Italy vs Ireland match thread, 24-2-2019.

troyzer

joseywhales wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

It's all on Murray, completely fair steal.

People are just surprised it was a 9 melting the ruck but there was no ruck. He came straight through the gate and nobody was in the way.

Murray throwing his hands up is unforgivable. I'd have hooked him then and there.

There had to have been a ruck at least, ever since they changed the definition of a ruck due to the England Italy game, you don't even need an opposing player to ruck against for it to be a ruck.

I'll watch it again, I remember it being very sparse.

There was a ruck but it was badly set up which meant you could walk straight through it. You're allowed to tackle the 9 with the ball once you go through the gate. That's literally what rucking is.

FrancieBrady

troyzer wrote: »

There was a ruck but it was badly set up which meant you could walk straight through it. You're allowed to tackle the 9 with the ball once you go through the gate. That's literally what rucking is.

Murray should have assessed the cover and got rid far quicker. He'd still be standing thinking if yer man hadn't come through. They have to sort him out soon.

joseywhales

troyzer wrote: »

There was a ruck but it was badly set up which meant you could walk straight through it. You're allowed to tackle the 9 with the ball once you go through the gate. That's literally what rucking is.

I think once the ruck is over you are allowed to tackle the nine if you start from behind the hindmost foot.

Rucking would be stepping over the ball, not using your hands

Water John

Not sure its the one ye are talking about but I think it was the case that Murray's hand was pulled dislodging the ball, so it was neither a steal or a tackle.
His hand was slapped down.

Hurrache

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don’t know if 100% true but It was on another forum the ref was in Super rugby last week and had a stinker, a NZ fan was laughing that his punishment was to ref a 6 nations match

POM was all over the Italians in the lineout, the one in which he stole the Italian's when they were in our 22 and got great praise for leading from the front from TV3's commentators he would have been penalised every other time.

Akrasia

Clegg wrote: »

Almost done in what respect?

Current world player of the year is all washed up

Brewster

troyzer wrote: »

Well then the ARs are blind.

In any given game there are dozens of instances of blatant offside that are never called. If it's in the interests of "the flow of the game" then it's bollocks. Defenses have enough advantages as it is without being able to tackle the carrier a split second after they get the ball by cheating.

At times it does look like this, simply pointing out that they are involved in policing the offside line, but perhaps not often enough....

sydthebeat

Water John wrote: »

It's the linesman's role IWT. The guy next to the ruck on each side stay clearly on side and the outside players flat or behind him. Sorry for the derail but feel it's stifling the game.

The problem is the new law variations.

If the attacking team can put one man over the ruck to form the offside line, then where is the off side line for the defense?
Technically, it's the hind foot of the attacker.... If no defender rucked. Thus it appears as though the defending team are all up off side going by the location of the tackler.

The new variations are a mess in my opinion. Not being able to use you hands when there's no one standing at a ruck is stupid, cos you can't touch the nine either

SKILFUL

All creddt to conor o shea

The Lost Sheep

Water John wrote: »

Am I wrong in thinking most defence lines at the ruck are offside and thus closing the gap, which makes the line difficult to break? They are not behind the hindmost foot.

Wouldnt say most.

troyzer wrote: »

Yeah. Offside lately is so badly enforced.

I think World Rugby need to start looking at ARs being given the right to blow up when they see offside. The ref simply has too much to keep their eye on at once. How can they realistically officiate a mess at the breakdown and also watch what's going on in the defensive line at the same time? They're bound to miss something.

Blow up how? Theyre on the mic to ref all the time. The ARs are always chatting to ref and talking about trends/infringements.

troyzer wrote: »

Well then the ARs are blind.

In any given game there are dozens of instances of blatant offside that are never called. If it's in the interests of "the flow of the game" then it's bollocks. Defenses have enough advantages as it is without being able to tackle the carrier a split second after they get the ball by cheating.

If it isnt material/directly relevant then why penalise?

Hands Like Flippers

sydthebeat wrote: »

The problem is the new law variations.

If the attacking team can put one man over the ruck to form the offside line, then where is the off side line for the defense?
Technically, it's the hind foot of the attacker.... If no defender rucked. Thus it appears as though the defending team are all up off side going by the location of the tackler.

The new variations are a mess in my opinion. Not being able to use you hands when there's no one standing at a ruck is stupid, cos you can't touch the nine either

I'm not sure if you are on about the same thing but for some reason nowadays a lot of defenders are told by the ref not to step through a ruck even if they could easily do so. The attacking 9 therefore is under no pressure. If the attacking team can't be bothered to service a ruck properly then the defenders should be able to counter ruck through the gate. They can then go for the ball if they stay on their feet or hit the 9 if he has picked it up.

Far too many rucks are too slow now with scrum halves turning the ball upside down and dribbling it back etc. Almost as tedious to watch as many scrums now.

There was a classic years ago where the Munster 9 was told to use it and didn't bother and the two Munster forwards in the ruck were vertical with their backs turned (probably wondering why their 9 was taking too long) and big Nick Williams smashed the ruck, knocked the forwards over and the ref gave Ulster the scrum. There are far too many conferences at the back of rucks. The use it or lose it rule should be pressed more. Would lead to much less of this awful box kicking (see start of Eng Wales game) .

lawred2

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Rewatch, there was feck all depth in the ruck. Barely a ruck.
Murray should have been more aware

Regardless he'd picked the ball up. He was fair game.

Losty Dublin

Akrasia wrote: »

It could be the thrower not knowing his calls

It's unlikely. Cronin was finisher for the last two games and at training camps all month so he well knows the calls. Mind you, so too should most of the pack.

FrancieBrady

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It's unlikely. Cronin was finisher for the last two games and at training camps all month so he well knows the calls. Mind you, so too should most of the pack.

How long is Toner out for?

Brewster

Best, Hendo and Ryan will finish the tournament. Lineout should be fine.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote: »

Current world player of the year is all washed up

I feel that Sexton was world player of the year due to basically winning everything (and deservedly so). I don't know that it was his best ever season from an individual performance point of view.

That said, I don't watch all of his matches, nor have I ever looked at his stats comparing year-on-year.

Joma4good

I think we’re being far too harsh on sexton and Murray(2 tries in last 2 games) there both below there recent best but our game plan of multiple phase crash running forwards breaking the defensive line is well known by all our opposition. When teams physically counter that tactic it’s hard to blame it all at the halves performance, when we’re knocking teams back we’re fine and can get good penetration especially with a change of direction from earls for the try or someone like ringrose, but once we’re static as an attacking unit Murray is copping flack for not bringing runners on to the ball fast enough I’d say that isn’t a single player issue. We look a bit sluggish in our carries, poss because we know we’re trucking it straight into traffic again and again, eventually we get some success with it but it must be a fatiguing task, both for the carrier and the scrum half having to reset from every ruck.
We’re quick to forget how some of the calls for established players to be dropped has worked out. Dropping quality players for the new option at this point would have a very unsettling effect on the team. If let’s say JS were to give both Murray and Sexton only the first half against France (or dropped according to some) and bring on Carbery and Cooney for the second half and they’re performances weren’t great where do we go from there? Keep calm, we’ve had a fair bit of injury disruption this year, don’t think it’s going to do anyone any good to jump on the Murray out and Sextons nearly finished bandwagon.

Losty Dublin

TimHorton wrote: »

10 is a problem, Carty gets 2 mins and knocks on , Where do go when Sexton/Carberry are out - Is Byrne the answer ??

Getting a little ahead here but it could well be with a little bad luck afoot, yeah. A few years ago there was Madigan, Jackson, JJ Hanrahan and Keatley to look to as well. Of these Jackson and Madigan went from being jokes to serious long term options at Fly Half. All four are now out of contention for recalls barring a serious disaster and change of heart all round.

Ross Byrne is an excellent prospect as is Carberry but they are not ready yet. Carty is good but he too needs a lot of work to get him there. It takes but one or more to be injured and sudden there's problems afoot. And before you say that no it will never happen that you'll lose 3 Fly Half's then go ask Stephen Donald.

Did Conway do anything

Losty Dublin

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How long is Toner out for?

It's until about April. At best he'll make the H Cup semi final or the last few Pro 14 group games.

joseywhales

lawred2 wrote: »

Regardless he'd picked the ball up. He was fair game.

I don't think it's that simple, you would catch most scrum halves at the back of a ruck with the ball before they pass if you leap for them,or smash and grab an arm when the timing is right, I don't think that is allowed, I have seen a lot of penalties for "playing the nine".

He can't have been part of the ruck or offside.

Dubinusa

Joma4good wrote: »

I think we’re being far too harsh on sexton and Murray(2 tries in last 2 games) there both below there recent best but our game plan of multiple phase crash running forwards breaking the defensive line is well known by all our opposition. When teams physically counter that tactic it’s hard to blame it all at the halves performance, when we’re knocking teams back we’re fine and can get good penetration especially with a change of direction from earls for the try or someone like ringrose, but once we’re static as an attacking unit Murray is copping flack for not bringing runners on to the ball fast enough I’d say that isn’t a single player issue. We look a bit sluggish in our carries, poss because we know we’re trucking it straight into traffic again and again, eventually we get some success with it but it must be a fatiguing task, both for the carrier and the scrum half having to reset from every ruck.
We’re quick to forget how some of the calls for established players to be dropped has worked out. Dropping quality players for the new option at this point would have a very unsettling effect on the team. If let’s say JS were to give both Murray and Sexton only the first half against France (or dropped according to some) and bring on Carbery and Cooney for the second half and they’re performances weren’t great where do we go from there? Keep calm, we’ve had a fair bit of injury disruption this year, don’t think it’s going to do anyone any good to jump on the Murray out and Sextons nearly finished bandwagon.

Murray has been : laboured, ponderous and slow. He's been awful.
There should be no excuses. Sexton also has been very mediocre.
A change might light a fire under them.
Worst case scenario: we are embroiled in a slugfest with the Boks in the rwc qf and Murray is awful. J.S leaves him in?
Think it's time to give another lad a chance, at least til Murray gets it together.
I wonder how many of us thought the repercussions of the Jackson trial?
I know I didn't. I have also never wished Murray to be subbed, ever, until these past 3 matches.

Ardillaun

Give the strength of the opposition, that must rank as our worst performance in this 6N. Murray looked less animated than usual, not that he’s a massively demonstrative lad at the the best of times, sort of flat, and his play has not been great. SOB also did not have a big impact on the game. Rugby has become a process of constant reincarnation after injury and one never knows if players will be quite as good when they return. Let’s hope those two improve. Cronin was bad at lineout time but Scannell wasn’t great either. Apart from POM, the jumpers didn’t seem to be on the same wavelength as the hookers. We miss Toner.

Burkie1203

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Did Conway do anything

Not really.

We could barely get the ball from 9 to 10 tho. We did manage to get the ball to the 13 channel a few times to put Earls away with one lovely move.

lawred2

lawred2 wrote: »

Regardless he'd picked the ball up. He was fair game.

Yeah but shallow ruck allowed for legal closing down

Burkie1203

Joma4good wrote: »

I think we’re being far too harsh on sexton and Murray(2 tries in last 2 games) there both below there recent best but our game plan of multiple phase crash running forwards breaking the defensive line is well known by all our opposition. When teams physically counter that tactic it’s hard to blame it all at the halves performance, when we’re knocking teams back we’re fine and can get good penetration especially with a change of direction from earls for the try or someone like ringrose, but once we’re static as an attacking unit Murray is copping flack for not bringing runners on to the ball fast enough I’d say that isn’t a single player issue. We look a bit sluggish in our carries, poss because we know we’re trucking it straight into traffic again and again, eventually we get some success with it but it must be a fatiguing task, both for the carrier and the scrum half having to reset from every ruck.
We’re quick to forget how some of the calls for established players to be dropped has worked out. Dropping quality players for the new option at this point would have a very unsettling effect on the team. If let’s say JS were to give both Murray and Sexton only the first half against France (or dropped according to some) and bring on Carbery and Cooney for the second half and they’re performances weren’t great where do we go from there? Keep calm, we’ve had a fair bit of injury disruption this year, don’t think it’s going to do anyone any good to jump on the Murray out and Sextons nearly finished bandwagon.

Murray's basics are all over the place. Something clearly not right and his attitude when he got mugged by Tebaldi spoke volumes. Yes he scored two tries but that means nothing really. Your 9 is a pivotal position and if your 9 is all over the shop it impacts everything. Cooney has come on very late a few times and made a noticeable difference. We did play without Murray in November too.

The lack of leadership on the field yesterday from the two VCs in Bests absence was also noticeable.

A very large kick up the hole dropping might light a fire under 3 or 4 others

troyzer

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Murray's basics are all over the place. Something clearly not right and his attitude when he got mugged by Tebaldi spoke volumes. Yes he scored two tries but that means nothing really. Your 9 is a pivotal position and if your 9 is all over the shop it impacts everything. Cooney has come on very late a few times and made a noticeable difference. We did play without Murray in November too.

The lack of leadership on the field yesterday from the two VCs in Bests absence was also noticeable.

A very large kick up the hole dropping might light a fire under 3 or 4 others

I would be absolutely astonished if Schmidt doesn't drop Murray at least from the starting XV. He is not improving. This isn't about playing himself into form after a long term injury. He has 645 minutes so far this season which isn't much less than someone like Jamison Gibson Park at 800 who isn't playing test rugby.

It's becoming obvious to me now that he was probably fit and healthy to go for most of November but he was utterly ****e in training and Joe sat him down hoping for an improvement by the Six Nations.

It's not right, if you're playing really badly three games in a row then you have to be dropped. It's only fair on the other scrumhalves and it's the toe up the hole that Murray needs. What's the point letting him be **** out there and further lose confidence? His goal should be to light the place up in the Pro14 and aim to be excellent against Edinburgh in a month.

Christy42

I don't think Cooney was any better coming on. I could see an argument for Marmion depending on how he comes back from injury.

We naturally play slowly for most of the game anyway. Murray tends to pick and choose when to inject pace, generally after a few phases which was a rare scenario yesterday.

I am curious about the lack of box kicking. Why not kick if you can't hold onto the ball anyway? The steals were also terrible play from Murray.

Far closer to the core of the issue was Sexton who really struggled to get Italians out of position and with a lot of his basics, restarts especially.

troyzer

Christy42 wrote: »

I don't think Cooney was any better coming on. I could see an argument for Marmion depending on how he comes back from injury.

We naturally play slowly for most of the game anyway. Murray tends to pick and choose when to inject pace, generally after a few phases which was a rare scenario yesterday.

I am curious about the lack of box kicking. Why not kick if you can't hold onto the ball anyway? The steals were also terrible play from Murray.

Far closer to the core of the issue was Sexton who really struggled to get Italians out of position and with a lot of his basics, restarts especially.

The lack of box kicking was clearly planned from the get go.

FrancieBrady

Christy42 wrote: »

I don't think Cooney was any better coming on. I could see an argument for Marmion depending on how he comes back from injury.

We naturally play slowly for most of the game anyway. Murray tends to pick and choose when to inject pace, generally after a few phases which was a rare scenario yesterday.

I am curious about the lack of box kicking. Why not kick if you can't hold onto the ball anyway? The steals were also terrible play from Murray.

Far closer to the core of the issue was Sexton who really struggled to get Italians out of position and with a lot of his basics, restarts especially.

Cooney was at least quicker getting it away and he was looking around him for options and marshaling.
Murray has the look of a robot on a low battery at the minute.

reg114

Joe Schmidt's Ireland has always been a slow starter in tournaments and been prone to dramatic slumps at inopportune times, such as the pre-worldcup games and the defeat to Argentina. Yes we are still capable of beating anyone in a one off game but we still fall short when it comes to consistency especially when missing some players. Devin Toners loss from the lineout has been huge. Bests absence yesterday again from the lineout was massive. How Sean Cronin has managed to amass so many caps for Leinster and Ireland and still not manage to throw a dart accurately is a mystery to me, he was personally responsible for one of the Italian tries yesterday. Roux is not international standard and this will be unpopular but neither is Sean O Brien anymore. His career has been too blighted by injury in recent years and his ferocity of old has gone. He was anonymous yesterday. Kearney again had a below par performance. In fact if you wanted an example of a quality full back performance the welsh number 15 gave a scintillating display the previous day. Kearney's one strength is under the high ball, if you take that away from his game, hes a very average full back in my opinion, he lacks any ability to pass the ball and possesses an uncanny instinct when it comes to running up blind alleys with no support.

The italians looked exciting with the ball in hand, something we rarely do. The speed with which they whipped the ball out wide, the offloading and the lines of attack were a joy to behold. Irish invention in attack is positively muted by comparison. Jacob Stockdale seems to be the only player we have who consistently looks to create something out of nothing. He possesses a hunger and an instinct to attack the line, very few other irish players offer similar.

Did Sexton need to play yesterday ? I dont think so. Same could be said of Murray, both men look bereft of ideas and quite frankly rudderless. Ringrose , Henshaw, Ryan, Toner, Best, Stander were all missed but surely their replacements must be able to measure up in a squad game.

We had a great 12 months last year, but for a team to remain on top it has to find the hunger and intensity every time it takes to the pitch. You cant just rely on processes , you have to want to win more than the opposition and this simply has not been the case. England wanted to win more than us after finishing 5th last season. They had the desire, we did not and we havent found that desire again. This desire to win every time is the one attribute that has always impressed me about the All Blacks, its just in their DNA. Ireland seem to need to have a gun held to their heads to find the motivation sometimes, quite why this is the case is beyond me.

We have two opportunities to get back on track in this tournament against France at home and away to Wales. If we can manage to play those games with the same intensity and desire that brought that victory over the All Blacks then this tournament wont have been a complete failure.

The world cup is still 6 months away so i would rather a slump now than then.

FrancieBrady

reg114 wrote: »

Joe Schmidt's Ireland has always been a slow starter in tournaments and been prone to dramatic slumps at inopportune times, such as the pre-worldcup games and the defeat to Argentina. Yes we are still capable of beating anyone in a one off game but we still fall short when it comes to consistency especially when missing some players. Devin Toners loss from the lineout has been huge. Bests absence yesterday again from the lineout was massive. How Sean Cronin has managed to amass so many caps for Leinster and Ireland and still not manage to throw a dart accurately is a mystery to me, he was personally responsible for one of the Italian tries yesterday. Roux is not international standard and this will be unpopular but neither is Sean O Brien anymore. His career has been too blighted by injury in recent years and his ferocity of old has gone. He was anonymous yesterday. Kearney again had a below par performance. In fact if you wanted an example of a quality full back performance the welsh number 15 gave a scintillating display the previous day. Kearney's one strength is under the high ball, if you take that away from his game, hes a very average full back in my opinion, he lacks any ability to pass the ball and possesses an uncanny instinct when it comes to running up blind alleys with no support.

The italians looked exciting with the ball in hand, something we rarely do. The speed with which they whipped the ball out wide, the offloading and the lines of attack were a joy to behold. Irish invention in attack is positively muted by comparison. Jacob Stockdale seems to be the only player we have who consistently looks to create something out of nothing. He possesses a hunger and an instinct to attack the line, very few other irish players offer similar.

Did Sexton need to play yesterday ? I dont think so. Same could be said of Murray, both men look bereft of ideas and quite frankly rudderless. Ringrose , Henshaw, Ryan, Toner, Best, Stander were all missed but surely their replacements must be able to measure up in a squad game.

We had a great 12 months last year, but for a team to remain on top it has to find the hunger and intensity every time it takes to the pitch. You cant just rely on processes , you have to want to win more than the opposition and this simply has not been the case. England wanted to win more than us after finishing 5th last season. They had the desire, we did not and we havent found that desire again. This desire to win every time is the one attribute that has always impressed me about the All Blacks, its just in their DNA. Ireland seem to need to have a gun held to their heads to find the motivation sometimes, quite why this is the case is beyond me.

We have two opportunities to get back on track in this tournament against France at home and away to Wales. If we can manage to play those games with the same intensity and desire that brought that victory over the All Blacks then this tournament wont have been a complete failure.

The world cup is still 6 months away so i would rather a slump now than then.

I think it may be a case of aiming beyond the target with this team. There is a sense that they are not focused on this 6 Nations but something beyond.
May or may not be a good thing.

Italy causing all kinds of problems at home against Wales and then suggests to me that they are more competitive this tournament. Benetton hammering Dragons on the same weekend also indicative of the direction things are going. They really are waiting in the tall grass for France at this stage.

Their line speed and accuracy at the breakdown in combination with our increasingly predictable play ground the game to a halt. It was a great day to be an Italian forward, the quality of Irish passing was poor, we were playing flat against the line but with zero inventiveness and Italy were lining us up all day and winning collisions. It fed into their energy levels all game and kept the crowd as a factor.

Sexton really needed to vary it up but couldn't take control of the game and was very one dimensional for his standards. Part of it was down to continual poor quality ball from Murray who was far too slow getting the ball away from the breakdown, inviting further disruption from Italy. I couldn't believe Murray didn't adapt to the ref nor acknowledge the pressure Italy were applying at the ruck and it really cost us.

Still, we had plenty of big carriers available to the first receiver and it kept Italy flat - but we never exploited the space this left elsewhere and effectively handed most of the dominant moments of the game to them.

Our disjointed midfield was problematic but our decision making off 9 and 10 were the foundation of that poor performance and much of the inaccuracy that came later. We've a few key men in poor form and it's sucking the life out of the squad. Joe seems keen to allow lads to play themselves back into confidence but in the meantime we are getting caught in dog fight after dog fight and the attrition is steadily depleting our playing numbers.

We really need to click against France because Wales will not give us any opportunity to find form and if we are as disjointed in Cardiff as we were in Rome we'll be humiliated 6 months out from the World cup.

Time for Joe to earn his crust and plot a course out of this rut. Much will come down to the players also but I think at this stage Joe will sacrifice results if he can get his key on field decision makers back on track.

stephen_n

TimHorton wrote: »

Good Form with a 3rd Rate Team , Madigan should have been on the bench today , He earns 5 times what Carty does because he is a better player ,

You mean the Madigan who is struggling to get his game at a team that are second from bottom of the premiership?

Former Former

reg114 wrote: »

Did Sexton need to play yesterday ? I dont think so. Same could be said of Murray, both men look bereft of ideas and quite frankly rudderless.

Yes.

No disrespect to either Carty or Cooney but there was far, far more value in giving Sexton and Murray more time on the pitch than playing either of the replacements.

If Carbery or Marmion had been available, maybe that would have been a different question.

Buer

stephen_n wrote: »

You mean the Madigan who is struggling to get his game at a team that are second from bottom of the premiership?

It's tiring when people repeatedly call on guys to be called up over and over again when they obviously haven't been actually watching them.

Madigan had a poor showing last weekend and was dropped for this week against Harlequins. Many Bristol fans have been calling for Callum Sheedy to be their first choice outhalf for the next few games.

On a completely different note, there's a guy who is Irish qualified and still only 23. He had a bit of undeserved hype around him when he first came on the scene but seems to have developed a bit to the point where he could be a viable signing for a province.

stephen_n

Buer wrote: »

It's tiring when people repeatedly call on guys to be called up over and over again when they obviously haven't been actually watching them.

Madigan had a poor showing last weekend and was dropped for this week against Harlequins. Many Bristol fans have been calling for Callum Sheedy to be their first choice outhalf for the next few games.

On a completely different note, there's a guy who is Irish qualified and still only 23. He had a bit of undeserved hype around him when he first came on the scene but seems to have developed a bit to the point where he could be a viable signing for a province.

Didn’t realize Sheedy was IQ, another outhalf for Munster maybe.

twinytwo

We have what.. 6? more games to sort this mess out.. after so long in charge and a WC around the corner I hope Joe has an ace up his sleeve that he is saving.

For all the talk of strength in depth we are still totally dependant on best, toner, sexton, murray and Kearney. One or more them ****s the bed or gets injured and wc goes down the drain.

twinytwo

twinytwo wrote: »

For all the talk of strength in depth we are still totally dependant on best, toner, sexton, murray and Kearney. One or more them ****s the bed or gets injured and wc goes down the drain.

To be fair 1 regular front row, missing 2nd rows, and was the "perfect" match to reassess SOB. So the entire pack was a mishmash.

9/10 were indeed not at all firing but couple the pack with a very match unaware Murray...
Aki went off early, and we have players not available in the backs also.

This was not a full strength team, no matter what some posters want to say.

Strength in depth does not mean that you can gut a team and expect it to function as well as ever. It means that you can lose one or two players (no matter the position) and still function to that level, we're down several.

is_that_so

Deleted User wrote: »

To be fair 1 regular front row, missing 2nd rows, and was the "perfect" match to reassess SOB. So the entire pack was a mishmash.

9/10 were indeed not at all firing but couple the pack with a very match unaware Murray...
Aki went off early, and we have players not available in the backs also.

This was not a full strength team, no matter what some posters want to say.

Strength in depth does not mean that you can gut a team and expect it to function as well as ever. It means that you can lose one or two players (no matter the position) and still function to that level, we're down several.

The fact is that some of these players were being given an opportunity to show they should be part of the 6N and the RWC. None of them took it. That can't all be blamed on 9/10 not firing, which is a huge concern.

is_that_so

is_that_so wrote: »

9/10 not firing is a huge concern. The fact is that some of these players were being given an opportunity to show they should be part of the 6N and the RWC. None of them did.

Mainly true but there is still no validity in saying that we do not have strength in depth. We do.

9 and 10 not firing. So we replace them with Carbs and Marm... Oh wait another pair injured. We are not in a position to make real corrective actions and still came away with a bonus point victory.
Lineout not working, sh1te we're already on our back up pair.
Centres not mashing, loads of injuries there.
No team can take that many hits and be expected to blow teams away.

We need some perspective. Yes there are causes for alarm, yes some players are not putting their hand up, yes we are looking predictable (just like the last WC to be fair), BUT let's not go mental with the criticism either.

sydthebeat

a couple of stats that i think are interesting from yesterday.....

we kicked 13 times..... compare that to 24 against scotland and 31 against england.
why did we refuse to kick the ball so much?
we played the majority of the game with 4 players who are able contesters in the air.... yet we didnt test their wings at all.
why didnt we try to turn their defensive line with more tactical kicking?

they made 14 clean breaks to our 5... it didnt help that our 9, 10, 12 and 13 missed 9 tackles between them.....

their locks made 40 meters for 16 runs, ours made 16 meters from 15 runs.

italy though to their credit have certainly showed some improvement in this competition......
They have lost by less than 2 converted in each of their 3 games so far... for a points total of -34
compared to last year when at this stage they were -85

Henry Ford III

reg114 wrote: »

Joe Schmidt's Ireland has always been a slow starter in tournaments.....

Apart from the Grand Slam year obviously.

stephen_n

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Apart from the Grand Slam year obviously.

Well in fairness, Paris!

Pudsy33

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Apart from the Grand Slam year obviously.

Arguably we were slow out of the blocks last year too.

kuang1

SOB was the biggest disappointment for me yesterday. An error strewn display. Really cringe stuff some of it, dropped balls, bad passes, missed tackles. I feel for the guy. He's dropped himself down the pecking order significantly now imo.

I can't help but wonder if the Munster Leinster game in Thomond has damaged some of the relationships within the squad.
Sexton and Murray ****ing each other out of it during the England game, Sexton's public display of frustration yesterday, (although I assumed it was the referee at the time he was expressing annoyance about, I'm not sure now.) a 9/10 axis that's not clicking. Can it be all explained away by Murray's body not being back to full tilt yet?

All conjecture on my part of course.

troyzer

kuang1 wrote: »

SOB was the biggest disappointment for me yesterday. An error strewn display. Really cringe stuff some of it, dropped balls, bad passes, missed tackles. I feel for the guy. He's dropped himself down the pecking order significantly now imo.

I can't help but wonder if the Munster Leinster game in Thomond has damaged some of the relationships within the squad.
Sexton and Murray ****ing each other out of it during the England game, Sexton's public display of frustration yesterday, (although I assumed it was the referee at the time he was expressing annoyance about, I'm not sure now.) a 9/10 axis that's not clicking. Can it be all explained away by Murray's body not being back to full tilt yet?

All conjecture on my part of course.

To be honest, I thought a few Leinster players were off the boil when they came back after the All Blacks. The Bath away game was really poor and while they slotted them away at home, there were still hairy moments.

They weren't great in the interpros over Christmas either.

Henry Ford III

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Arguably we were slow out of the blocks last year too.

Hardly matters as we won all the matches - a grand slam.

troyzer

troyzer wrote: »

To be honest, I thought a few Leinster players were off the boil when they came back after the All Blacks. The Bath away game was really poor and while they slotted them away at home, there were still hairy moments.

They weren't great in the interpros over Christmas either.

I think at worst there might be a bunch of lads there who having won most of everything there was to win last season are now minding themselves a bit for the World Cup.

I can't envisage it being anything too much more dramatic than that. Last year Leinster borderline embarrassed Munster in Thomond, if there wasn't bad blood after that I can't see why there would have been a big falling out this season.

People are just playing poorly.

troyzer

Deleted User wrote: »

I think at worst there might be a bunch of lads there who having won most of everything there was to win last season are now minding themselves a bit for the World Cup.

I can't envisage it being anything too much more dramatic than that. Last year Leinster borderline embarrassed Munster in Thomond, if there wasn't bad blood after that I can't see why there would have been a big falling out this season.

People are just playing poorly.

I agree, I don't think there's any bad blood. I'm just saying that I think there's been worrying signs of poor form for a while now.