Munster Team Talk Thread - New season title pending....

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884751#Comment_121884751

Weakest in the history of the 6N despite having the highest average world rankings for the 6N teams ever.

Also we beat SA in the "sorting the men from the boys" competition.

You are most definitely the one most in need of perspective.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884614#Comment_121884614

Yeah sorry I don't buy that. Somebody World Class if fit enough to make the 23 starts, it's as simple as that. If it was somebody like O'Mahony let's say, someone really good but not world class, maybe they only make the bench but someone world class starts. That's what happens when Tadgh Beirne for example is available, straight in when fit because he's a world class player, Snyman is very good but is not world class.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884929#Comment_121884929

 Somebody World Class if fit enough to make the 23 starts, it's as simple as that.

It really isn't that simple, tho.

By way of example, Handre Pollard started the RWC QF and SF on the bench, before starting the final.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884751#Comment_121884751

And the SH sides play at home during the summer every year which evens it out. Yeah sorry that's a cop out, they may be in camp rather than their clubs but ultimately they aren't playing games in that time, it's only a small factor if even that and if anything they play less rugby which gives them more time to be rested. Out of curiosity is there actually evidence to support what you're suggesting or are you just looking for anything that just suits you're narrative? There is no evidence to suggest this is a factor. According to the rankings 3 of the top 5 in the world are in the 6N including the top 2 in the world in the 2023 6N at least, that surely suggests there isn't much issue with the depth of the tournament and maybe more down to the fact Ireland & France were so good they made everyone else look bad?

Except in that RWC Ireland actually beat SA, not exactly men against boys is it? Ireland won by 5 points, NZL beat Ireland by 4 and then SA beat France,England & NZL by 1 point each...surely that should tell you that maybe there just isn't that much between the sides and the likes of Ireland fell short for the same reason France did, which is they were unlucky to face a similar quality opposition in a QF when in most RWC's you wouldnt face opposition of that calibre until the SF's or later when you win you're pool. If anything what the RWC showed is experience counts, if you look at Ireland and France what they both lacked in comparison to NZL/SA was experience of doing well at these tournaments meaning when he pressure was on NZL/SA knew they could do it whereas Ireland/France doubted themselves. Whereas you get England in the SF who are an inferior side to Ireland/France had no issues stepping up in the big game, because a lot of their core were losing finalists in the previous RWC.

The victories don't come with caveats. They played NZ, a similar standard side, and lost a close game...if anyone else lost like this we wouldnt be saying they were "found wanting" but we only say it with Ireland because it fits a narrative based on how they went at previous RWC's whereas anyone who bothered to analyse the game can see that this wasnt the case on this occasion.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884929#Comment_121884929

why would they start if the coaches know they are likely to only be able to last for 30 or so minutes? if it were a regular season game then snyman probably isnt risked at all but it was the last game of the season with silverware on the line

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884963#Comment_121884963

exactly

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884775#Comment_121884775

But that's the point, he adds that brutality to our breakdown play. Is it much coincidence that the games we got brutally beaten at the breakdown, versus England/NZL, were two games he didn't play in? Well yes they are completely different but the fact is you need alot of grunt in the SR, having good hands is just a bonus. It's probably the reason why Ryan has up to this season been one of the first names on the team sheet for Ireland whereas Snyman rarely starts for SA.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884994#Comment_121884994

It's probably the reason why Ryan has up to this season been one of the first names on the team sheet for Ireland whereas Snyman rarely starts for SA.

This is too simplistic too - you're comparing apples and oranges.

SA have better 2nd row depth than us. Eben Etzebeth is the best 2nd row in the world. If he was Irish qualified, I daresay Ryan wouldn't have been starting for Ireland either.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884963#Comment_121884963

I guess a difference there was Libbok was in the team already and did well so Erasmus didnt want to disrupt the continuity created, as soon as he stuttered against England he was hooked after 30 minutes.

In Snyman's case he literally started the QF only 2 games earlier so that cane really be used as an excuse.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884989#Comment_121884989

If they can only make 30 minutes then they wouldn't be picked at all.

ingo1984

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884832#Comment_121884832

Indeed France did have a good team as we're building to the world cup. England had a new coaching ticket. Won't comment on Wales, Scotland or Italy as they are all at their lowest ebb in a long time. Italy looking like they gave the most upside potential in the medium term. But let's not forget, the two home victories against England and France were against 14 men.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885019#Comment_121885019

So things aren't always that simple. Progress of a kind.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885016#Comment_121885016

Well he wouldn't be starting because Beirne and Etzebeth would be the starting pair.

I'm not really, we keep hearing this talk of Snyman being world class yet he only starts 25% of SA games...that doesnt happen if you're "world class".

Considering Kleyn made the SA 23 at the RWC yet wasn't good enough to make the Irish training squad I would question that.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885023#Comment_121885023

if they are of the quality of RG they would

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885019#Comment_121885019

snyman starting the QF is going against your point, he was good enough to start when fully fit and is so good (according to the munster coaches anyway) that he was worth a spot on the bench even when not fully fit

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885028#Comment_121885028

Well what other reason could Snyman not be starting. Its not down to continuity as he played 2 games earlier, it's not down to fitness because if anything if fitness was an issue it would be better to start him as if he comes off you can replace him whereas if he is benched and then gets injured Munster potentially risk playing with 14 men like England did at the end of their game at the weekend. There is very little logic as to why Snyman didnt start unless for the simple reason that better players in the coaches eyes were available.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121882544#Comment_121882544

McCarthy is elite at one thing and that's power carrying (and possible dominant tackling), which i will give you is an insanely valuable skill. His ceiling is very high but in a lot of pack configurations i think i'd still start ryan over him. He seems clueless around the breakdown sometimes and is way more raw than the typical leinster schools product.

Snyman is just a cheat code. I honestly don't see how it isn't obvious watching him play. Almost every tier one country would pick him first because those skills are not typically available at lock. You can replicate what ryan brings elsewhere.

And the whole vice captain thing. Leinster picking two captains just told me that ryan and ringrose would suck at being captain. Farrell obviously prefers Doris which is telling.

aloooof

I've made my peace with the whole Kleyn thing at this stage. I will say to that some of the posts on here around that time, will never not be funny to me...

Was absolutely delighted for the guy when he came off the bench in the final and got his medal.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885035#Comment_121885035

There is very little logic as to why Snyman Pollard didn't start unless for the simple reason that better players in the coaches eyes were available.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885033#Comment_121885033

They wouldnt because if that's all he could play they would just start him and replace him at half time if he cant do anymore, it's riskier to bench him and have him get injured.

He started because they moved Beirne to 6 and POM to 7. Whereas in the final they dropped Snyman and put Hodnett at 7. Maybe after that game they realised they were better with a balanced back row than having a SR at 6 and a 6 at 7, quite noticeable how Snyman was the one who bit the dust. Like I just said if he wasnt fully fit they would be more likely to start him.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885035#Comment_121885035

or they knew that coombes could move into second row if one of the starters (or RG himself) got injured and it was worth taking a punt on bringing snyman on for impact in the second half

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885045#Comment_121885045

There is logic, I just told you the logic.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885050#Comment_121885050

it isnt riskier, you keep saying it is but it isnt

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885037#Comment_121885037

I'm not sure I agree with that, I think people are judging him too harshly on the England game, the other games so far he's been doing very well. Obviously still green as expected but doing as good as could be expected so far.

Well you need to tell Erasmus and Nianbar that as they don't start him. I get obviously why he wouldn't start over Etzebeth but if he cant get ahead of someone like Mostart, who's well past his best now, then that maybe says it all. Very good player yes but not world class.

I guess it was more to do with the fact that they rotate so much that it might be better having two different captains. I mean Cullen isnt stupid, if he thought both would suck as captains he would just have picked Doris. From an Ireland perspective Ringrose has been out and Ryan hasn't started so by default the captain wasnt going to either of the two.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885061#Comment_121885061

It absolutely is, if he isnt fit and gets injured you have no other alternative whereas if he gets injured in the first 20 minutes you can replace him.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885089#Comment_121885089

gavin coombes as ive already said

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885051#Comment_121885051

Well I doubt that for the simple reason that they hadn't started a game at SR for Munster that season. Unless Rowntree said that's what they were doing I dont buy it as it just doesnt add up.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885092#Comment_121885092

And who replaces Gavin Coombes, bare in mind the other BR subs will likely have already been used. You'd resort to playing props in the BR which is far more disruptive than just simply starting Snyman and working from there.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885080#Comment_121885080

I actually noticed the breakdown stuff mostly in france game. I'm not down on him. The things he is good at are super important.

Let's agree to disagree on snyman. I just don't see it and i don't see how anyone could look at both of them play and prefer ryan. We aren't going to agree.

Boscoirl

It’s going to be amazing how good Snyman is next year.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885105#Comment_121885105

im pretty sure he had started in the second row by that stage, but even if he didnt start he definitely had moved there mid game on a few occasions.

it does add up, it just doesnt suit what youre saying

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885115#Comment_121885115

alex kendellen? seeing as he didnt come on at all from what i remember (and RG came on for POM rather than Kendellan), id image there was some sort of contingency in place if RG had to go off again after coming on

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885139#Comment_121885139

The issue is he's one of these all or nothing kind of players, it's those little things he does now that he's getting caught for that are going to make him a master of the dark arts when he gets older.

You need to remember the qualities Snyman brings while very attractive are not the most important, whereas what Ryan brings are the most important things. You see how much we miss Ryan when we played England on the weekend and I suspect when he's fit he'll be back in the team for SA in June. Maybe it could be also down to tactics, with Tony Brown as the new SA attack coach things might change specially with the fact he's their only top class lock that you could see being top class at the next RWC as Etzebeth & De Jager are unlikely to make it.