Is chiropractic nonsense?

jimgoose

Don't mind any of that "alternative" ooga-booga horseshit. For these kinds of issues, I recommend Ian Wright of Clonmel Osteopaths on the grounds of Knocklofty House:

http://clonmelosteopaths.ie/

Outlaw Pete

Have this one mate who did something to his hip lifting a washing machine (as you do). For two years his hip was fcuked, could barely walk or sit straight. Was a clunking sound when he bent at the hip. Multiple MRIs said there was nothing wrong with him and so he tried a chiropractor. Whatever that guy did it worked for him as the clunking stopped and he had no more pain or joint issues.

Was listening to one of Bill Burr's podcasts recently and he maintains that some back issue he had since he was a kid was helped by seeing a Chiropractor too.

Ave Sodalis

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I'm from a science background so I'm very torn on it. On one hand, the evidence for it is very limited. On the other hand, a very good chiropractor fixed my back problem of many years, where doctors, physios and sports massages had failed.

Of course with a science background you likely also know that the internet is replete with sentences very very similar to yours above of the form "X1 solved my problem I had for years after X2, X3 and X4 entirely failed" in support of everything from Homeopathy to Spirit Healing.

With many conditions there is a certain % of people who will spontaneously just get better anyway. There are also a certain % of people who will try some Quack solution. And statistically there will therefore be a % of people who fall into both categories at the same time - and leap to conclusions because of that coincidence.

Statistics are a powerful thing. If I get enough chronic constantly relapsing alcoholics for example and subject them all to dog bites - or an old Indian rain dance - some % of them will come back with glowing testimonials that dog bites or rain dances magically and entirely cured them of their alcoholism where nothing else did. And entirely convinced of it they will be too.

There is a reason why in science we do not look to anecdote but the methodologies of things like epidemiology when evaluating the efficacy of any treatment.

Ave Sodalis

Deleted User wrote:

With many conditions there is a certain % of people who will spontaneously just get better anyway. There are also a certain % of people who will try some Quack solution. And statistically there will therefore be a % of people who fall into both categories at the same time - and leap to conclusions because of that coincidence.

Absolutely it's just an anecdote but the OP asked for specific experiences. It definitely wasn't spontaneous (muscle spasm tends to get stuck) but it helped for what was wrong with me. The rest of my post shows that I'm still not a fan of chiro, but it doesn't take away from my own experience.

r93kaey5p2izun

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I have a friend who was told that his horse's vertebrae and pelvis were out. Now, I'm doing a masters in animal physio and have another friend who is a vet. We spent a considerable amount of time trying to tell this gentleman that there is no need to panic, and that whatever the horse's problem, his back and pelvis aren't actually out. We weren't believed until xrays showed all bones in line with each other. If you have ever seen the size of a horse's pelvis, no single person will shift it with a light press. If it's back was "out", you would notice and you certainly wouldn't be able to put a saddle on it.

Yes the whole notion of it is ridiculous. Where are you doing your Masters?

Ave Sodalis

Rohan Wailing Baboon wrote:

Yes the whole notion of it is ridiculous. Where are you doing your Masters?

The UK but doing the theory and assignments from home, which works out very useful.

Beasty

Had 6 back procedures plus various injections over the years. Have been advised to steer clear of chiropractors, and have stuck to physio

They operate through manipulation. If everything goes back into place then great. For chronic issues like I have I've been told they would probably do more damage than good, as each time they force things back into place they can cause a bit more wear and tear, risking increasing longer term issues

I'm now doing strength conditioning of the back, involving weights. Was unsure at first but it seems to be improving things

THere was a guy in England years ago who used to 'do' horses' spines - a horse chirporactic.

His name was Jimmy Plimsoles or something, because he used to go visit racing yards, enter the stable where the injured horse was situated, climb up to the rafters, and dance along the horses' backs - in his slippers.

Of course, he was a complete chancer, but there was no telling that to his adoring clients. Some owners also probably employed him because they were rich, and anything was worth a try. But you often see this kind of quackery in racing - for some reason, a lot of trainers are incredibly superstitious people.

I have a relative who, when she was building new stables, hired some guy to come and visit them, to make sure that the stables didn't cross any important lines of latitude or longitude (I know..., they're man-made). Daft sh1te.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Do they refer to themselves as Doctors?

evolving_doors

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Do they refer to themselves as Doctors?

Like Dr. Dre?

DEFTLEFTHAND

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Do they refer to themselves as Doctors?

Generally not, as that title is legally protected in a medical context.

However, vets have started following the North American practice and are now entitled to call themselves Dr _____. At least they actually have to go to university, though.

Magnatu

Thanos505 wrote: »

A good chirpractor should help you reduce wear and tear on your body by bringing you into better functional alignment.

The chiropractors mantra. Also utter gobbledegook.

strandroad

Thanos505 wrote: »

A good chirpractor should help you reduce wear and tear on your body by bringing you into better functional alignment.

This is what physiotherapy does and what chiropractors borrow, only then they add layers of magic to sell you supplements or to treat allergies by manipulating your spine.

Giveaway

Everything to a chiropracter is a subluxation that they can pop back in. A general anaesthetic, a large surgical disection and 3 burley orthopaedic surgeons with leverage will reduce(re align) a truly subluxed spine with difficulty.

Ave Sodalis

Magnatu wrote: »

The chiropractors mantra. Also utter gobbledegook.

Yes and no. The idea that you have dislocations/subluxation along your spine that chiropractors fix up and you're good and straight then is gobbledegook. Particularly if they claim that it treats your ear infection. The idea of being functionally aligned is not. Crookedness is caused by one muscle being in spasm (or stronger spasm) than another and can cause a lot of pain and excess wear on joints. Thanos talks above about misaligned hips. If they mean that the pelvis is out of its place and need to be pushed back again, that is nonsense. If they mean that a muscle that connects to the pelvis is in spasm, and pulling the entire structure off to one side (without actually dislocating it), then that's possible. Kinda like those big window cleaners that use suspended platforms. If a line on one side was shortened (which is what happens during muscle spasm), then the structure would tilt.

Giveaway

Thanos505 wrote: »

Strange that you think correcting misaligned hips or bad posture is "gobbledegook".

They are not mis aligned. A chiropracter tells you this but everything is inline on the x rays. A true traumatic subluxation has huge rates of spinal cord injury

odyssey06

Wasn't Alan in Two and a Half Men a chiropractor?!
Seems like unless it's a practitioner from North America best to steer clear.

Where do osteopaths and physical therapists fit into this?
Are osteopaths more like chiropractors and physical therapists more like physios?

Thanos505

Thanos505 wrote: »

Strange that you think correcting misaligned hips or bad posture is "gobbledegook".

Maybe ask yourself why similar chancers don't pop up in areas like the engineering field, or accountancy.

Yet, they are widespread when it comes to human health - or other things that we find crucial, such as those Freeman of the Land dopes, who claim to be able to solve people's mortgage repayment problems.

These people target people at their most desperate and vulnerable. They need to be reined-in a bit

thomasdylan

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1905885/

Why would someone attend a chiropractor when there's little evidence for it and there have been strokes linked to neck manipulations by chiropractors.

Giveaway

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Maybe ask yourself why similar chancers don't pop up in areas like the engineering field, or accountancy.

Yet, they are widespread when it comes to human health - or other things that we find crucial, such as those Freeman of the Land dopes, who claim to be able to solve people's mortgage repayment problems.

These people target people at their most desperate and vulnerable. They need to be reined-in a bit

Because when the patient keels over the disease did it but when the building keels over the engineer is responsible( never the architects fault). Come to think of it maybe architects are the construction industry's chiropracters!

NIMAN

thomasdylan wrote: »

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1905885/

Why would someone attend a chiropractor when there's little evidence for it and there have been strokes linked to neck manipulations by chiropractors.

Why indeed.

Sure don't some people spend money to go to Lourdes or Medejorie to be 'healed' by a supernatural being, even though there is no evidence of that either.

strandroad

odyssey06 wrote: »

Where do osteopaths and physical therapists fit into this?
Are osteopaths more like chiropractors and physical therapists more like physios?

Physio/physical therapy is evidence based. You need a university degree to practice physiotherapy. There used to be a difference in scope between the two with physical therapy being a lighter discipline with somewhat limited scope, not sure if it's still the case.

Osteopathy and chiropractic are not evidence based (although they borrow from physiotherapy also so this part might be solid). They both add their own unverifiable understanding and concepts though so it's a case of belief not science.

Mad_maxx

Giveaway wrote: »

Everything to a chiropracter is a subluxation that they can pop back in. A general anaesthetic, a large surgical disection and 3 burley orthopaedic surgeons with leverage will reduce(re align) a truly subluxed spine with difficulty.

Indeed, the spine is very complex yet not only do Chiropractors offer the same solution to everyone who visits them, they invariably employ the same physical method to boot

To describe what they do as reductive and lacking nuance is an understatement

kowloon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJQfT9C5Adc

NIMAN

Forget the chiropractor for your bad back, just give this wan a call with your name and you'll be healed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-47297831

Effects

Rohan Wailing Baboon wrote: »

Complete quackery. Equine chiropractors in particular are the greatest load of bull.

My dad used to go to an equine chiropractor for his back.

Agricola

Complete quackery. Had a foot pain issue a few years back. Called a Chiro clinic local to me. The "Doctor" in the clinic happened to be a well known chiropractor who has appeared on Irish TV. I outlined what my GP had told me and mentioned what research I had done into it myself and asked her professional opinion on it. She clammed up and told me she'd call me back with an appointment in the coming days.....

Never heard from her again, and she became uncontactable after that.

Tried one other Chiro clinic in the next county. Quick diagnosis by a woman who was far too interested in what my line of work was, and how well I was doing financially. (Im not joking) She then presented me with a preprinted rehab plan, which involved 10 sessions at €50 a pop. Or I could pay the total up front for discount. I knew then this was a pure scam. After researching it fully and looking at the origins of chiropractic "medicine" I wasn't persuaded otherwise.

Effects

Effects wrote: »

My dad used to go to an equine chiropractor for his back.

How did he get on? Sounds dreadful. Hope it didn't last furlong.

Dante7

I know a consultant orthopedic surgeon, and he says it is dangerous nonsense, up there with homeopathy.

evolving_doors

What university do chiropractors come from?

Magnatu

evolving_doors wrote: »

What university do chiropractors come from?

Many chiropractors have degrees and certs that they bought from internet "colleges" i.e you can become fully accredited in chiropracty without actually touching a real person.

Johnnycanyon

I have had mixed results with chiropractors , one only relieved me of money another sorted me out with back pain very rapidly..Having said that if they were all quacks how come they seem to stay in business for so long, at least they do around where I live?

Canis Lupus

Johnnycanyon wrote: »

I have had mixed results with chiropractors , one only relieved me of money another sorted me out with back pain very rapidly..Having said that if they were all quacks how come they seem to stay in business for so long, at least they do around where I live?

Because people are dumb and stuff like the placebo effect is crazy weird.

judeboy101

Zero peer reviewed data to back up chiropractors, acupuncture or homeopathy.pure placebo effect, same goes for yoga, praying and mindfulness.

mcmoustache

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Because people are dumb and stuff like the placebo effect is crazy weird.

That's exactly it, distilled down to the essence.

I'll add an example, by way of a Father Ted reference.

If I ran a clinic where my treatment was to kick people up the arse, Len Brennan style, some people would report that I cured them. Some I'm sure would report that I was a quack but the important part is that some people would think that I had cured their ailment. Those who think I'm a quack won't come back but those who derived some benefit from a posterior kick would tell their friends, keeping the clinic afloat.

It's the case with all quackery. You only need a few people to report positive results and their ignorance and the placebo effect are the main reasons why people think that a piece of quackery up the arse was a successful intervention.

Ipso

Something on the origins of chiropractics.
https://darryl-cunningham.blogspot.com/2011/08/chiropractic.html?m=1

odyssey06

judeboy101 wrote: »

Zero peer reviewed data to back up chiropractors, acupuncture or homeopathy.pure placebo effect, same goes for yoga, praying and mindfulness.

Placebo effects have their place bit I think I prefer my placebo effects without any extra risk of strokes...

Mad_maxx

judeboy101 wrote: »

Zero peer reviewed data to back up chiropractors, acupuncture or homeopathy.pure placebo effect, same goes for yoga, praying and mindfulness.

I've experience of both Chiropractors and acupuncture

The Chiropractor caused actual harm

In the case of acupuncture, physiotherapist I visit does it and it has been more effective for me with some injuries than others, I do believe acupuncture is helpful however and at least does no harm

donspeekinglesh

Mad_maxx wrote: »

In the case of acupuncture, physiotherapist I visit does it and it has been more effective for me with some injuries than others, I do believe acupuncture is helpful however and at least does no harm

Acupuncture or dry needling? Dry needling has a veneer of being evidence based - needle goes where muscle hurts to release tension. Not trying to cure non-muscular illnesses like acupuncture. (I haven't looked into dry needling to see what the evidence is like, but I find it helpful, but that could as easily been regression to the mean.)

fonecrusher1

Load of rubbish.

Its basically an entirely made up school of 'healing' that relies on the placebo effect. Yes placebo effect treatment is something that can help in some cases but these guys seem to think they can cure all sorts of serious illnesses / conditions which is dangerous.

Mad_maxx

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Acupuncture or dry needling? Dry needling has a veneer of being evidence based - needle goes where muscle hurts to release tension. Not trying to cure non-muscular illnesses like acupuncture. (I haven't looked into dry needling to see what the evidence is like, but I find it helpful, but that could as easily been regression to the mean.)

It helped me with nerve pain I had I persistently from 2007 to 2013 and with flare ups after that for a few years

I'm currently nine months into another injury where I have arthritis in my foot as a consequence of a block falling on it from a height, unfortunately acupuncture has not helped for this particularly ailment as its mainly a joint pain issue

Mrs OBumble

judeboy101 wrote: »

Zero peer reviewed data to back up chiropractors, acupuncture or homeopathy.pure placebo effect, same goes for yoga, praying and mindfulness.

Not sure that's 100% accurate for praying anyways - for example https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2521827

wandererz

Go get a Thai massage & see if that helps first.

fonecrusher1

wandererz wrote: »

Go get a Thai massage & see if that helps first.

Honestly I'd say any sort of prolonged back massage is probably as likely to help with back pain as chiropractic 'treatment' is.

mulbot

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Honestly I'd say any sort of prolonged back massage is probably as likely to help with back pain as chiropractic 'treatment' is.

All of my Chiro treatments, when living away from Ireland were about 90% stretching, massaging etc. None of that "routine" cracking I've seen here. Definitely helped me, had severe neck pain for years. I still use stretching exercises, yoga etc as my main way to keep myself pain free now.

fonecrusher1

mulbot wrote: »

All of my Chiro treatments, when living away from Ireland were about 90% stretching, massaging etc. None of that "routine" cracking I've seen here. Definitely helped me, had severe neck pain for years. I still use stretching exercises, yoga etc as my main way to keep myself pain free now.

But sure is that not just a form of massage really then?

Dante7

mulbot wrote: »

All of my Chiro treatments, when living away from Ireland were about 90% stretching, massaging etc. None of that "routine" cracking I've seen here. Definitely helped me, had severe neck pain for years. I still use stretching exercises, yoga etc as my main way to keep myself pain free now.

Man runs blindfolded across busy motorway and survives and declares it safe.

Ave Sodalis

judeboy101 wrote: »

Zero peer reviewed data to back up chiropractors, acupuncture or homeopathy.pure placebo effect, same goes for yoga, praying and mindfulness.

There's a limited amount of peer reviewed data, with admittedly poor methodology (so small sample sizes etc), that suggests there might be a benefit to mindfulness. It hasn't been dismissed a quackery quite yet.



I'm not sure what the problem with yoga is? It's an effective form of exercise that targets both strength and flexibility. Now there still needs to be more studies done, but saying there's zero peer reviewed data for it is just wrong.



https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0965229906000434
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3193654/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5843960/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3099103/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1744388110000794

mulbot

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

But sure is that not just a form of massage really then?

Exactly, that's the point,. Stretching and keep g supple are what a good Chiro will work at primarily, not this cracking every bone in the body.

mulbot

Dante7 wrote: »

Man runs blindfolded across busy motorway and survives and declares it safe.

So you think stretching, muscle massage etc is nonsense?