Clocked car

Oops!

I'm starting to see a bit of a pattern here!

Del2005

Oops! wrote: »

Unfortunately OP this is the reality of your situation going by what you have posted if indeed it was a private sale. By the sounds of it the seller is not interested anymore.... Anybody threatening him will do nothing...

I'm in the motor trade and see this situation every week... Lesson learned and move on from the situation for your own sake.... It will only stress you out even more.

According to the OP he's got 4 cars for sale now. While he might not have a showroom he's definitely in the trade, so it's not a private sale. But he's most likely the type who doesn't care so there's still no come back for the OP.

Oops!

There's plenty of people selling 3 or 4 cars on donedeal and believe me they are not all in the trade!

They are chancers that give the genuine sellers and trades people a bad name..... But they will always be around, that's where people like the OP get it into their head that doing things on the cheap is the best way..... Everybody should befriend a good mechanic!

Oops!

I sell the odd car myself privately, but when i do the person knows what the are buying and are under no illusions or doubts..... And never had i anybody back complaining... It's just not worth the hassle from both sides....

It's scut mungers like this fella pawning off sh**e cars to the general public that f**ks it up for the genuine sellers.

Del2005

Oops! wrote: »

There's plenty of people selling 3 or 4 cars on donedeal and believe me they are not all in the trade!

They are selling multiple cars regularly so they are in the trade it's just that nobody in the trade wants to admit it.

joeguevara

Bettyboop wrote: »

He has 4 ads selling cars as we speak. My son who is abroad mentioned his
friends paying him a visit but when you dont know who this guy could be associated with I would be fearful for them

This is the worst thing that your son could do. It is admirable he wants to help his mother but unless his friends have experience in that sort of thing they will more than likely realize that they have bitten off more than they can chew.

I think go down the legal route would be your best bet. If there are numerous cars for sale on the website you should be able to prove it’s not a private sale but a business. This means you have way more protections and avenues for compensation. If he has a lot or a yard then simply parking there and saying your story to everyone who goes in might convince him to pay back to get you off his back. But don’t let your sons friends try and act heavy with him. Too many stories of car dealers with links to gangs who don’t care what they do.

Zubeneschamali

corner of hells wrote: »

Interested , how many wheels has the tricycle got ?

Swap for 3 legged hamster and empty soup tin?

kippy

No doubt the OP could have done more research before buying the car but this guy and others like him need to be regulated.
What exactly defines whether he is 'in the trade' or not? To me someone who is buying and selling cars without registering them in their own name is 'in the trade' and they need to be regulated and provide the same guarentees as those who are 'in the trade'. SIMI whose members are getting screwed by these types of traders or the Consumer Protection Agency (or whatever they are called now) need to do more to take these changers out of the loop.
There are not 'private' sales so should have more protection for the consumer.
Selling a clocked car is dangerous no matter the status of the sale and the OP should have some protection. Engaging the CPA and or solicitor may be required.

Henry Ford III

Oops! wrote:

There's plenty of people selling 3 or 4 cars on donedeal and believe me they are not all in the trade!

They are still trading imho.

joeguevara

Henry Ford III wrote: »

They are still trading imho.

There is no threshold of when they become a car dealer. It is to do with objective. If they buy and sell cars with a purpose of making a profit then that moves them from private seller to car dealer. However you would need to prove that in a court of law. Now if the car was bought forb30k it would probably be worth your while. If it is only a few thousand then the legal fees would outweigh anyvwin.

Avatar MIA

Henry Ford III wrote: »

They are still trading imho.

It's whether Revenue consider them trading is what matters. It's possible/probable this person is.

Rather than employing heavies, this is the "conversation" I'd have with the seller.

Question for OP.

How do you know now the car was clocked, but not before purchase?

Bettyboop

joeguevara wrote: »

There is no threshold of when they become a car dealer. It is to do with objective. If they buy and sell cars with a purpose of making a profit then that moves them from private seller to car dealer. However you would need to prove that in a court of law. Now if the car was bought forb30k it would probably be worth your while. If it is only a few thousand then the legal fees would outweigh anyvwin.

Going down the legal route not prepared just to let it go and let this
Scammer away with it. No matter what the outcome I am prepared for the long haul. Thank you all for the comments:)

joeguevara

Bettyboop wrote: »

Going down the legal route not prepared just to let it go and let this
Scammer away with it. No matter what the outcome I am prepared for the long haul. Thank you all for the comments:)

Just so you know the legal route could take years. Could cost upwards of 30 years. No guarantee you will win so may have to pay their costs. For what? How much are you out? Don’t let anger leads decision that could potentially bankrupt you.

Bigus

This government crowd take clocking seriously and will follow as it's now a criminal offence unlike up to relevantly recently .

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/cars/car-clocking/

Fr_Dougal

Take a screenshot of every car he has up for sale. It will strengthen your case that he’s a dealer. Dealers have a responsibility to ensure that cars are legitimate.

colm_mcm

Lads even if he’s the biggest scum bag going and you have all the records in the world and even if he’s prosecuted for something there isn’t a chance in hell of the OP getting a penny out of him.

Oops!

Correct...

Samuel T. Cogley

I thought they made clocking a criminal offence - it was certainly in Bill form in 2013.

Editr: Missed Biggus' post. Insist the Gardaí take it seriously.

colm_mcm

Road traffic act 2014

PART 5

Miscellaneous

Interference with odometer of mechanically propelled vehicle

14. (1) A person shall not interfere or attempt to interfere with the odometer of a mechanically propelled vehicle.

(2) A person who contravenes, or who procures another person to contravene, subsection (1) commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a class C fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months, or to both.

(3) Where a member of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that a person is committing or has committed an offence under this section he or she may arrest the person without warrant.

(4) Where a person is charged with an offence under this section it shall be a defence to show that at the time of the alleged offence the person was acting in good faith in order to test, repair or replace the odometer of the mechanically propelled vehicle.

(5) In this section “odometer”, in relation to a mechanically propelled vehicle, means the device that measures and records the distance travelled by the vehicle but does not include an auxiliary device capable of being reset to measure and record individual journeys

Consumer protection act 2007

47.— A trader who engages in any misleading commercial practice described in section 43 (1) or (2) commits an offence and is liable on conviction on indictment or on summary conviction, as the case may be, to the fines and penalties provided in Chapter 4 of Part 5 .

Proving the seller knew about the clocking is the key thing.

Bigus

colm_mcm wrote: »

Lads even if he’s the biggest scum bag going and you have all the records in the world and even if he’s prosecuted for something there isn’t a chance in hell of the OP getting a penny out of him.

Not necessarily, there's at least one reported irish case where the victim got a full refund of about 15 k , the consumer affairs people leaned on the trader to give the refund to the customer in order to lessen potential prosecution consequences, i.e. Doing time was taken off the table.

And here's another one
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/motor-dealer-fined-500-for-car-clocking-1.3265918

Avatar MIA

colm_mcm wrote: »

Proving the seller knew about the clocking is the key thing.

The OP would need to clarify why she believes the car has been clocked. Nothing on that yet.

colm_mcm

Bigus wrote: »

Not necessarily, there's at least one reported irish case where the victim got a full refund of about 15 k , the consumer affairs people leaned on the trader to give the refund to the customer in order to lessen potential prosecution consequences, i.e. Doing time was taken off the table.

And here's another one
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/motor-dealer-fined-500-for-car-clocking-1.3265918

That’s an actual business, not someone who will say this was the first car they ever sold.
Totally different ballgame when it’s a “private sale”

Bettyboop

Avatar MIA wrote: »

The OP would need to clarify why she believes the car has been clocked. Nothing on that yet.

Car has 179kms on clock , I found a sticker in car with name of mechanic
who serviced this car from new and his last reading was 330kms my mechanic
rang him.
Dealer advertised it as having 220kms. He had no NCT cert for me as he said it got lost but I checked on NCT site and motorcheck and its NCTed for another
8mths but motor check had no odometer readings

Avatar MIA

colm_mcm wrote: »

That’s an actual business, not someone who will say this was the first car they ever sold.
Totally different ballgame when it’s a “private sale”

And it's possible he only ever dealt with cash.

But, if he didn't he may need to explain transactions in his bank account.

1874

Id be going to him and telling him to take the old car back and source a replacement or you'll go to the small claims court and threaten revenue too, it might not phase him, but its worth a try, make sure you screenshot all his car ads.
If he just ignores that, then what option have you, he isnt a private seller as such, by selling on a few cars, that makes it appear to make a profit, Im not against that, but when someone clearly gets stung.


Would not buy off someone that could not prove they were the owner, if they arent the owner, then effectively they are a dealer.


If no joy, report him to the ccpc, revenue and take a small claims case against him, if after that you still get no joy, Id be looking for every advert he has online.

Bettyboop

1874 wrote: »

Id be going to him and telling him to take the old car back and source a replacement or you'll go to the small claims court and threaten revenue too, it might not phase him, but its worth a try, make sure you screenshot all his car ads.
If he just ignores that, then what option have you, he isnt a private seller as such, by selling on a few cars, that makes it appear to make a profit, Im not against that, but when someone clearly gets stung.


Would not buy off someone that could not prove they were the owner, if they arent the owner, then effectively they are a dealer.


If no joy, report him to the ccpc, revenue and take a small claims case against him, if after that you still get no joy, Id be looking for every advert he has online.

Thank you. Have spoken to mechanic who serviced this car since new and he said the main Dealership who took car as a scrappage deal should have known it should not be put back on road. And why they sold on to this dealer is questionable. Yes he updates his cars for sale and adds one or 2 daily. Have pics of them all sold ones etc .

1874

Id keep a record, Id even go to the point of enlisting someone to look at another car of his, with the view to discovering some of his details/address. (so dont get anyone else to go around threatening him, they'll be identifiable and you dont know what will come of it).

Personally I wouldnt part with money unless I knew all the details and had all the paperwork and compared it to the car and to the person selling and I knew who they said they were and their address, otherwise you could be getting sold a stolen car, anyone thats a private owner and is cagy about providing details is putting themselves in that category as they should be able to provide that information, if they wont they dont realise the immunity an actual private seller has in this situation, or they know there is something to hide, the buyer has the time to peruse these details, if they cant be provided then it could point to something, once money has changed hands, its too late to get anything checked or sorted easily after that unless you can scare them with the revenue angle.


If you get no where, report to cpcc and revenue and take a small claims case, showing mutliple cars for sale.


last car I sold, while ago now, for my mother to save her the hassle, after buyer agreed to purchase, brought them to my mams house, showed them the paperwork, signed up, I made sure I confirmed their details too so she wouldnt get stung in case they failed to transfer ownership over or it was incorrect, put in postbox so we could both see it was done. At one point they insisted on getting a copy of my mothers licence and I think her insurance, which I outright refused, no need for it, I think they were afraid of getting scammed themselves, showing ID/paperwork is ok, if someone wont, or doesnt have it, then something is up.

colm_mcm

The scrappage thing is a bit of a red herring. These are just manufacturer incentives for selling cars and there’s no onus on anyone to actually scrap the car.

Mervyn Skidmore

How much did you pay for the car? If it's less than 2000 then small claims may be an option.

1874

https://www.thejournal.ie/stolen-car-sales-4525707-Mar2019/


Just found this, and Why you need to carry out extensive checks for any car,
Dont buy in a sale privately or suggested as privately if the person does not sell from their home with details, Im still not quite sure how these people bought cars that were stolen, I guess with faked documents, but these should be possible to confirm,



something which would be easier, if NCT information was more easily accessible online (but not address details or owner name)

Even motortax.ie should provide information like number of owners and changes, it should go back a few years and include dealer ownership changes.
car history websites should be supplementary to that for outstanding finance and potentially write offs and a confirmation of mileage.
I paid for some full car history checks and they still did not have complete details.