Munster Team Talk Thread - New season title pending....

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065343#Comment_120065343

I'd have loved to see Healy get a cap but no, I do not want caps handed out to tie players down and throw them a scrap heap.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065373#Comment_120065373

There's a chance during the 6N that while the two Irish lads go into camp that Ben Healy is called into the Scottish camp.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065343#Comment_120065343

Id rather not be Scotland, thanks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064429#Comment_120064429

So, from this, are you saying you think he made the decision to leave back in October and communicated that to Munster at that time?

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065429#Comment_120065429

I'm not sure that Healy is all that close to a Scotland squad.

Mike Blair was quoted as saying that he was looking at Healy as cover during the World Cup when his other outhalves are away with Scotland.

That doesn't sound like Blair thinks he might be losing Healy to a national squad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065484#Comment_120065484

I'd be surprised if Healy made the RWC squad, but you'd have to figure he's way closer to a cap with Scotland than he was with Ireland.

But, just to be clear, Mike Blair's actual quotes on Healy were the following:

"We have an interest in him. We are well aware Ben is out of contract. We think he's a quality player and realise he is Scottish qualified, so we're having conversations with lots of people."

and:

"You need strength in depth in certain positions. Your front rows, your 9s, your 10s, you need to plan to have some depth. With it being World Cup year it takes more planning. We are aware Ben is available and he is someone who has been spoken to over the last couple of years with an offer from Glasgow."

The piece about his "initial role almost certainly as a back up" and "Healy likely competing during the RWC with Charlie Savala for the No 10 jersey" were the comments of the author of the piece, and not explicit from Blair's comments.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065467#Comment_120065467

Or likely he wouldn't take the contract offered by Munster, made it known that he had options in Scotland. And then munster backed Crowley.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065467#Comment_120065467

I'm not saying when he made his decision.

There are a number of things to take into consideration.

Munster got a new coaching set up and there was a lot of disruption with internationals not around for pre-season or early season, then the internationals returned and a few players were called up to the EI tour.

Once Crowley returned he and the rest of the Munster lads had to be re-integrated to the squad.

Healy was involved in Munster match day squads right up to November and he saw Crowley was involved in the EI Tour and the AIs.

By then Ben could well have seen where he stood with Farrell and his chances of getting an Irish cap.

Do I know when he made his decision known to Rowntree - no

Do I think he made his decision to give up on an Irish cap based on missing out on a few Munster matches - absolutely not

Do I think he made the decision to move to Scotland because he couldn't see himself getting into favour with Farrell - almost definitely

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065544#Comment_120065544

Munster backed Crowley as soon as he returned from the EI tour where he played well - he came straight back onto the bench for the Bulls game, and played half the match at FB. Healy never started another league game since then.

Munster have backed Carbery and Crowley, and at this moment in time it looks like they've made the right decision.

It's unfortunate to lose a talented guy like Healy with good potential, but it is what it is. When a guy has other international eligibility I think you'll see the 1 year contract approach being taken (he'd be kicking himself if he'd signed a longer deal 12 months ago and found himself in the situation he's been in this year with the lack of gametime).

It's a short pro career and he has to maximise his earnings too, so I fully get why he's made this call.

phog

It seems some people are forgetting that Munster had a fit Carbery to give game time to and Crowley was shifted around to meets the needs to fill places of injured or unavailable players.

Its not that Crowley was picked ahead of Ben and Ben took the hump.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065576#Comment_120065576

His last involvement in a match squad for a league game was Oct 29th when he was an unused sub for the Ulster game.

His inability to get into an Ireland squad wasn't the issue here - it was his inability to get into a Munster squad this season.

I don't think it's realistic to assert it was a done deal for him to go until very recently. He signed his last contract in Jan 2022, and Rowntree was commenting in recent weeks about acknowledging outside interest for him, but still speaking from a position of hope that they might be able to persuade him to stay.

In reality - Munster picked Carbery & Crowley consistently between Oct and Jan because they were in a backs to the wall situation where they needed every result they could get. I'm not blaming them or criticising them for this, and as I said above, I think they backed the better player in Crowley, but I don't think there is enough out there to suggest he wasn't picked for Munster for 2 months because he was about to leave, as much as there is to suggest he's leaving because he wasn't picked for 2 months.

phog

You lost me when you went nitpicking between 29th October and I saying he was involved in match day squads up to November.

I went against my better judgement to try and engage with you. Lesson learnt.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065484#Comment_120065484

It wouldn't be great for Morale for the other 10s if Blair told them that this young fellah is coming over to take their starting spot, so I would take that statement with a pinch of Salt.

Today Blair said that Healy being Scottish qualified was an important reason for bringing him over.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065640#Comment_120065640

Ah of course, the classic Phog strop and exit when he can't actually engage in the argument. That's 2 in 24 hours with me alone, congrats.

Childish behaviour on a messaging board.

You're trying to whitewash it by saying "he's involved in match days squads up to November", when in reality he hadn't played a league game from Oct 22nd to Jan 1st.

TomsOnTheRoof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065382#Comment_120065382

I mean it's a shite thing to do, I don't disagree, but I still think it would have been the smart option.

phog

His last involvement in a match day squad was the 29th October. That's a FACT and can easily be verified.

But no, you want to nitpick and I have zero interest in engaging in a discussion with you.

Like yesterday, if you want the last word, take it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065680#Comment_120065680

You're saying this "in match squads" thing like it's a positive. Do you think Ben Healy had a positive reaction to being left sitting on the bench for the full 80 mins in a home interpro match that Munster lost? (along with being left out of the next 5 match squads as well, including two European games)

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065651#Comment_120065651

But Munster's first game in November was the 26th. So really you are talking about 5 games (the 26th Nov to 26th Dec) .

You're messages here seem to say he's leaving because munster didn't play him, but then you say you don't blame munster. So what's your actual point?

I think it's entirely possible he wasn't played in those games because he had indicated he was leaving. It's only 6 weeks ago.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065704#Comment_120065704

I urge caution here.

FtD only wants an argument not a discussion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065704#Comment_120065704

Yeah, if I have to say what I think happened it's the following:

He knew he was in a competitive spot for the Munster 10 shirt. He had had a number of approaches from Scotland, where obviously he would equally feel a strong attachment given it's the country where his mother his from.

He signed a 1 year deal because he wanted to see how his situation would evolve with Munster (and hopefully with Ireland).

He would have had realistic ambitions in Jan 2022 of making the push to the next step - he was starting in some knock out European games for them and was involved in their biggest game of the season v Toulouse.

He started the first four games this season, but Munster lost three of those 4 games.

Jack Crowley got an opportunity and seized it. The game that turned around Munster's season was the win over the Bulls, when Healy didn't feature.

From that point onwards, Healy has faded into oblivion with Munster - his solitary involvement in a meaningful game being 27 mins off the bench v Leinster, while the hype around Crowley went into overdrive, and Crowley picked up two caps during the Autumn Internationals.

Healy isn't picked for 2 months straight - and we're talking about pivotal, must win games in some cases, at the exact time when approaches are being made to him by both Munster & Edinburgh for new contracts.

He recognises he's firmly in third place in the Munster pecking order (and therefore even further back in the Ireland order), and decides to use the insurance policy he gave himself by signing the one year deal by moving to Scotland; where he is undoubtedly closer to winning an international cap.

I am saying he's leaving because Munster didn't play him, but equally, I'm saying I don't blame Munster for that. Rowntree picked the guys he rated higher to help him win some pivotal matches.

If it was a done deal 6 weeks ago, I don't think Rowntree would have been speaking in such coy terms about it as recently as this week. What would be gained by that?

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065745#Comment_120065745

I didn't say it was a done deal 6 weeks ago. I said he wouldn't commit to Munster 6 weeks ago so they went with the committed guys.

And no one was selected between October 29th and November 26th so I'm not sure why you're on about 2 months. He wasn't selected for 5 games between 26th November and 26th December. And even then, carbery was always going to play the European games and hence would need the two league games to get back up to speed with the team. So now we are talking about one game, the leinster game.

Anyway, best of luck to Healy. He'll need to start the season very very well with Edinburgh to get into their world cup squad.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065791#Comment_120065791

You're not sure what I'm on about with two months? He didn't play a meaningful game for Munster from October 22nd to Jan 1st - that's more than 2 months. He played no part in 6 pivotal games (Ulster at home, Connacht at home, Edinburgh away, Toulouse at home, Northampton away and then Leinster at home). Surely that isn't that hard to understand?

He hasn't started a game for Munster since the 7th of October, which is almost three months.

How you're contorting this to claim he wasn't selected for only one game is beyond me.

This thing about going with the "committed guys" is a nonsense. They continued to pick guys in the past who it was known were leaving, and have recently selected John Ryan to start games post it being announced he declined the option to stay.

They pick the guys who they think gives them the best chance to win games, and to suggest anything otherwise is doing Rowntree and the coaches a disservice.

phog

If Rowntree was still negotiating with Ben so recently as some would want you to believe then why would he not have used him to use a bit more carrot in keeping him.

The way some would want you to believe is that Munster were ignoring him but negotiating with him to stay too - crazy stuff really.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065791#Comment_120065791

I warned you, your posts will be twisted to suit their agenda.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065830#Comment_120065830

So, what's your timeline on this?

When do you think the decision was made, when do you think Munster offered him a contract and when do you think he decided to go?

Rowntree didn't have the luxury of throwing gametime to Healy if he didn't think he was best guy available (which he obviously doesn't). Rowntree is a first time head coach who lost 5 of his first 7 games in charge. He needed results, and he was going to pick the guys who he thought had the best chance of doing that.

Why do you find it so hard to accept the point that him not being picked for a minute of gametime for over 2 months might be the primary factor in him deciding to leave?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065835#Comment_120065835

Is there any chance a moderator could address this sort of childish nonsensical posting?

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065854#Comment_120065854

But you did twist his post and mine.

You have a habit of it

Why shouldn't I warn posters of that.

phog

Rowntree picked Ben in a match day squad to play v Ulster away from home, he played him in that game. Ben scored and converted the winning try and conversion.

Was that match a must win match, was Ben trusted.

Yet some would have you believe Rowntree doesn't trust Ben, despite Rowntree wanting Ben to stay at Munster.

Mother of god, the hoops some posters go through just to be right.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065825#Comment_120065825

Healy also wasn't in a Munster squad between the middle of May and the middle of September either. 4 months without making a squad, that's probably when he decided he wasn't wanted.

Using months whne there wasn't games to reinforce your point is just nonsensical.

John Ryan is the best option. When the choice is fairly close between two options then you go with the guy who has committed his future to the club. But you knew that. It's not even like Crowley was on the bench ahead of him. Crowley started games at 12.

FrannoFan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065484#Comment_120065484

Saw the same quote.

Third choice 10 for the team 9th in the table doesn't exactly scream international honours just yet