirely predicated on its inputs. If they aren't getting out and identifying players , working with Club/School coaches etc. then they are on a hiding to noting.

That is the main point I'm making.

And just to add - None of this is meant as anything personal against the individuals involved , the overwhelming majority are very nice people working hard to do the best they can.. but the Structures aren't helping them.

rayd3

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I find it amazing that some posters (and the media to be fair) have so much concern about Munster, but don't have the same questions about Ulster and the amount of ex Leinster/project players/NIQs they have in their squad (25 out of 43 by my reckoning).

It’s curious, was thinking about it recently. A special place in the hearts and minds for sticking the boot into Munster. Seeing the signing of Mathewson being applauded as shrewd business by McFarland when this years U20 scrum half is at Ulster was a particularly good one.

I think McFarland has done well but he seems to get a bit of the Frank Lampard treatment in the press. Compare the reaction from Ulster’s biggest ever loss to Munster versus Ulster giving Munster a solid shoeing the following year, both big wins for the home team.

sydthebeat

rayd3 wrote: »

It’s curious, was thinking about it recently. A special place in the hearts and minds for sticking the boot into Munster. Seeing the signing of Mathewson being applauded as shrewd business by McFarland when this years U20 scrum half is at Ulster was a particularly good one.

I think McFarland has done well but he seems to get a bit of the Frank Lampard treatment in the press. Compare the reaction from Ulster’s biggest ever loss to Munster versus Ulster giving Munster a solid shoeing the following year, both big wins for the home team.

would you like some vinegar with that??

mathewson was a great piece of business when the main 9 at the club is a projected ireland test squad member.