Munster Team Talk Thread - New season title pending....

Cookiemunster

sydthebeat wrote: »

i would think that a lot of final year academy players make their debut while still in the academy.

for example look at leinster (and let me be clear this is not a comparison with munster before someone gets the hump).

all four of year 3 from 19/20 made made their debuts before the end of this season. 2 of that 4 had made their debuts in year 2

of the five players going into year 3 this season, 2 have already made their debuts, again meaning they made their debuts in year 2

of the seven players given senior contracts in 19/20, they now, in their first professional season, have a total of 130 appearances between them

So you say that you're not going to compare the Leinster academy to the Munster academy and then go off and do exactly that. Yet you still can't get it into your head that the Leinster academy has a much wider player pool to pick from who generally arrive more physically developed that they do in Munster.
This means that fewer will make the grade in Munster and that those that do will take longer to be physically ready for pro rugby.

JVG cannot be blamed for not picking young players who don't exist. Those who are good enough get picked.

rayd3

sydthebeat wrote: »

for example look at leinster (and let me be clear this is not a comparison with munster before someone gets the hump)

Of course it’s not a comparison. You’re just here having a moan about Munster in the Munster thread saying have a look at Leinster.

rayd3

sydthebeat wrote: »

would you like some vinegar with that??

mathewson was a great piece of business when the main 9 at the club is a projected ireland test squad member.

As mature a response as expected. Never said I disagree with the signing, did I. Merely think the blubbering conniption it pulls out of the likes of you is a laugh to observe.

aloooof

sydthebeat wrote: »

i would think that a lot of final year academy players make their debut while still in the academy.

for example look at leinster (and let me be clear this is not a comparison with munster before someone gets the hump).

all four of year 3 from 19/20 made made their debuts before the end of this season. 2 of that 4 had made their debuts in year 2

of the five players going into year 3 this season, 2 have already made their debuts, again meaning they made their debuts in year 2

of the seven players given senior contracts in 19/20, they now, in their first professional season, have a total of 130 appearances between them

I think, generally speaking, there are pretty clear reasons why a Leinster year 3 academy player may be further along in his progression than a Munster year 3 academy player.

Look, the balance has to be struck to give young players game time, but I genuinely think if an analysis was done, I'd be very surprised if we haven't given more game time to younger players this season than in any of the previous 5, say. Things seems to be progressing in the right direction.

sydthebeat

Cookiemunster wrote: »

So you say that you're not going to compare the Leinster academy to the Munster academy and then go off and do exactly that.

FFS I didn't compare to munster, where did I quote munsters yearly debut figures??

Geez you lot take every little comment to be a slight. No sign of any ability to self reflect at all.

Cookiemunster

sydthebeat wrote: »

FFS I didn't compare to munster, where did I quote munsters yearly debut figures??

Geez you lot take every little comment to be a slight. No sign of any ability to self reflect at all.

Self reflect? You've ignored every explanation of why Munster academy players aren't making the senior team quicker or in greater numbers, because it doesn't suit your narrative that it's all JVGs fault.

As I said earlier, there's a lot of sticks to beat him with, but playing young players and giving them a chance isn't one of them.

sydthebeat

rayd3 wrote: »

Of course it’s not a comparison. You’re just here having a moan about Munster in the Munster thread saying have a look at Leinster.

the questions was asked:

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Would many players make their debut in the senior team while still in the academy? In any of the provinces?

but perhaps you missed that, so i will highlight it above for you.

you also missed that i did not compare leinster with munster in regard to what percentage of their academy players make their debuts whilst in the academy.... so ill clear that up for you as well.

aloooof

Buer wrote: »

I can't agree enough. I don't know what it is. Some of these guys absolutely have the skills to play like that. POM actually has great hands but we never see them. He can take and give a pass very smoothly and quickly in the same way we've seen Fardy do multiple times over the past 18 months.

Beirne is very comfortable on the ball and is probably the most prominent in terms of moving the ball but certainly nothing stand out in relative terms.

Those aside, I'm not sure how many Munster forwards are genuinely comfortable doing anything beyond running at someone with the ball in hand and most of them aren't dynamic enough to actually win those collisions against better teams i.e. John Ryan, Billy Holland, Niall Scannell etc.

It's been made more stark in recent weeks by seeing all the other provinces mix things up with their forwards. Jack McGrath and Tom O'Toole were both at first receiver last weekend behind decoy runners before pulling passes back to Burns/Madigan in midfield. Treadwell launched an offload as he went to ground in the closing seconds too.

Denis Buckley does the same for Connacht and most of their forwards are able to link when they have the ball. When they were hammered by Munster, their starting pack passed the ball 23 times (despite 2 of them being gone for most of the game). At the weekend, Munster's entire forward unit (starters and their replacements) passed the ball 15 times.

I really don't think it's a refusal by the players to move the ball but a plan based on winning the collision, recycling cleanly and getting front foot over and over. But if those collisions are being lost, opportunities need to be created. It might just be tipping the ball on to another carrier and forcing the defence to adjust by a yard but it can commit another defender very quickly and force them into an incorrect decision.

I think this post got a bit lost over the last number of pages but is spot on. It has a cumulative affect as well, if done well with the defence adjusting, you're also more likely to win the next collision too.

molloyjh

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I find it amazing that some posters (and the media to be fair) have so much concern about Munster, but don't have the same questions about Ulster and the amount of ex Leinster/project players/NIQs they have in their squad (25 out of 43 by my reckoning).

The media are naturally going to be focused on the 3 "southern" provinces by their nature so that explains the lack of focus on Ulster. That applies to both sides of the coin. They havent always gotten the praise or acknowledgement that they should either.

Munster suffer in the opposite way. When Munster do well there is a lot of fawning in the press. The marketing machine from the noughties plays its part. The number of times we still hear about the miracle match or the magic of Thomond Park or the passion (sorry pashun) is very noticeable. Even amongst the supporters of other provinces. So when you get that much focus in the good times, you get that much in the bad times too. I had a very knowledgeable uncle of mine talk about how you can never write Munster off in the lead up to the SF. But the only way Munster were ever going to win that game was if Leinster massively underperformed. Yet the old Munster of over a decade ago still rang in his ears because we've consistently heard about battling Munster winning against all odds for years.

I do hope the changes in the development pathways lead to a sustainable change for Munster. Without that, as you said, the coach can only do so much. And JVG is in a tough spot now. Munster were essentially 1 win away from avoiding Leinster in the SFs. If the season had not been interrupted who knows what would have happened. Munster could have taken top spot and made the final. That alone would have painted a different picture.

Now Munster need to improve on last season while also looking to bring the squad on. That's a bloody tough balancing act. JVG has to have 1 eye on what's best for Munster but also 1 eye on what's best for his job prospects. He could bring the squad on with young lads and go no further than this season. That could stand to Munster in the long run but cost JVG his job. Or he could keep faith with what they have been doing and hope they can top their conference, giving them a shot at making the final. Unless they actually go on to win that though this would be bad for Munster in the long run while also potentially saving his job...

Either way its desperately disappointing to see guys like Stander, POM and Murray go through the best years of their careers without getting silverware at provincial level. They deserve better than that.

aloooof

molloyjh wrote: »

Munster were essentially 1 win away from avoiding Leinster in the SFs. If the season had not been interrupted who knows what would have happened.

Great post Molloy. Think the above is spot on. The game that comes to my mind is the Edinburgh game in IIP where Munster fielded a young second-string side but lost by 2 points to a pretty full strength Edinburgh, who finished top of the conference.

They showed great resolve to come back from an early 10 point deficit. But even the vagaries of the fixture list meant it was sandwiched in the middle of 4 Champions Cup games. It goes to suggest what I always suspect; the margins at elite level sport are often very small.

Yeah_Right

sydthebeat wrote: »

but im genuinely interested if in general munster fans are happy with where they are at the moment. do they actually think the promotion from their academy route is good enough, and fair dues to cookiemonster for pinning his colours to the mast and saying that he is actually happy with the progression.

No. I'm not happy. I want to be winning trophies. And I don't think JVG is the coach to get them to that level.

As for promoting young players... the jury is still out on that one. I do think Munster have an issue with playing guys who are passed their best because they have been great servants to the club (POM and Murray). They should be relegated to experienced squad players or told to get a pay day in France/Japan. Let the next generation get more game time in big matches.

As for recruitment to the academy, people say that Leinster have a bigger pool to choose from but am I right in thinking that only half a dozen or so players are added to the academies each year? If so, why doesn't Munster recruit their academy players from Leinster?

molloyjh

Yeah_Right wrote: »

No. I'm not happy. I want to be winning trophies. And I don't think JVG is the coach to get them to that level.

As for promoting young players... the jury is still out on that one. I do think Munster have an issue with playing guys who are passed their best because they have been great servants to the club (POM and Murray). They should be relegated to experienced squad players or told to get a pay day in France/Japan. Let the next generation get more game time in big matches.

As for recruitment to the academy, people say that Leinster have a bigger pool to choose from but am I right in thinking that only half a dozen or so players are added to the academies each year? If so, why doesn't Munster recruit their academy players from Leinster?

Because Ulster do.

Seriously though, I think Munster have been open to it. Oliver is an example of where they've done that. He didn't get offered an Academy place in Leinster so the Munster Academy picked him up.

theVersatile

molloyjh wrote: »

Because Ulster do.

Seriously though, I think Munster have been open to it. Oliver is an example of where they've done that. He didn't get offered an Academy place in Leinster so the Munster Academy picked him up.

Wasn't there a winger Kelly who we also took from Leinster who ended up not making the cut?

molloyjh

theVersatile wrote: »

Wasn't there a winger Kelly who we also took from Leinster who ended up not making the cut?

Quite possibly. I'm not hugely familiar with schools or sub-Academy though I'm afraid.

theVersatile

Actually could be Jack Power I'm thinking of

molloyjh

theVersatile wrote: »

Actually could be Jack Power I'm thinking of

Ah yes, had forgotten about him. Good shout.

ronanc1000

I don't really post but a longtime thread follower.

I wouldn't know where to start as to where Munster go from here and even I would always be optimistic ahead of a new season. The gap is as wide as ever.

BOD said on off the ball tonight: "I don't think you're going to be winning titles with Billy Holland in the second row and Archer (Stephen) in the front row and John Ryan in tight head."

I tend to agree with BOD although I'd cut Ryan some slack upon return from injury. We've too many 'clubmen'. Our tight five isn't good enough. Nice backline, our 1-5 isn't good enough quality to be winning any kind of a trophy. It's depressing really. Larkham and Rowntree must be tearing hairs out, Murray is a one trick pony and Casey came on and did the same box kicking, he's clearly being instructed. There's no evidence Casey enjoys playing like Murray. Tired of it. Time to get Ben Healy onto the bench and competing with JJ. Unless I'm completely missing something.

The Lost Sheep

ronanc1000 wrote: »

I don't really post but a longtime thread follower.

I wouldn't know where to start as to where Munster go from here and even I would always be optimistic ahead of a new season. The gap is as wide as ever.

BOD said on off the ball tonight: "I don't think you're going to be winning titles with Billy Holland in the second row and Archer (Stephen) in the front row and John Ryan in tight head."

I tend to agree with BOD although I'd cut Ryan some slack upon return from injury. We've too many 'clubmen'. Our tight five isn't good enough. Nice backline, our 1-5 isn't good enough quality to be winning any kind of a trophy. It's depressing really. Larkham and Rowntree must be tearing hairs out, Murray is a one trick pony and Casey came on and did the same box kicking, he's clearly being instructed. There's no evidence Casey enjoys playing like Murray. Tired of it. Time to get Ben Healy onto the bench and competing with JJ. Unless I'm completely missing something.

Munster to be fair signed Snyman for the front five but he's got injured. Ideally in the new season starting in a few weeks we see plenty of Ahern, Kelly, O Connor especially Ahern in the second row and then Barron, Wycherly etc in the front row.
Murray has been poor and needs to step up but i wouldnt call him a one trick pony. If he was he wouldnt have as many caps or 5 Lions test appearances including 3 starts.
Ben Healy still needs to work a lot on his tackling, defence to really step up to pro level. Saw him in Garryowen AIL a few times and it wasnt good enough.

theboss80

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I find it amazing that some posters (and the media to be fair) have so much concern about Munster, but don't have the same questions about Ulster and the amount of ex Leinster/project players/NIQs they have in their squad (25 out of 43 by my reckoning).

Simple, Munster = clicks.

Look at the Munster thread here, majority are not even Munster fans but just fans with an opinion on Munster good, bad or indifferent.

For all the crying about Munster squad if you have a look around all three other provinces you will see players who were in that Munster squad at some point on the last 2 years.

The Lost Sheep

A games confirmed
https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2020/09/10/munster-a-to-face-connacht-a-in-double-header/

thomond2006

The selections for those games could inform a lot regarding the depth chart for 20/21.

Clegg

Ye should give the Rugby Weekly podcast a listen. Murray Kinsella and Bernard Jackman seem far more critical of the players than the coaches for the SF defeat.

BloodyBill

Im reluctant to criticise van Graan until the next season is over and then he can put forward his case. He's done OK so far. Im delighted we got De Allende and Snyman but its the bok we lost out on that was the big one, Pollard. Handre Pollard would have been a perfect fit for Munster...big guy,takes on the ball..great kicker.
Imagine Pollard and one heavy hitting tight head like Vincent Koch heading out to give Cian Healy a good contest. At this stage a Vincent Koch type destroyer is what Munster need to move on

BloodyBill

Im reluctant to criticise van Graan until the next season is over and then he can put forward his case. He's done OK so far. Im delighted we got De Allende and Snyman but its the bok we lost out on that was the big one, Pollard. Handre Pollard would have been a perfect fit for Munster...big guy,takes on the ball..great kicker.
Imagine Pollard and one heavy hitting tight head like Vincent Koch heading out to give Cian Healy a good contest. At this stage a Vincent Koch type destroyer is what Munster need to move on

Eod100

thomond2006 wrote: »

The selections for those games could inform a lot regarding the depth chart for 20/21.

Guess for second game lot of senior players could get a run out before pro14/12 starts up following weekend

FrannoFan

BloodyBill wrote: »

Im reluctant to criticise van Graan until the next season is over and then he can put forward his case. He's done OK so far. Im delighted we got De Allende and Snyman but its the bok we lost out on that was the big one, Pollard. Handre Pollard would have been a perfect fit for Munster...big guy,takes on the ball..great kicker.
Imagine Pollard and one heavy hitting tight head like Vincent Koch heading out to give Cian Healy a good contest. At this stage a Vincent Koch type destroyer is what Munster need to move on

Pollard? Never really in the running for him. Wasn't he on nearly a million at one point?

BloodyBill

FrannoFan wrote: »

Pollard? Never really in the running for him. Wasn't he on nearly a million at one point?

Oh they were in the running for him but they would have had to not go for Damien DeA.

FrannoFan

BloodyBill wrote: »

Oh they were in the running for him but they would have had to not go for Damien DeA.

The42 saying on 1.06million

Can't see how Munster ever realistically close when this was prior to the information on Carbery injury

thomond2006

The IRFU aren't going to sign off on a 1m per season contract for a player not eligible for Ireland.

salmocab

thomond2006 wrote: »

The IRFU aren't going to sign off on a 1m per season contract for a player not eligible for Ireland.

Isn’t someone else footing the bill? Or so has been said, even at though the private donor mightn’t be keen to spend that amount anyway.