Munster Team Talk Thread - New season title pending....

Eod100

Cookiemunster wrote: »

If someone like ROG were to come in after another 2-3 years of coaching in France, then that's fine. It's bringing in an experienced coach.

Employing two ex players with no coaching experience into pivotal roles was a mistake and screams of jobs for the boys.

Fair enough, thought the ''no ties with Munster'' criteria would have ruled him out experience or not.

I think there obviously needs to be a balance, and probably best if former players get experience away from Munster first but it's good to have some connection too.

Caranica

It wasn't jobs for the boys though, both retired prematurely having shown themselves to have a lot to give. Fla did the ground work before becoming a coach, not sure if Felix had any coaching qualifications or just a brilliant rugby brain.

What will poor Noni do on Today fm without Fla to ridicule

Squidgy Black

Caranica wrote: »

It wasn't jobs for the boys though, both retired prematurely having shown themselves to have a lot to give. Fla did the ground work before becoming a coach, not sure if Felix had any coaching qualifications or just a brilliant rugby brain.

What will poor Noni do on Today fm without Fla to ridicule

Felix was in the same position as Fla, joined as a technical coach and then promoted to backs and attack, it wasn't as if both of them just landed straight into the job, they both worked their way in through the setup and obviously showed to the higher ups that they had something there to be promoted.

Cookiemunster

Caranica wrote: »

It wasn't jobs for the boys though, both retired prematurely having shown themselves to have a lot to give. Fla did the ground work before becoming a coach, not sure if Felix had any coaching qualifications or just a brilliant rugby brain.

What will poor Noni do on Today fm without Fla to ridicule

If that's the reason they got the jobs, then it's the definition of jobs for the boys.

And Flannery worked as an S&C coach for Arsenals academy. Hardly groundwork for being the Munster forwards coach (even if he did well in the role).

Caranica

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/bill-johnson-set-to-move-to-ulster-as-munster-opportunities-dry-up-1.3884160

Bill Johnston to Ulster? I'd be a lot happier if the words "on loan" were in there! And if they spelled his surname correctly in the headline.

Erik Shun

Caranica wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/bill-johnson-set-to-move-to-ulster-as-munster-opportunities-dry-up-1.3884160

Bill Johnston to Ulster? I'd be a lot happier if the words "on loan" were in there! And if they spelled his surname correctly in the headline.

Im getting the feeling we're going to see quite the provincial merry-go-round this summer

Squidgy Black

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It that's the reason they got the jobs, then it's the definition of jobs for the boys.

And Flannery worked as an S&C coach for Arsenals academy. Hardly groundwork for being the Munster forwards coach (even if he did well in the role).

He was also the scrum coach for 3 years before becoming the forwards coach. Neither of them went straight into big roles of forwards/backs coach and spent time as positional coaches first in the backroom.

Plenty of teams bring old players in as lower members of the backroom staff. Leo Cullen at Leinster, Jared Payne in Ulster.

thomond2006

Caranica wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/bill-johnson-set-to-move-to-ulster-as-munster-opportunities-dry-up-1.3884160

Bill Johnston to Ulster? I'd be a lot happier if the words "on loan" were in there! And if they spelled his surname correctly in the headline.

This is very disappointing but you can't blame Johnston. The contract extensions of Bleyendaal and Hanrahan have shut the door on him. He would be Munster's #4 next season in a contract year. There's an opportunity to break into Ulster's first choice 23. It's a good move.

For Munster, Ben Healy and Alan Tynan are the young prospects now. Healy showed some promise for the Ireland U20s. I don't know anything about Tynan.

Caranica

thomond2006 wrote: »

This is very disappointing but you can't blame Johnston. The contract extensions of Bleyendaal and Hanrahan have shut the door on him. He would be Munster's #4 next season in a contract year. There's an opportunity to break into Ulster's first choice 23. It's a good move.

But Tyler and JJ cover two other positions as well so won't necessarily block 10 all the time?

thomond2006

Caranica wrote: »

But Tyler and JJ cover two other positions as well so won't necessarily block 10 all the time?

That's what I thought too but that still leaves Johnston out of matchday 23s for big games. Carbery will be the starter and Bleyendaal and JJ offer versatility on the bench. At Ulster Billy Burns is the starter but the backup spot is up for grabs.

Another season as 4th in the pecking order would ruin Johnston's bargaining power for his next contract. If Ulster are offering him say two years he'd be mad not to take it.

Cookiemunster

Squidgy Black wrote: »

He was also the scrum coach for 3 years before becoming the forwards coach. Neither of them went straight into big roles of forwards/backs coach and spent time as positional coaches first in the backroom.

Plenty of teams bring old players in as lower members of the backroom staff. Leo Cullen at Leinster, Jared Payne in Ulster.

I'm aware that he was scrum coach and have said I think he did a good job. However giving him even that position after never coaching before was an odd decision. Even Axel coached the U20s and the A team before he got the senior forwards gig.

jm08

Cookiemunster wrote: »

If someone like ROG were to come in after another 2-3 years of coaching in France, then that's fine. It's bringing in an experienced coach.

I'm not too sure what is to be learned in France that you won't learn in Ireland. For starters in France the larger your cheque book is, the better your team/coaching staff is - in Ireland the Provinces have to make do with what they have. ROG has enough experience now to take on backs coach of Munster. He was head hunted as backs coach for the Crusaders and is on his way to winning his second super rugby title as backs coach. Joe Schmidt doesn't even have one super rugby title on his cv as backs coach!

Employing two ex players with no coaching experience into pivotal roles was a mistake and screams of jobs for the boys.

Felix was originally meant to be a Dev. Officer for Munster - Rassie was so impressed with him, he made him the Skills Coach, then backs coach. He wanted to bring him to South Africa. Thats not jobs for the boys! Fla worked his way up from Scrum Coach - I bet neither will be short of offers (thats if they are going to remain in coaching). I wouldn't be surprised if Fla went back to his business interests and punditry.

jm08

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I'm aware that he was scrum coach and have said I think he did a good job. However giving him even that position after never coaching before was an odd decision. Even Axel coached the U20s and the A team before he got the senior forwards gig.

Jono Gibbs went straight into coaching from playing and he turned out alright. Leo Cullen is another one. Simon Easterby is another one.

kuang1

jm08 wrote: »

Thats not jobs for the boys! Fla worked his way up from Scrum Coach - I bet neither will be short of offers (thats if they are going to remain in coaching). I wouldn't be surprised if Fla went back to his business interests and punditry.

Errr... Am I the only one who sees a little contradiction here?
Fla won't be short of offers, but he'll probably go back to punditry... Because why?

kuang1

jm08 wrote: »

Jono Gibbs went straight into coaching from playing and he turned out alright. Leo Cullen is another one. Simon Easterby is another one.

Leo Cullen is not another one. Stuart Lancaster made Leo Cullen. Not Leo Cullen.

jm08

kuang1 wrote: »

Leo Cullen is not another one. Stuart Lancaster made Leo Cullen. Not Leo Cullen.

He went straight from playing to Forwards Coach, and one year later was made head coach. Stuart Lancaster may have made him, but he had nothing to do with his appointment as Forwards Coach or as Head Coach without doing any apprenticeship elsewhere or at underage level.

jm08

kuang1 wrote: »

Errr... Am I the only one who sees a little contradiction here?
Fla won't be short of offers, but he'll probably go back to punditry... Because why?

Maybe he doesn't want to coach any more and wants to do something else maybe. Coaching is very stressful and must be very difficult for family life as you could end up moving club/country every 2 or 3 years and there are not that many coaching jobs in Ireland. He would have been up very close with Axel and would have seen the stress he was under.

budhabob

Caranica wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/bill-johnson-set-to-move-to-ulster-as-munster-opportunities-dry-up-1.3884160

Bill Johnston to Ulster? I'd be a lot happier if the words "on loan" were in there! And if they spelled his surname correctly in the headline.

What's his current contract situation?
Edit: went back to one or thomonds posts, contracted to the end of next season.

Burkie1203

jm08 wrote: »

. ROG has enough experience now to take on backs coach of Munster. He was head hunted as backs coach for the Crusaders and is on his way to winning his second super rugby title as backs coach. Joe Schmidt doesn't even have one super rugby title on his cv as backs coach!

How many European cups did RoG win as backs coach at Racing and their big fat cheque book

Mc Love

jm08 wrote: »

I'm not too sure what is to be learned in France that you won't learn in Ireland. For starters in France the larger your cheque book is, the better your team/coaching staff is - in Ireland the Provinces have to make do with what they have. ROG has enough experience now to take on backs coach of Munster. He was head hunted as backs coach for the Crusaders and is on his way to winning his second super rugby title as backs coach. Joe Schmidt doesn't even have one super rugby title on his cv as backs coach!



Felix was originally meant to be a Dev. Officer for Munster - Rassie was so impressed with him, he made him the Skills Coach, then backs coach. He wanted to bring him to South Africa. Thats not jobs for the boys! Fla worked his way up from Scrum Coach - I bet neither will be short of offers (thats if they are going to remain in coaching). I wouldn't be surprised if Fla went back to his business interests and punditry.

ROG will only be back if the head coach position is available in my opinion

Henry Ford III

budhabob wrote:

What's his current contract situation? Edit: went back to one or thomonds posts, contracted to the end of next season.

That gets ignored if he transfers with an IRFU rubber stamp.

molloyjh

kuang1 wrote: »

jm08 wrote: »

Jono Gibbs went straight into coaching from playing and he turned out alright. Leo Cullen is another one. Simon Easterby is another one.

Leo Cullen is not another one. Stuart Lancaster made Leo Cullen. Not Leo Cullen.

I'd strongly argue that Leo and his lack of ego is what has made Leo Cullen, but that's probably just pedantey given the point being made. That said, a head coaches role isn't to make a team perform all by himself. In many ways his job is to develop the environment and the people to ensure they perform. While we may not have seen a huge amount of quality technical coaching from Leo, we have seen a guy who knows how to get the whole thing running properly. I'd take that over a quality forwards coach in that job obviously.

Hard to know what to make of the departures. Jones was expected, but Flannery is a shock. As Buer says it could be that JVG is looking to exercise more control over the forwards himself. But in his role as head coach it's more important that he gets the whole machine up and running effectively. Maybe bringing in his own guys has to be a part of that. Time will tell there I suppose.

Shefwedfan

kuang1 wrote: »

Leo Cullen is not another one. Stuart Lancaster made Leo Cullen. Not Leo Cullen.

Seriously? Give a head coach 3 years is the norm....now we are trying to say after 1 season when Leinster got to Pro14 final that Leo was a disaster and only he hired Lancaster he would be useless?

Maybe give the guy some credit

I'm aware this is the Munster thread, but it's hard to argue there wasn't an element of jobs for the boys with Cullen but he has made a success of it himself without a doubt. He shifted selection policy to youth before Lancaster arrived, that's been the cornerstone of Leinster's recent success, and he brought in Lancaster himself. I don't think there was any intention on his part or Leinster to make him head coach as early as it happened.

Buer

I posted in the last fortnight that Connacht should be making a solid offer for Johnston next season to lure him to Galway. He has a lot of potential and there's a logjam in front of him. Not for a moment did I think that he would be moving on this season though. Ulster makes a lot of sense for him. Burns has gone relatively well there but is the most vulnerable of all the provincial starting outhalves. With that said, he'll still have to contest with the likes of Lowry who is no slouch.

It will be interesting to see how much game time he gets in Belfast. Burns has a very good injury profile and isn't involved with the national squad so will be available most weeks. Regardless, he should get a chunk of pitch time from the bench at least.

It will be disappointing for Munster to lose him at this stage but they can't be too shocked given they've three lads ahead of him and he's reaching a point where he needs to be playing regularly to develop. With Carbery gone for chunks of next season, Scannell may need to cover outhalf at times or they'll take a punt on Ben Healy who was decent at U20 level but not at the same standard as Johnston, I reckon.

Just on a sidenote, Nucifora has been great for Irish rugby. He may be putting noses out of joint locally but we're utilising our resources far more sensibly in the last 2 years. Ulster have been by far the biggest beneficiaries from this but I think all provinces have enjoyed some additions from other provinces during his time as well as securing some good signings from abroad in terms of returning players or IQ acquisitions.

aloooof

Felix was also invited into the Ireland camp for the tour to America in 2017. I can't imagine Joe Schmidt is someone who'd entertain the notion of jobs for the boys.

On Bill Johnston, disappointed to see him leaving but with both JJ and Bleyendaal both retained, it makes sense for him.

Leo in my opinion was made head coach as a placeholder as no one else was available when O'Conner was sacked. He then went and delivered and Leinster ceased the search for a top dog to bring in over him. By all accounts it was Leo who led the charge for Lancaster. I do think at times that Leo is denied praise he is due, owing to his playing days and the resulting residual tribalism. Do people think it was Lancaster that turned the Leinster pack into the what it is today?

Disappointing that Johnston is leaving Munster but good to see he is staying with the provinces, he definitely has talent and we've seen plenty of outhalves from Sexton to Carty take a couple of seasons to hit the ground running.

sydthebeat

matt o connor was sacked in may of 2015

leo was made interim head coach immediately and the search was made for a new coach.

Nuicfora has reservations about installing leo as head coach, but leinster stuck by him and he was promoted to head coach in august of 2015.

now you could claim that no high level coach would have been available in a world cup year (ewan mc kenzie was available after walking from australia) but leinster stuck with leo and well, thats turned out to be a fantastic backing.

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

Just on a sidenote, Nucifora has been great for Irish rugby. He may be putting noses out of joint locally but we're utilising our resources far more sensibly in the last 2 years. Ulster have been by far the biggest beneficiaries from this but I think all provinces have enjoyed some additions from other provinces during his time as well as securing some good signings from abroad in terms of returning players or IQ acquisitions.

He's been very good in fairness.
It looks like there is a policy of "Use them or lose them" regarding what the IRFU/Nucifora considers a potential future international.

Former Former

You'd wonder if Nucifora is that bothered about the likes of Johnson though?

More likely guys are looking at the success of others who have moved and are being more pro-active about looking for moves themselves.