Italy vs Ireland match thread, 24-2-2019.

troyzer

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Fair play to Joe. Just talking sense.
However We know Murray will start v France. So I don’t see them reversing the crisis of confidence.
I think Beirne and Henderson should start. Beirne can bring those big turnovers and inject some much needed confidence boosters.

So leave one of the best locks in the world out of the 15?

Right...

Losty Dublin

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

one of the most forgettable games in quite some time, which is probably exactly what they should do, and move on.

Look on the bright side. It's made you forget about the Scotland-France game from yesterday

M50Jct15

Well...that was not exactly according to plan...though bonus point and win were necessary and achieved.

is_that_so

troyzer wrote: »

He missed 3 in 50 minutes. Scannell missed 2 in 30 minutes.

It's not all Cronin.

Haven't seem much of Scannell at this level but Cronin is really not the best thrower. With the talent at Leinster and Ireland he's got away with it. He's on the pitch for other reasons, particularly that barracking run he does so well. Outside of Best , who do we have who can throw reliably?

troyzer

is_that_so wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

He missed 3 in 50 minutes. Scannell missed 2 in 30 minutes.

It's not all Cronin.

Haven't seem much of Scannell at this level but Cronin is really not the best thrower. With the talent at Leinster and Ireland he's got away with it. He's on the pitch for other reasons, particularly that barracking run he does so well. Outside of Best , who do we have who can throw reliably?

I'm not saying that Cronin is a great thrower but it wasn't his fault today. The calls were all over the place.

Akrasia

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Certainly two of Cronin's missed were when he threw and the lift was in a totally different places. If Scannell was missing throws on the same basis then it's the caller who's at fault here, not the thrower.

It could be the thrower not knowing his calls

is_that_so

joseywhales wrote: »

A few weeks? He is contracted until after the world cup. As I say he doesn't need to be as good as he was to be the best seven. Not that the alternative aren't good but I still think he is better. We are building for the 2019 world cup not 2023.

Was under the impression he was off post-haste. I'd have him in 23 rather than on the pitch.

is_that_so

troyzer wrote: »

I'm not saying that Cronin is a great thrower but it wasn't his fault today. The calls were all over the place.

I'd say it was a collective screwup but he's not the greatest at all.

Stone Gossard

troyzer wrote: »

Leavy is injured. Conan's best chance is to become the starting 8 and push Stander to the bench. It's unlikely but still possible.

Yeah, of course it is ..in the same way that Sexton will be dropped for Tyler Bleyndahl

Podge_irl

troyzer wrote: »

Furlong, SOB, POM, Murray, Sexton, Earls, Kearney, Stockdale and Aki all started. That's 9 players who are Ireland starters at full strength.

Wales had 3: Navidi, Adams (debatable) and Davies.

I think we can discount Aki from that - so basically half a team of changes. That is a huge amount. Particularly having 5 of 8 of the pack changing.

The performance was crap, I'm not really arguing that - but it was far from Ireland's "first-choice" team.

troyzer

is_that_so wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

I'm not saying that Cronin is a great thrower but it wasn't his fault today. The calls were all over the place.

I'd say it was a collective screwup but he's not the greatest at all.

You pick him for his insane carrying, not his throwing.

I actually agree with the idea of him in the 16 jersey. Best is a better nuts and bolts hooker but Cronin off the bench is class. His carrying is unreal.

troyzer

Podge_irl wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Furlong, SOB, POM, Murray, Sexton, Earls, Kearney, Stockdale and Aki all started. That's 9 players who are Ireland starters at full strength.

Wales had 3: Navidi, Adams (debatable) and Davies.

I think we can discount Aki from that - so basically half a team of changes. That is a huge amount. Particularly having 5 of 8 of the pack changing.

The performance was crap, I'm not really arguing that - but it was far from Ireland's "first-choice" team.

It was much closer than Wales.

is_that_so

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think we can discount Aki from that - so basically half a team of changes. That is a huge amount. Particularly having 5 of 8 of the pack changing.

The performance was crap, I'm not really arguing that - but it was far from Ireland's "first-choice" team.

Sure but it was probably considered a good chance for those outside the 23 to stake a claim and none of them really did.

mangobob

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Fair play to Joe. Just talking sense.

Didn't see the interview. What did he say?

joseywhales

Maybe I'm deluded but i still think we have a good chance at grinding out two more wins.

Wont win it but I would take 4/5 wins any year. Wales will be incredibly tough though.

troyzer

joseywhales wrote: »

Maybe I'm deluded but i still think we have a good chance at grinding out two more wins.

Wont win it but I would take 4/5 wins any year. Wales will be incredibly tough though.

If we get Henshaw and Ringrose back plus a big kick up the arse, we'll probably beat France.

But we're going to get battered in Wales without a dramatic improvement.

is_that_so

joseywhales wrote: »

Maybe I'm deluded but i still think we have a good chance at grinding out two more wins.

Wont win it but I would take 4/5 wins any year. Wales will be incredibly tough though.

I think the potential is there on paper but from what we've seen on the pitch perhaps a longer shot in reality.

Pepp1989

troyzer wrote:

You pick him for his insane carrying, not his throwing.

Shouldn't be picking a hooker who can't throw. No matter how good he is around the park. Cronin's throwing has been his achilles heel for years and it hasn't improved. Not test standard.

lawred2

joseywhales wrote: »

Maybe I'm deluded but i still think we have a good chance at grinding out two more wins.

Wont win it but I would take 4/5 wins any year. Wales will be incredibly tough though.

Anything is possible but I wouldn't be betting on it. But with a good performance against France and then the added motivation of ending a grandslam dream in Cardiff it could very well happen.

Could.

But I can't see it.

Dubinusa

Fair play to Italy! They were up for it.
COS is not in any danger. The u20's are good and Benetton are playing very well.
As far as us?
Very poor. Very limited. JS sticking to out of form half backs.
Some lads did ok! Kilcoyne was fine. Dillane was good.
I thought Jordi was good. He got through a lot of work.
Henderson was good. VDF was very good.
Otherwise, Furlong was ok, Cronin was poor. Roux was ok. SOB was poor. POM was good. Scannell was not great, but he wasn't on long enough. Ryan and Jack went ok.
Murray was awful. Sexton was poor.
Stockdale was immense, imo. Farrell was good. Conway was soso. He didn't really get to show much. Earl's was very good and Kearney is very limited. He wasn't poor but. He seems slow.
I guess, we should be content to have a week off.
There's so much wrong with this team, it's difficult to to find the deficiencies.
France will beat us if we continue to play like turds.
Our set piece is not great, line outs, and there's just so much predictability about us.
It's strange that I keep hoping somehow the ball ends up in Stockdales hands.
Even Sexton looks lost.
Toner is vital! No doubt about it. He changes our game so much. Secure line out ball and a workhorse. He may not be as athletic as Dillane or Henderson but he makes us better imo.
I think Murray needs to bench it be omitted. He's been so bad it's worrying. He's slow at the rucks and his kicking has been off.
2 weeks is enough time to get it together.

Sheep Shagger

Pepp1989 wrote: »

Shouldn't be picking a hooker who can't throw. No matter how good he is around the park. Cronin's throwing has been his achilles heel for years and it hasn't improved. Not test standard.

Same could be said for Best.

Donald Trumped

I'm a huge Johnny Sexton fan. But his lukewarm embrace to Jack Carty, when the Leinster man heading off the pitch for the Connacht man, (not too dissimilar to golfer Bryson deChambeau's antics in the European Open last July), who was making his 1st start in a Irish jersey was so unprofessional. Sexton's body language today was of a man that needs to take a complete break from the game. Likewise for Murray. Whether Schmidt and the IRFU will give them this much needed time off is another question.

realhorrorshow

Dubinusa wrote: »

Fair play to Italy! They were up for it.
COS is not in any danger. The u20's are good and Benetton are playing very well.
As far as us?
Very poor. Very limited. JS sticking to out of form half backs.
Some lads did ok! Kilcoyne was fine. Dillane was good.
I thought Jordi was good. He got through a lot of work.
Henderson was good. VDF was very good.
Otherwise, Furlong was ok, Cronin was poor. Roux was ok. SOB was poor. POM was good. Scannell was not great, but he wasn't on long enough. Ryan and Jack went ok.
Murray was awful. Sexton was poor.
Stockdale was immense, imo. Farrell was good. Conway was soso. He didn't really get to show much. Earl's was very good and Kearney is very limited. He wasn't poor but. He seems slow.
I guess, we should be content to have a week off.
There's so much wrong with this team, it's difficult to to find the deficiencies.
France will beat us if we continue to play like turds.
Our set piece is not great, line outs, and there's just so much predictability about us.
It's strange that I keep hoping somehow the ball ends up in Stockdales hands.
Even Sexton looks lost.
Toner is vital! No doubt about it. He changes our game so much. Secure line out ball and a workhorse. He may not be as athletic as Dillane or Henderson but he makes us better imo.
I think Murray needs to bench it be omitted. He's been so bad it's worrying. He's slow at the rucks and his kicking has been off.
2 weeks is enough time to get it together.

Can't say I understand this logic. If he were head of rugby development then maybe but the head coach of a national team should not be judged on the results of teams he doesn't coach. Benetton are going well because they are very well coached, by Kieran Crowley. They are very tough and well organised, Italy are neither.

The Lost Sheep

troyzer wrote: »

You pick him for his insane carrying, not his throwing.

I actually agree with the idea of him in the 16 jersey. Best is a better nuts and bolts hooker but Cronin off the bench is class. His carrying is unreal.

But a hooker is there for the nuts and bolts of the position first and foremost. Being an unreal carrier is a bonus but worth feck all if the basics of position are missing/poor

The Lost Sheep

troyzer wrote: »

You pick him for his insane carrying, not his throwing.

I actually agree with the idea of him in the 16 jersey. Best is a better nuts and bolts hooker but Cronin off the bench is class. His carrying is unreal.

But a hooker is there for the nuts and bolts of the position first and foremost. Being an unreal carrier is a bonus but worth feck all if the basics of position are missing/poor

is_that_so

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Same could be said for Best.

He's much more reliable at this level and he gets the calls right far more often. There is a reason why this was Cronin's first 6N start.

squawker

Donald Trumped wrote: »

Sexton's body language today was of a man that needs to take a complete break from the game. Likewise for Murray. Whether Schmidt and the IRFU will give them this much needed time off is another question.

don't be ridiculous, both players are just searching for form at the moment

is_that_so

squawker wrote: »

don't be ridiculous, both players are just searching for form at the moment

You mean like finding themselves? :P

Burkie1203

Donald Trumped wrote: »

I'm a huge Johnny Sexton fan. But his lukewarm embrace to Jack Carty, when the Leinster man heading off the pitch for the Connacht man, (not too dissimilar to golfer Bryson deChambeau's antics in the European Open last July), who was making his 1st start in a Irish jersey was so unprofessional. Sexton's body language today was of a man that needs to take a complete break from the game. Likewise for Murray. Whether Schmidt and the IRFU will give them this much needed time off is another question.

What a load of total BS.

Murray needs games but not at international level.

Sexton is undercooked. A break is then last thing he needs

leakyboots

Schmidders not looking happy, and rightly so. This was quite a worrying performance, lineout wobbled massively at times, some of it down to the thrower, some of it not. When you consider the amount of handling errors, if you fixed even half of them the scoreline would have changed dramatically and we'd be saying 'we had a few uncharacteristic handling errors'. We just haven't fired

Initial thoughts....

Killer - think he was a good shout for MOTM. Brilliant in the loose in the first half when virtually the whole team was playing poorly, 10 carries, 5 defenders beaten, did well in the scrum, 10 tackles none missed. Excellent day at the office and I think laid down a marker as securing his place as backup. It won't happen but would like to see him start another in a 'bigger' test in the next couple of weeks to see where he's at, this was 'only' Italy, but very encouraging performance .

Cronin - lineout woes, some his fault, some not. Thought he tackled well (10/0) and had one or two good carries. The fact that he was hauled ashore at 47 mins spoke volumes. Didn't take his chance to be honest, I'd hope Scannell gets the shout next time

Furlong - Thought he was great in the first half when we were under the cosh. 13 carries, not making positive yardage but took on loads of dirty ball. Did manage to bust through them once.

Roux - Did well for the try but apart from that I was not too impressed overall with him - he only made 4 tackles, missed 2. Bundee Aki made 4 tackles and he went off injured early. Contrast his work rate with Dillane's. Maybe someone can point out the other work he got through?

Dillane - massive work rate. Had one bad spill but I think his overall contribution was huge - twenty tackles, missed a couple but what an engine. And was he off the pitch temporarily at one point? Super day at the office.

POM - not sure he deserved MOTM but he was up there. Part of a backrow where SOB was off the pace and Jordi Murphy looked a bit lost at times. Dominated the lineout, stole ball on the ground, 14 tackles with none missed. Did gave away a couple of penalties but he plays on the edge like that if you took that away from him you wouldn't get things like turnovers out of him.

SOB - Vying with Murray for poorest player on the pitch today. Looked underpowered in contact, poor passing, gave away 3 penalties. Think he's under real pressure from Leavy and VdF now.

Murphy - Mixed bag. Initially I thought he was anonymous but to be fair looking through the stats he did take on lineout ball and have a decent amount of tackles which I didn't notice during the game proper. That said, he was poor with ball in hand, 11 carries and made no ground (3m), did use good footwork to get himself out of trouble on occasion. I think we missed Stander massively today. Conan would have offered more I think too. Not sure I'd like to see him line up at 8 in a WC

Murray - Got the all important try with one of his trademark snipes, lovely placekicking but apart from a couple of periods where he linked up well over the phases, was quite poor over the period of the whole game. Stripped in contact or at the base of the ruck/maul far too much, nearly charged down once. I'm sure he'll be thrown to the wolves on here but I wouldn't be dropping him at all. This is probably his first dip in form across his career that I can remember.

Sexton - I don't know what to make of him, he didn't take the game by the scruff of the neck, wasn't able to take kicks by the end. Awful pass to Earls off our lineout. Some poor restarts. Why wasn't he subbed? I'd lay the blame at Schmidder's door there. Took a lot of punishment as usual (some of it illegal). Made the most tackles in the backline and had a couple of nice moments in attack. Mixed bag for me bordering on poor.

Stockdale - super in attack, what a prospect he is. Menace with ball in hand from the first to the 80th minute. I think this might get lost in all the praise but he was a little bit shaky in defence a couple of times, a couple of poor reads, turned his back on an attack and some missed tackles. Poor offload at the very end there too (he had run half the length of the pitch to be fair!). I don't want it to seem like I'm down on him, could have been MOTM - the positives vastly outweigh that though, brilliant to have this level of scoring threat on the left wing now

Aki - think we saw his importance today, it took us a very long time to restructure when he went off and it was only the second half when the backline looked more settled.

Farrell - thought he had a super game, made absolutely massive yardage with ball in hand, soft hands to put Earls through for the clean break that we couldn't finish off. Solidified himself as a backup to Ringrose. Someone said we missed Ringrose today but I don't think we did as much as that to be honest, Farrell

Earls - super finish for the try, unlucky not to bag another. Made some very impressive decision in defence, particularly in the lead up to the Italian try where he held off tackling the kicker, beat the cover only to get fouled off the ball and was back up to prevent the other support runner from scoring. On the negative side did get bounced once or twice, think he turned his back once but got back to make the cover tackle after Kearney missed his man. Could have been MOTM. Joined Hickey as joint-third highest all-time scorer. Up there as one of our best wingers of all time you'd have to say with the likes of Hickey, Geoghan and Bowe.

Kearney - I'm sure I'll shock people but I thought he was poor today. Turnstile in a one-on-one, which he always has been, and didn't offer anything in attack at all where all his counterparts made hay at times. Poor spilled ball under no pressure. Good clearance kick at one point, another was kept infield but not sure was that on purpose. I just thought he didn't get as involved as he could have in general and another game has passed where we could have looked at one of the incumbents.

Conway did well with limited ball, bounced once in the tackle once but didn't see as much ball as Stockdale did. I thought the lineout looked more stable when Scannell was on, but then someone pointed out he lost 2 balls so maybe that's confirmation bias on my part. Maybe he missed a bit closer than Cronin (!), who seemed to overthrow. I thought Schmidders could have brought on subs earlier (Scannell aside).

Del.Monte

Probably not a bad result for Ireland - better that sweeping all before us before the World Cup. A team that wins even when playing badly is fundamentally a good team.

TimHorton

10 is a problem, Carty gets 2 mins and knocks on , Where do go when Sexton/Carberry are out - Is Byrne the answer ??

martingriff

Donald Trumped wrote: »

I'm a huge Johnny Sexton fan. But his lukewarm embrace to Jack Carty, when the Leinster man heading off the pitch for the Connacht man, (not too dissimilar to golfer Bryson deChambeau's antics in the European Open last July), who was making his 1st start in a Irish jersey was so unprofessional. Sexton's body language today was of a man that needs to take a complete break from the game. Likewise for Murray. Whether Schmidt and the IRFU will give them this much needed time off is another question.

I was just going to say this. If I had Schmidt's ear what I would say is Sexton & Murray are more then likely your 2 starter for the World Cup so due to that you need to have an eye to then. So you need to tell both they will not be playing anymore in the 6 Nations (if that means giving up on it then so be it) go back to Munster & Leinster and get your fitness and health back for the World Cup. I am not a great fan of the IRFU telling the provinces to curtail timing of players but in this instance it may help. Of course they need to play especially with the Champions Cup but get them fit and healthy

Donald Trumped

squawker wrote: »

don't be ridiculous, both players are just searching for form at the moment

I think its a lot more than both men are just "searching for form at the moment". Both men looked dead in their feet and are mentally and physically in a bad place at the moment. To say that Sexton and Murray are not playing to the 2018 levels would be an understatement.

martingriff

TimHorton wrote: »

10 is a problem, Carty gets 2 mins and knocks on , Where do go when Sexton/Carberry are out - Is Byrne the answer ??

Carty was on for only a couple of minutes how about give him a chance. Carberry had hid mistakes when he cam on

martingriff

Del.Monte wrote: »

Probably not a bad result for Ireland - better that sweeping all before us before the World Cup. A team that wins even when playing badly is fundamentally a good team.

A bit of cohesion and good play would not go amiss for 80 minutes

its_phil

TimHorton wrote: »

10 is a problem, Carty gets 2 mins and knocks on , Where do go when Sexton/Carberry are out - Is Byrne the answer ??

Really? A two minute cameo and a knock on from a pass that went behind the runner and Carty trys to clean off the floor.

martingriff

Burkie1203 wrote: »

What a load of total BS.

Murray needs games but not at international level.

Sexton is undercooked. A break is then last thing he needs

I agree but they need both need an International break

TimHorton

martingriff wrote: »

Carty was on for only a couple of minutes how about give him a chance. Carberry had hid mistakes when he cam on

FFS Ireland Caps should be deserved not handed out , Complete Joke to bring him on.

realhorrorshow

martingriff wrote: »

I was just going to say this. If I had Schmidt's ear what I would say is Sexton & Murray are more then likely your 2 starter for the World Cup so due to that you need to have an eye to then. So you need to tell both they will not be playing anymore in the 6 Nations (if that means giving up on it then so be it) go back to Munster & Leinster and get your fitness and health back for the World Cup. I am not a great fan of the IRFU telling the provinces to curtail timing of players but in this instance it may help. Of course they need to play especially with the Champions Cup but get them fit and healthy

Don't know if he has much of a choice in the matter, my (uneducated) reading is that the IRFU want centrally contracted players on the pitch as much as possible.

joseywhales

TimHorton wrote: »

FFS Ireland Caps should be deserved not handed out , Complete Joke to bring him on.

Wait what, carty is in good form, he deserved a call up

mangobob

joseywhales wrote: »

Wait what, carty is in good form, he deserved a call up

I dont think thats in dispute. Its just that getting a cap for a 3 minute cameo seems to devalue the whole notion of international caps.

For me, I would have preferred to see him on much earlier, perhaps around the 60 minute mark or so, to give him a chance to impact the game. 3 minutes is totally inadequate and a bit pointless.

I guess Joe thought it was more important for Johnny to get more minutes under his belt. Either that or he felt the game was in the balance so continuity was important. But we all saw the difference Cooney made when he came on, so I thought it was a missed opportunity personally.

TimHorton

joseywhales wrote: »

Wait what, carty is in good form, he deserved a call up

Good Form with a 3rd Rate Team , Madigan should have been on the bench today , He earns 5 times what Carty does because he is a better player ,

martingriff

TimHorton wrote: »

FFS Ireland Caps should be deserved not handed out , Complete Joke to bring him on.

I agree I think he should have been on long especially as it was evident Sexton was unfit. Hell I would have started him and maybe if Carberry had been fit they could have had him starting and Carberry on the bench. Blame the coaching staff not Carty on why they waited

martingriff

realhorrorshow wrote: »

Don't know if he has much of a choice in the matter, my (uneducated) reading is that the IRFU want centrally contracted players on the pitch as much as possible.

Actually I think in World Cup time and coming up to the 6 nations they get them to cut there time down

martingriff

TimHorton wrote: »

Good Form with a 3rd Rate Team , Madigan should have been on the bench today , He earns 5 times what Carty does because he is a better player ,

Earning more does not mean you are better. Also in relation to a 3rd Rate Team Connaught are doing phenomenally well this year so that comment is unjust

TimHorton

martingriff wrote: »

Earning more does not mean you are better. Also in relation to a 3rd Rate Team Connaught are doing phenomenally well this year so that comment is unjust

So you think Carty is a better player than Madigan ?

Clegg

TimHorton wrote: »

martingriff wrote: »

Earning more does not mean you are better. Also in relation to a 3rd Rate Team Connaught are doing phenomenally well this year so that comment is unjust

So you think Carty is a better player than Madigan ?

At this stage he probably is.

joseywhales

TimHorton wrote: »

Good Form with a 3rd Rate Team , Madigan should have been on the bench today , He earns 5 times what Carty does because he is a better player ,

Ah so salary is the metric to indicate a players ability?
Why doesn't Dan Carter start for the all blacks anymore?

Bundee aki starts at 12 for Ireland in every game that he is fit and played in every game in Ireland's grand slam but he does play for the same club as carty so perhaps his selection is wrong.

It must be Schmidt's bias for connacht players.

Connacht are in the knockouts of the challenge cup the same as Bristol but that must be luck I guess, the same way as it is luck that they beat sale(4 places ahead of Bristol in the premiership)

I am not a connacht fan but to call them 3rd rate is factually incorrect.

I don't even know if madigan is the best 10 at Bristol anymore!

Akrasia

There are only 6 International games left before the RWC

The last 2 6 Nations games, and then we play Italy, England and Wales (twice) in August and September.

Schmidt needs to do two mutually exclusive things.
1. Bring the squad up to speed - give game time to squad players who will be essential back-up during the RWC

2. Develop cohesion and get the first choice players experience and game time together in their best positions.