Munster Team Talk Thread - New season title pending....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767005#Comment_120767005

We wouldn't be treating them differently to how we currently treat any other NIQ - we typically do not allow NIQs to sign a second contract here. There have been a handful of notable exceptions (Snyman for example when he missed virtually his entire first contract with injury), but generally we don't recontract NIQs.

This would be entirely consistent with that approach.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767019#Comment_120767019

Farrell is an IRFU employee. If it was that big a deal to keep those players in the pool, he could have been asked to keep them more involved.

What is the punishment even here? People don’t make that choice unless they are basically guaranteed to be able to get very good deals in other countries,,, and they know under the existing NIQ norms that they won’t be staying long term. So, basically you are just punishing the province. Kleyn goes to france two years earlier than he would have anyway.

Essentially anyone who the irfu would actually want to keep is unlikely to be deterred by this. Maybe guys like vakh would.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767027#Comment_120767027

He wouldn’t be signing a second contract as an NIQ.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767047#Comment_120767047

Farrell is an IRFU employee. If it was that big a deal to keep those players in the pool, he could have been asked to keep them more involved.

Nah, that's bollix. He wouldn't and shouldn't stand for it. I guarantee you he had conversations with both players in terms of what he wants from players in those positions, and where he felt they fell short right now. That's his prerogative. Capping every player who retains some sort of other international eligibility would make an absolute mockery of the whole thing.

PMC83

Deleted as Ive context wrong!

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767066#Comment_120767066

That’s fine… then don’t try to create extra punishements for them if they leave.

If you like a guy so much that you want him in the pool but you are unwilling to pressurize your direct employee to keep them onside; don’t create ways then to try to punish the player. That’s so petty.

Or to be more accurate, punish the province. The punishment to Kleyn would be minimal. He’d have to sell a house and move to france 1/2 years earlier than planned, and make as much or more money.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767078#Comment_120767078

It's not an extra punishment - it's a simple situation where actions have consequences.

I don't blame Jean Kleyn if he felt he was good enough to have deserved some more Irish caps than he's gotten (though I would disagree with him), and if the chance is there to go back and play for the country of his birth, then great. But he knowingly made that decision aware that it would have adverse consequences for him and his Irish eligibility and therefore ability to recontract with an Irish province.

You're being overly emotive in your response to this - rather than just seeing it in the fairly clinical way the IRFU will view this.

If you like a guy so much that you want him in the pool but you are unwilling to pressurize your direct employee to keep them onside; don’t create ways then to try to punish the player. That’s so petty.

This isn't what it is either - it's not some blazer in the IRFU thinking "well I think Kleyn is great". It's not even specifically about Kleyn. It's about a policy the IRFU have (similar to the French JIFF system) to balance both the number of Irish players eligible for selection and a lesser priority of helping the provinces succeed.

They are not going to allow players to get skirt around the NIQ rules by becoming NIQ after they sign, and then not expect that to have consequences next time.

All they will do is apply the consistent approach they've taken previously in all likelihood and decide not to award a further contract to an NIQ player. There's nothing inherently unfair or petty in that - it's a simple act of the organisation following their own clear interests.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120766940#Comment_120766940

Kleyn said repeatedly that he wanted to play for Ireland. Farrell pushed him away by not even bringing him into the extended training camps to give him an opportunity to compete for a place on the team.

If Kleyn was a leinster player i am 100% certain he would have been capped again since 2019.

This isn't 'provincialism' by the way. Nucifora wants the other provinces to be giving minutes and building up players to feed into the national team. Farrell is ignoring these players in favour of Joe McCarthy who has done nothing overly impressive (but has some potential) by virtue that he wears a Leinster tracksuit in the stands during the European knockouts.

Or when he's not ignoring them, he's playing them against the USA and Fiji and in scratch sides against 2nd tier opposition where no matter how well they play, it doesn't matter, Farrell only counts performances against tier 1 teams when deciding his first 23

I may have missed one or two players here, but note how few caps the non leinster players have under Andy Farrell, and also where they were given their first opportunity to play in a senior irish team.

Leinster players get their first chance in the 6 nations, or against the tier 1 teams in the AIs and summer tours, Non leinster players tend to get their opportunities against tier 2 teams where they get a cap, but their performance cannot be properly judged in a heavily rotated side against low quality opposition.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767104#Comment_120767104

What consequences for the player? Kleyn goes to France this year instead of next or in two years? He will make the same or more money there. Probably more as a capped springbok.

All this does is mostly punish a province. He isn’t signing another contract as an NIQ. He would be signing a first contract as an NIQ.

So, Munster have to go out and sign a different NIQ lock instead of the one they already have.

It doesn’t make a ton of sense. This crap would only work as a deterrent with the most marginal profile. Not someone the IRFU would care about keeping.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767122#Comment_120767122

Did you make that chart? That’s very interesting.

It stacks up with what I have felt about selection. That players in the leinster system are more trusted to bed in immediately with Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767122#Comment_120767122

Why don't you produce a graphic on games won over the same time period?

I have a feeling it will look incredibly similar.

If "this isn't provincialism" then what the hell is it? Are you seriously suggesting that Wigan born and bred Andy Farrell has bias in his selection towards selecting Leinster players, and if so, why does he? What possibly logical reason is there for that?

You say : but note how few caps the non leinster players have under Andy Farrell  - which ignores two points - for the entirety of his tenure to date, (a) Leinster have been the dominant force amongst the Irish provinces and (b) only a handful of players on that list have more than a handful of caps - and the guys who do - Dan Sheehan, Ronan Kelleher, Caelan Doris, Hugo Keenan, Jamison Gibson Park and James Lowe are all elite.

This is nothing other than provincialism.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767159#Comment_120767159

I’d say it is a pretty good indicator that playing in the leinster system is very good preparation for ireland as they play such similar styles as well. Obviously, you would trust Jimmy O Brien to slot in for Ireland, as he isn’t doing anything he doesn’t do for Leinster.

People hate that as a concept on here but i think that does jive with those charts.

Edit: I’d also say that munster have consistently been farthest away from ireland’s style. So that kind of jives as well. They played more kick pressure on JVG, and now its possession. Connacht are closest to Leinster. Until this year, i would have said ulster were closer as well.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767149#Comment_120767149

Does it?

Or does it actually reflect the fact that Leinster have been by far the better side over the selection window?

There are 13 Leinster players Farrell has capped - Caelan Doris, Ronan Kelleher, Max Deegan, Hugo Keenan, Will Connors, Ed Byrne, Jamison Gibson-Park, James Lowe, Ryan Baird, Harry Byrne, Dan Sheehan, Jimmy O'Brien and Joe McCarthy.

Objectively - Doris, Kelleher, Keenan, Gibson-Park, Lowe, Baird, Sheehan and O'Brien are all elite players. That leaves 5 guys, who've accumulated a combined 20 caps, and includes some Will Connors (who was elite before injury), and some young development guys like Harry Byrne and Joe McCarthy.

FYI - the chart above also excludes a couple of guys like Michael Lowry and Mack Hansen who might have been inconvenient to the dataset, as they made their debuts against Tier 1 opponents but aren't Leinster players.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767122#Comment_120767122

The general tone of this is that you're claiming these Leinster players have unfairly been awarded more caps than they deserve, at the expense of other players (but seeing as it's you we can safely assume Munster players).

So please list out the guys who you think have gotten more caps than they deserve, and who should have gotten them?

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767241#Comment_120767241

I wouldn’t say objectively that JGP, Lowe, JOB, Kelleher or even Baird are ‘elite’ players. Although, I’m not sure what you mean by elite. Not everyone can be elite. I get that a lot of people would disagree with that on JGP. Baird is a wait and see for me.

My list for the ireland team would be sexton, ryan, furlong, porter, sheehan, doris, ringrose, henshaw, keenan, beirne, vdf. That’s a lot of players on one team already. I’m prob forgetting someone.

Anyway to answer your question, i’d say its both things at the same time.

Leinster have most of the elite players. Therefore it made sense to build the team and system around them. Therefore it is easier to fit other leinster players around them with less bedding in time.

Its not one or the other, its both. I think there have been leinster players hurt by this as well. Larmour for example doesn’t perfectly fit for leinster or ireland. He’s still an excellent player.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767278#Comment_120767278

I meant elite in the context that they're all objectively excellent players, and would have thought there was surely little to no debate about their inclusion for Ireland and the caps they've been awarded, but apparently not.

So, once again, rather than claim some grand theory - instead actually list the guys who you think have gotten caps they shouldn't have gotten from that list and who you'd have given them to.

Because the guys who a lot of the whinging seems to be about - guys like Joe McCarthy and Harry Byrne - have a grand total of 1 caps and 2 caps respectively.

Podge_irl

I would suggest we wait to see what happens to Kleyn before moaning about his treatment. Personally I think he'll be able to stay if he wants to but there is no chance Snyman is staying.

With Ireland out of the picture, he might also be quite happy to move to France. If he leaves its not necessarily because he was pushed.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767298#Comment_120767298

Who should have got more caps against tier one nations? Is that the question?

Definitely Coombes and Balacoune. I personally think they are such high level talents that they should have been shoehorned in a few times and we just take lesser team performances in the short term. That’s just my opinion. We would have been a worse team for a while but i believe in their talent.

You seem to be implying that I’m saying that Farrell did something WRONG with this overall strategy. When did i say that?

I just have an entirely different theory on firstly why he does what he does, and secondly a much more system based view of rugby… and consequently less inclined to think that every player in a team is ‘better’ in some universal sense than every player not picked on a team. That would apply to all teams not just ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767341#Comment_120767341

The only thing that has prevented Balacoune from getting more caps has largely been his own injury issues for a lot of the time frame. He was consistently selected in squads, then would pull up injured and unavailable for selection. When healthy - he was started against South Africa and Fiji last November and largely failed to impress.

I don't want to get into another endless round of discussions on Coombes - I would personally have given him more caps over the past 2 years, but he clearly isn't a style of player that Farrell wants.

Are there more than those two examples though that actually support this theory?

Or is it just a case that of the four teams we have to pick players from, shockingly, we've picked the majority of our players from the team that happened to be the best by some distance for the overwhelming majority of that time period?

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767361#Comment_120767361

I don’t think he was injured after South Africa and Fiji. And we also shifted how we played in the SA game to some degree. We played more kick chase.

He will fail to impress in the short term because again he doesn’t naturally fit our usual style.

Leinster players are already pre selected to do so mostly, so they will obviously slot in better. JOB is the best example of that. I absolutely do not think he is as good a player as balacoune.

I have no idea what you are trying to ‘prove’. How is what I’m saying inconsistent with what you are saying generally?

System fit is important, you have already acknowledged that. Leinster for anyone who has eyes and a basic understanding of rugby share a lot of the same core concepts as ireland. So, why WOULDN’T that matter?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767122#Comment_120767122

Kleyn said repeatedly that he wanted to play for Ireland. Farrell pushed him away by not even bringing him into the extended training camps to give him an opportunity to compete for a place on the team.

This is how test rugby works. Everyone "wants" to play, not everyone can. The coach can't pick players for any reason other than the best guys available to him.

Kleyn wasn't called up because he didn't deserve it. That's not Andy Farrell's fault. It's Jean Kleyn's. He's not good enough.

Your "Leinster bias" argument is utter bollocks because the forwards coach is a second row from Munster. If he's biased towards any province it should be Munster and if there's anyone in Ireland who knows more about being a second row, I don't know who it is. And still Kleyn isn't picked.

aloooof

Who’d have thought that Jean Kleyn now seems to be the most controversial player in Irish rugby…

Or at least on boards anyways.

Pretty good indication of how good a season he’s had, imo.

phog

Are there still posters that think that POC has the final say on any player playing for Ireland.

The world is round btw and global warming is real.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767423#Comment_120767423

I'm not a huge fan of Kleyn but I have no idea how you can be so definite saying he's not good enough? He's just made a Springbok training squad that have better second row options than we do.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767516#Comment_120767516

It's more bizarre for some of you to think he's had no input into the decision at all.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767540#Comment_120767540

Nobody has claimed he’s had no input.

It’s been pointed out here a couple of times that, for example, Rowntree vs JVG and Farrell himself vs Schmidt, coaches can differ from the head-coach, sometimes greatly.

But like I’ve also previously said, even if POC did plump for Treadwell over Kleyn (which, we’ve no idea if it’s true or not) it’s also a mistake imo.

There’s no contradiction here.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767489#Comment_120767489

It's not really about Kleyn though.

It's a general disaffection among a small number of posters with the Ireland set up and selections. Kleyn is just the current manifestation of same.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767565#Comment_120767565

Is it safe to say that if POC felt really strongly about Jean Kleyn and felt he deserved a chance to get a closer look at him in camp, then, at a minimum, he'd have been selected into a wider training squad?

It's not logical to think POC rates this guy really highly but that Andy Farrell is overruling him repeatedly, and therefore doesn't believe Kleyn was even worth inclusion in a training squad.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767565#Comment_120767565

Treadwell over Kleyn

All the evidence we have is that it was probably Treadwell over Molony.

Jump_In_Jack

Anyway, we have Snyman and Kleyn to the end of the season and Nankivell for two seasons.

I reckon it’ll get very interesting around December when all these decisions will have to be made about who stays, goes, and is allowed be signed.