Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

Unusual reference in this piece from Rowntree, when commenting on the Kiran McDonald signing: https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/arid-40995251.html

“We moved quickly there,” Rowntree said on Saturday of McDonald’s signing. “We got the news back from Thomas on Wednesday and it’s well publicised we’re a bit thin on the deck in terms of second rows so we moved quickly there.

“There were a lot of options available to us. We picked Kiran up. Match-hardened, played every game for Wasps this season and quickly with the help of the IRFU got a deal together where he’s with us..."

What does he mean by the "help of the IRFU" with the McDonald signing? Help as in clearing the signing or did the IRFU help fund the signing?

FrannoFan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119819345#Comment_119819345

Possibly both.

All signings need nucifora approval. (They all pass his desk)

Everyone is essentially an irfu employee in the Irish system anyway. (We constantly hear how international game funds it all anyway)

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119819345#Comment_119819345

Either. Or both.

Is it really that unusual?

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119819345#Comment_119819345

All NIQ’s have to be signed off by the IRFU. Ultimately they pay all the wages. So it’s a case of definitely one and probably both.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119819693#Comment_119819693

Yeah, obviously it's a little bit more unusual if the IRFU are funding the transaction and covering the guy's wages, as opposed to Munster paying it out of their own resources.

It's nothing remarkable if it was just sign off, as it's fully understandable, but given Nucifora in the past has indicated he doesn't have much sign off in injury cover (Jaco Taute) signings, it appears to indicate Munster got financial help from the IRFU in paying the guy. Even Rowntree's language kind of indicates that:

"...with the help of the IRFU got a deal together..."

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119819763#Comment_119819763

If the IRFU funded it (and it still remains an 'if' btw) do you think they shouldn't have?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119819789#Comment_119819789

No, not necessarily. It would be another incident though of out of course exceptional financial support for Munster, that perhaps other provinces haven't gotten in the past - infamous example for Connacht a couple of years ago when refused permission to sign Pat Lam's son as a medical joker for a few weeks, while simultaneously Munster had both Taute and Saili as NIQ players in the centre positions, not to mention the more obvious effective bailout Munster received from the IRFU around the Thomond Park loan.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119819841#Comment_119819841

Aaaaaand there it is…

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119819863#Comment_119819863

Expected reaction - downplay and say "there's nothing to see here".

If Munster didn't have the financial wherewithal to fund this signing themselves, then that's definitely a topic that is worthy of discussion, especially given a pretty extensive track record of financial mismanagement there.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119819875#Comment_119819875

You're speculating about something you don't even know has happened as a means to criticise Munster.

So, ya, expected reaction indeed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119819897#Comment_119819897

This might come as a shock to you in particular, but there are occasionally areas where Munster are deserving of criticism. Their management of their finances is right up the top of that list.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119819841#Comment_119819841

I don't get the Pat Lam reference here, that wasn't a money thing.

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119820042#Comment_119820042

Yeah. Pat Lam's son was offering to play for free when he was refused permission.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119819914#Comment_119819914

I'm absolutely fine with criticism of Munster where it's justified. But when it's coming from speculation, (or factual inaccuracies as FFF has pointed out) I don't have much time for it, tbh.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119820153#Comment_119820153

I don't particularly care if you do or not anyway, because, this might be another revelation to you, but you shouldn't feel the need to respond to every single post in relation to Munster.

It was unusual wording from Rowntree in relation to the signing, and, IMO, it is noteworthy if Munster didn't have the financial resources to sign this player. You don't have to agree with that, but that's your prerogative.

The Lam scenario is not a purely financial comparison. Connacht weren't allowed to bring in a 10 as short term injury cover, when they had a crisis in that position, which resulted in Caolin Blade playing 10 for them. The reason given was that the player was NIQ.

That same scenario hasn't been applied here.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119820168#Comment_119820168

i thought it was cooney that played 10 for them?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119820168#Comment_119820168

The Lam scenario is not a purely financial comparison.

You're moving the goalposts here. You specifically said it was above:

It would be another incident though of out of course exceptional financial support for Munster, that perhaps other provinces haven't gotten in the past - infamous example for Connacht a couple of years ago when refused permission to sign Pat Lam's son as a medical joker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119820202#Comment_119820202

No, immediately following this situation (when they had a slew of injuries at 10 to Boshoff, O'Leary and Ronaldson, and Carty was injured in an Irish camp, they had to start a game with Carty who was patently unfit. He limped off in the first half and Blade went to 10.

Cooney did play 10 for them on other occasions I believe.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119820224#Comment_119820224

I've clarified my language since then around the Lam comparison.

But before we get into a typical bout of your pedantry and back and forth on quotes; are you saying here there hasn't been historical financial mismanagement at Munster?

Do you not think there is something unusual if Munster hadn't capacity to fund this signing from their own resources?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119820245#Comment_119820245

I've clarified my language since...

...being pulled up on the inaccuracy.

But before we get into a typical bout of your pedantry and back and forth on quotes; are you saying here there hasn't been historical financial mismanagement at Munster?

I'm not sure why I should continue to entertain this with your "this will be a shock / revelation to you" rhetoric but here goes.

No, I'm not saying that.

There definitely has been issues in the past. I think there was an element of bad luck to it with regards Thomond's re-development being completed right before the financial crisis hit.

Do you not think there is something unusual if Munster hadn't capacity to fund this signing from their own resources?

Not necessarily, tbh. Particularly after 2 years of Covid, and also having to also recruit a TH due to our current injury issues. We had 33 players unavailable for various reasons for the Ulster game; 1 less than for that Wasps game last year.

That sounds like an entirely reasonable position where the IRFU could help. (And I'll reiterate; we don't even know if they did!)

But this might be a shock / revelation to you, FTD: Munster are due to be back to break-even by next season. I bet you're delighted to hear that, eh? ;)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119820360#Comment_119820360

Due to break even largely simply because they couldn't meet the loan repayments on the Thomond Park loan, and had it rescheduled in 2018, to a scenario where they simply fund €100k a year, and essentially don't service any interest cost.

As of the 2021 IRFU accounts, they still owe the IRFU €6.6m or so on that loan.

Those forecasts around "breaking even" by next year mean that for the first time in around 15 years or more, Munster won't run an annual deficit, not that they won't still have significant financial obligations outstanding.

The IRFU specifically called this out in the past, having to take a provision against amounts owing to it by Munster "in light of Munster's financial difficulties."

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119820245#Comment_119820245

Do you not think it would be normal for provinces to have their budgets set at this time of the season. So bringing in additional signings would always require extra capital? I doubt any of the provinces run a budget surplus or a rainy day fund for injury crisis.

Leinster have very rarely needed this, due to the depth the academy gives. No other province has that kind of depth though.

sprucemoose

lovely to see we're all getting into the united spirit before the run of ireland games starts

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119820418#Comment_119820418

The IRFU specifically called this out in the past

Wasn't that from about 6 or 7 years ago? If you wanted to criticise Munster's finances, you should've just been up front about it at the start. You would've saved us all a lot of bother.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119820434#Comment_119820434

Yeah, that's possibly the case. Munster most certainly haven't run any form of surplus in over a decade.

It's still a point worth discussing though - how all of the provinces manage their resources, utilise their academy and bring in NIQ players.

I wasn't bringing up the point initially as a means of having a go at Munster, merely flagging the unusual language as I saw it in Rowntree's language.

The over-defensiveness that followed that to anything that could be considered a criticism of Munster is what prompted the response.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119820480#Comment_119820480

I was pretty obviously from the start querying the exact point around whether or not the IRFU were funding this signing or were Munster funding it themselves. Obviously, that is an implicit criticism of Munster's finances.

This isn't just about past events, this is directly from a quote from the Munster head coach a week ago.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119820486#Comment_119820486

The over-defensiveness that followed that to anything that could be considered a criticism of Munster is what prompted the response.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119820513#Comment_119820513

Well exactly. And last week, you were criticising Munster's recruitment of their 5th choice TH without any mention of how finances might relate to that.

Neil3030

I'm struggling to contain my excitement about Edogbo.

Hasn't looked one step out of place in the URC games so far.

19-years of age, already showing a real savvy and intelligence at the breakdown.

And just the sheer scale of the lad, AND, an apparent ability to go 80 minutes (though, caveat, at early season, URC intensity).

CIARAN_BOYLE

It's worth noting that any slack in the Munster budget could have been absorbed by signing Ryan and Morris.

It wouldn't be surprising for Munster to need assistance with their third mid season signing of the year.