Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

GT89

bk wrote: »

The NTA has a tender out for 200 EV single decker buses. The tender closed, but haven't heard anything since, if anyone has won the contract, etc.

I'd assume these ADL Enviro200EV will be a very strong runner for this contract.

I wonder what length they'll go for. These buses look like the shorter wheelbase version. I'd imagine the O route will need longest wheelbase available whereas other routes will need shorter wheelbase buses due to tight turns for example the 59 which couldn't handle the Streetlites. So perhaps a mix of different lengths will be bought.

bk

GT89 wrote: »

I wonder what length they'll go for. These buses look like the shorter wheelbase version. I'd imagine the O route will need longest wheelbase available whereas other routes will need shorter wheelbase buses due to tight turns for example the 59 which couldn't handle the Streetlites. So perhaps a mix of different lengths will be bought.

When I looked at this tender, it was for long wheelbase buses. Keep in mind most of these buses will end up in Cork, etc. with BE which use long wheel base busses.

bk

bk wrote: »

When I looked at this tender, it was for long wheelbase buses. Keep in mind most of these buses will end up in Cork, etc. with BE which use long wheel base busses.

So here is the tender, it doesn't specify length in the public info, but the title of the tender is, notice the "Long Length"
Single Supplier Framework Agreement for the Purchase of Single Deck Long Length Electric Buses:
https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/167175/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

I think BE has just under 100 single deckers and most of them are long length, the VWL I think are 12 meters for instance.

GoAhead has 40 streetlites, I'm not sure of their length, but they look a bit shorter then the cork ones, maybe closer to 10m.

CityDirect has single deckers, I don't know how many. But I think they are all long length too.

Dublin bus have just the 2 single deckers and they are midi's, I assume they aren't part of the tender. Probably will be done in a future small tender if needing replacing. They are relatively new anyway, 2017.

So we probably have about 150 to 160 buses across BE/GA/CityDirect. So I'd guess the extra buses would be for the O route.

Looking at the Enviro200EV, they are available in these lengths 9.6m, 10.2m, 10.9m or 11.6m

They could possibly order the 11.6m for the likes of Cork and a shorter length for GAI if that is what they need.

GT89

bk wrote: »

So here is the tender, it doesn't specify length in the public info, but the title of the tender is, notice the "Long Length"
Single Supplier Framework Agreement for the Purchase of Single Deck Long Length Electric Buses:
https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/167175/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

I think BE has just under 100 single deckers and most of them are long length, the VWL I think are 12 meters for instance.

GoAhead has 40 streetlites, I'm not sure of their length, but they look a bit shorter then the cork ones, maybe closer to 10m.

CityDirect has single deckers, I don't know how many. But I think they are all long length too.

Dublin bus have just the 2 single deckers and they are midi's, I assume they aren't part of the tender. Probably will be done in a future small tender if needing replacing. They are relatively new anyway, 2017.

So we probably have about 150 to 160 buses across BE/GA/CityDirect. So I'd guess the extra buses would be for the O route.

Looking at the Enviro200EV, they are available in these lengths 9.6m, 10.2m, 10.9m or 11.6m

They could possibly order the 11.6m for the likes of Cork and a shorter length for GAI if that is what they need.

The Go-Ahead Streetlites are 11.6m. These are also in use for BE in Waterford. The DB ones would be the shorter wheelbase I think they are 10.2m BE also have these in use in Waterford, Athlone, Drogheda, Dundalk, Sligo, Balbriggan and City Direct in Kilkenny.

City Direct in Galway aren't PSO and their buses are mostly secondhand ex London buses it appears. So I'm guessing from you are suggesting that the Streetlites with BE and GAI will be replaced and withdrawn prematurely.

Peregrine

Yes, the GAI Streetlites are the Max version. DB Streetlites are considerably shorter. I think they're under 10m.

bk

GT89 wrote: »

The Go-Ahead Streetlites are 11.6m. These are also in use for BE in Waterford. The DB ones would be the shorter wheelbase I think they are 10.2m BE also have these in use in Waterford, Athlone, Drogheda, Dundalk, Sligo, Balbriggan and City Direct in Kilkenny.

Ah, cool, some reason I always felt like the streetlites looked a bit shorter then the other models in Cork! If they go with the Enviro200EV so, I assume most if not all will likewise be 11.6m so.

GT89 wrote: »

City Direct in Galway aren't PSO and their buses are mostly secondhand ex London buses it appears. So I'm guessing from you are suggesting that the Streetlites with BE and GAI will be replaced and withdrawn prematurely.

City Direct operate two PSO routes in Kilkenny and that is what I was talking about. I just don't know how many buses they have there. They are actually mentioned in the tender along with BE, DB and GAI.

Peregrine

The OPW are also tendering for 8 electric single deckers. Mostly for use at Brú na Bóinne.

< 9.3m in length
29-31 seats
Minimum 160km range

Sam Russell

Do these hydrogen powered buses use hydrogen as a gas in an ICE or do they use it in a fuel cell?

I assume they would need a supply of oxygen to use it in a fuel cell.

L1011

Fuel cell. Use atmospheric oxygen I believe.

Hydrogen combustion engines exist but are not practical

bk

Sam Russell wrote: »

Do these hydrogen powered buses use hydrogen as a gas in an ICE or do they use it in a fuel cell?

I assume they would need a supply of oxygen to use it in a fuel cell.

The one's being trialled by BE at the moment? They are Hydrogen Fuel Cells and they get the oxygen from outside air.

Hydrogen internal combustion engine vehicle's, including buses, where you just burn the hydrogen in an ICE engine, have existed for many years, but they aren't zero emission vehicles, they release PM and NOX, so non runners for future use.

Peregrine wrote: »

The OPW are also tendering for 8 electric single deckers. Mostly for use at Brú na Bóinne.

Brilliant, makes a lot of sense for this location, UNESCO site and all that. Which BTW is well worth a visit for anyone who has never been.

Peregrine

Yeah, the fuel cell just uses an air intake. Storing oxygen complicates it a lot.

ax586

PA1 and PA5 are out on driver training today
Broadstone PA 1-20
Harristown PA 21-41
Phibsboro PA 42-57
Summerhill PA 58-74

punisher5112

See Donnybrook won't be getting any any time soon, pity, can't give any feedback

ax586

punisher5112 wrote: »

See Donnybrook won't be getting any any time soon, pity, can't give any feedback

Next batch I say

GT89

punisher5112 wrote: »

See Donnybrook won't be getting any any time soon, pity, can't give any feedback

I thought the 15 was getting them?

ax586

GT89 wrote: »

I thought the 15 was getting them?

The 4,122,123,140 is what they be on.

GT89

ax586 wrote: »

The 4,122,123,140 is what they be on.

I wonder will they stray on to other routes at times especially at weekends. Also we'll probably see SGs and GTs on those routes cascade onto other routes.

The 4 is becoming the new 46a always seems to get the new buses first lately.

Hotblack Desiato

ax586 wrote: »

The 4,122,123,140 is what they be on.

Jays, how do they fit that route number onto the display :pac:

ITV2

PA1 the first on 74 ADL Enviro 400ER Hybrid Buses for Dublin Bus in the new Transport for Ireland Livery is seen on driver training for Broadstone Garage staff, the route 140 will go over to this type on April 12th, PA1-20 will be allocated to Broadstone Garage, PA21-41 Harristown, PA42-58 Phibsboro and PA59-74 Summerhill.

bk

ITV2 wrote: »

PA1 the first on 74 ADL Enviro 400ER Hybrid Buses for Dublin Bus in the new Transport for Ireland Livery is seen on driver training for Broadstone Garage staff, the route 140 will go over to this type on April 12th, PA1-20 will be allocated to Broadstone Garage, PA21-41 Harristown, PA42-58 Phibsboro and PA59-74 Summerhill.

Lovely picture, the yellow and green of the new livery is nicely contrasted with the daffodils

Looks well, both the new livery and and the bus.

dublinman1990

Has anyone seen this Chinese built Higer bus in Dublin recently.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/darren_hall/51049926126/

bk

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Has anyone seen this Chinese built Higer bus in Dublin recently.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/darren_hall/51049926126/

Interesting, looks like being trialled for the NTA tender.

They have an Irish website, so they most be relatively serious about targeting the Irish market: https://higer.ie/

The Steed EV bus they have on the website is too short and has a too small battery for the NTA tender, but your picture above looks to be a different model, so this most be working on a longer model.

Peregrine

bk wrote: »

Interesting, looks like being trialled for the NTA tender.

They have an Irish website, so they most be relatively serious about targeting the Irish market: https://higer.ie/

The Steed EV bus they have on the website is too short and has a too small battery for the NTA tender, but your picture above looks to be a different model, so this most be working on a longer model.

It's also door forward unlike any pictures of the Steed EV that I could find. It's not a requirement in the tender but it kind of is.

You'd imagine they'll apply for the OPW tender with the Steed EV. They've already supplied three to NPWS for national park shuttles and it seems to fit the requirements.
https://fleet.ie/higer-steed-to-service-glenveagh-national-park-in-donegal/

ax586

bk wrote: »

Interesting, looks like being trialled for the NTA tender.

They have an Irish website, so they most be relatively serious about targeting the Irish market: https://higer.ie/

The Steed EV bus they have on the website is too short and has a too small battery for the NTA tender, but your picture above looks to be a different model, so this most be working on a longer model.

Their agent is hino on the naas road.

devnull

Here's a full electric in service for Local Link:
https://twitter.com/LaoisOffaly/status/1375567760437182465
Won't win any beautiful design awards, that is for sure.

Ugly front exterior and odd looking front due to being wheel forward.

dowlingm

One of the challenges Toronto has had with its current buy to test situation is that different manufacturers specify different chargers - I believe BYD has an AC system while Proterra and New Flyer use DC. Has NTA or EU defined a single charging system for buses, or are they keeping their options open for now even if that complicates the initial years of the rollout?

bk

dowlingm wrote: »

One of the challenges Toronto has had with its current buy to test situation is that different manufacturers specify different chargers - I believe BYD has an AC system while Proterra and New Flyer use DC. Has NTA or EU defined a single charging system for buses, or are they keeping their options open for now even if that complicates the initial years of the rollout?

They have specified CCS DC chargers in the tenders from what I remember.

The EU has standardised on CCS DC fast chargers for all new EV's in Europe, so we are pretty much avoiding the mess of incompatible chargers they have in the US * Even Tesla uses CCS chargers now in Europe the past few years and for their superchargers.

* Older cars like Nissan Leaf has Chademo and older Tesla's their own plug, but all new cars now have CCS.

BYD has moved to CCS in Europe for their EV buses. Strictly speaking they could still sell AC, but no one would be interested in buying it.

Such standardisation is definitely one thing the EU does right versus the mess you get in the US (yes I know, but it tends to spill over into Canada too).

Of course there is still room to mess up with the chargers chosen, different voltages supported, etc.

goingnowhere

Koln has used electric busses for several years and at the terminus there is an overhead unit and a pantograph style arm on the bus connects to it. As its two arms it looks to be DC, you can just about see it here

https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/kvb-cologne-to-convert-six-further-routes-to-electricity-53-vdl-e-buses-ordered/

Was a regular user of the 133 and the bus was way quicker off the line than anything Dublin Bus has

dowlingm

So as I have mentioned Toronto is working with three bus companies and bought quantities of each bus to try to find issues with them in a way manufacturer demos might not reveal. It was supposed to be 20/20/20 but BYD messed up so 10 of theirs were revoked and it became 10/25/25.

This week the Transit Commission’s public agenda has a long report on the evaluation to date. Might be interesting reading for those wondering how Irish buses should be procured and assessed for follow on orders.

Evaluation was on obvious items like reliability, warranty, spare part availability, and energy efficiency but also completeness of training, bus driver ease of use, battery yield over different temperatures, quality assessment of the build factories, issues affecting bus lifespan etc etc. The buses were benchmarked against the current main hybrid diesel bus supplier, Novabus.
https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2021/April_14/Reports/6_TTCs_Green_Bus_Program_Preliminary_Results_of_TTCs_Head_to.pdf

I mentioned above BYD’s AC charger - the report to indicate that it is actually better tech but they are now offering a DC option (same as the EU type I am assuming) as it is clearly a problem for customers like TTC who do not want to get locked into a single manufacturer.

Mentions of “hydro” in these reports don’t mean hydroelectricity; in Canada “hydro” is shorthand for electricity the way some in Ireland just say “the ESB”

bk

dowlingm wrote: »

Evaluation was on obvious items like reliability, warranty, spare part availability, and energy efficiency but also completeness of training, bus driver ease of use, battery yield over different temperatures, quality assessment of the build factories, issues affecting bus lifespan etc etc. The buses were benchmarked against the current main hybrid diesel bus supplier, Novabus.
https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2021/April_14/Reports/6_TTCs_Green_Bus_Program_Preliminary_Results_of_TTCs_Head_to.pdf

Very interesting read thanks. For me this is the main take away fro the report:

The lessons learned to date found no ‘show stoppers’ to the TTC’s progress toward full-fleet electrification.

While there were issues, non of them were show stoppers and they see no reason not continue switching their entire fleet to EV buses.

Given this trial was done in the harsh climate of Toronto, with lots of snow and ice, I think it bodes extremely well for EV buses in general and their use in the much more mild Irish climate.

One important difference I'd point out, BYD seem to be using buses they build in China themselves and they had issues due to lack of local maintenance services, parts, etc.

I think it is important to stress that the way they operate in Europe is very different. It really is a joint venture between ADL and BYD, if anything it is more ADL buses then BYD. Here the buses are actually made by ADL in their UK plants.

This is a very different business model then in the Americas. I don't think ADL-BYD would have any issues here delivering parts, maintenance expertise and even the upfront build quality. I think that would help avoid many of the issues they had in Canada.

I think it is the result of this experience, why BYD has wisely decided to partner with ADL in Europe, rather then go it alone. It brings in local expertise and maintenance network and I expect help avoid most of those issues.

I'd love to see a similar report into the ADL-BYD buses in London, I think that would prove more inline with what we might experience here.

BTW I find it very interesting that the issues faced for three manufacturers were mostly interior and exterior body build quality issues. I was pleasantly surprised to see that there were little or no issues with chargers, battery or drive trains.

That says to me that a combination of ADL body and build quality with BYD batteries could be a very reliable bus.

dowlingm wrote: »

I mentioned above BYD’s AC charger - the report to indicate that it is actually better tech but they are now offering a DC option (same as the EU type I am assuming) as it is clearly a problem for customers like TTC who do not want to get locked into a single manufacturer.

The report says that AC is cheaper and easier to install, which it is, but I wouldn't say "better" necessarily. The downside of AC is it is much slower charging then DC. While that maybe ok for overnight charging, DC fast charging would be very useful for buses that come in during the day and get a quick topup charge if needed before going back out.

BYD's AC charging only goes up to 80kW, while depending on charger, CCS DC 350 kW is possible today and 450kW in future. I believe the faster charging speed of DC is well worth it, future proofed and give better fleet flexibility and usage. So even if more expensive, worth it.

BTW They use CCS Combo 1 (CCS1) in the US, while we use CCS Combo 2 (CCS2) in Europe. They are both DC fast charging and use the same protocols and largely the same, but slightly different shaped plug! :rolleyes:

dowlingm wrote: »

Mentions of “hydro” in these reports don’t mean hydroelectricity; in Canada “hydro” is shorthand for electricity the way some in Ireland just say “the ESB”

You are right, but interestingly the reason for the name is that Canada gets most of it's electricity from Hydoelectric (dams), followed by Nuclear. They have relatively little coal/gas, I think over 80% is hydro/nuke and as a result they have one of the cleanest power grids in the world. This is important as it means electric buses are as a result very clean too.

dowlingm

bk - fair comment on the chargers - I was fixating more on the number of faults without reflecting that because only 10 BYDs were assessed, and over a shorter time frame, the number of cycles would have been fewer.

The Commission is also proposing in a separate report to engage the local electricity distributor (Toronto Hydro) and the main producer (Ontario Power Generation - Niagara Falls plus nukes) in a tripartite agreement to design and build the necessary power distribution and charging infrastructure (fleet is about 2000 buses) including power storage to provide more power at cheap overnight rates.

bk

dowlingm wrote: »

bk - fair comment on the chargers - I was fixating more on the number of faults without reflecting that because only 10 BYDs were assessed, and over a shorter time frame, the number of cycles would have been fewer.

Yep, even then the DC chargers seemed to have excellent uptime, 99% uptime is pretty great:

The ABB DC charging system currently has a 99% availability rate and majority of defects have been easily resolved with a remote reset of the charger. Minor hardware failures of various converters and power modules have been quickly repaired by the charger manufacturer under warranty.

Sounds pretty good. The thing to keep in mind, it isn't really the plug that makes a difference, it is more about the design and reliability of a particular model of charger.

What we have seen with chargers used by the ESB, was that the first gen of chargers had lots of issues and often weren't working. But they have now started replacing them with a new model and they seem to be working really well, with great reliability. Similar with newer chargers used by Tesla/Ionity/etc.

So hopefully the NTA will choose a reliable model.

dowlingm wrote: »

The Commission is also proposing in a separate report to engage the local electricity distributor (Toronto Hydro) and the main producer (Ontario Power Generation - Niagara Falls plus nukes) in a tripartite agreement to design and build the necessary power distribution and charging infrastructure (fleet is about 2000 buses) including power storage to provide more power at cheap overnight rates.

Definitely, the NTA/DB/ESB will need to do something similar here. A large number of DC fast chargers in depots is going to put a large amount of strain on the local distribution network around depots. Upgrades in the area might be needed.

An interesting idea would be to put solar panels on the roof of depot buildings and use them to fill onsite batteries, which could then be used to charge the buses overnight, help take the strain off the local network.

Obviously they'd need to work out if that would be cost effective, etc.

dublinman1990

Are the PA hybrid's are meant to launch with Dublin Bus on the 140 today?

I just watched a livestream of O'Connell St in Dublin just now. There was no sign of the PA's being on that route going through that location as of yet. They've have all been SGs so far. PA 5 also had a fault a few days ago while it was out on driver training recently & it had to go to back to the garage to be recovered.

GT89

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Are the PA hybrid's are meant to launch with Dublin Bus on the 140 today?

I just watched a livestream of O'Connell St in Dublin just now. There was no sign of the PA's being on that route going through that location as of yet. They've have all been SGs so far. PA 5 also had a fault a few days ago while it was out on driver training recently & it had to go to back to the garage to be recovered.

I've heard they won't be going into service until DB return to M-F service

ax586

The first two PA's entered service today

p_haugh

PA3 & PA6 to be exact

punisher5112

Yes seen one on 140, wasn't looking for the number, very surprised they went with white display for the rear and at night they're way too bright at the rear.

dublinman1990

Darren Hall's Flickr is showing GT 116 in the new TFI Hybrid livery. I love the black headlights on the front.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/darren_hall/51152836461/in/photostream/lightbox/

dublinman1990

Bus Eireann announced last month that the redevlopment of Roxborough Depot in Limerick is now underway.

The depot will have updated facilities in place for the new hybrid buses which are apparently expected to arrive next year.

Peregrine

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Has anyone seen this Chinese built Higer bus in Dublin recently.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/darren_hall/51049926126/

That's the Higer Azure. It has a range of up to 370km apparently. A contender for the NTA tender.

GT89

Bus Eireann's PADs are now in service in Galway

dublinman1990

GT89 wrote: »

Bus Eireann's PADs are now in service in Galway

That's great. What routes do they serve?

GT89

dublinman1990 wrote: »

That's great. What routes do they serve?

Pictures I saw were on the 407 route

bk

GT89 wrote: »

Pictures I saw were on the 407 route

The pictures I've seen appear to be the 409

BTW I'm wondering if any of the drivers on here have had a chance to drive one yet? How are they from the drivers point of view? Acceleration, etc.?

From the video posted they seem nippy, but hard to tell from a video.

GT89

I'd be interested to see what happens to the rest of the city fleet in Galway now with the arrival of the PADs. I've heard talk that Galway will be switching to an all double deck fleet for city routes I've also heard talk that some of the Galway based dual door VWDs will move to Cork.

ax586

bk wrote: »

The pictures I've seen appear to be the 409

BTW I'm wondering if any of the drivers on here have had a chance to drive one yet? How are they from the drivers point of view? Acceleration, etc.?

From the video posted they seem nippy, but hard to tell from a video.

I'm in Summerhill so ill be waiting for a bit..one of Broadstone's PA is in Harristown for training but what I've being told is drivers like them.

dublinman1990

It appears the next set of new hybrids are going out on the 4 once Broadstone concludes it's hybrid bus allocation on the 140. PA21-PA41 are based in Harristown which are to be used on the 4 route going from this allocation list.

PA1-20=route140 broadstone
PA21-41= route 4 harristown
PA42-58= route 122 phibsboro
PA59-74= route 123 summerhill

GT89

Galway to become the first city in Ireland to have a fully hybrid fleet by 2022
https://connachttribune.ie/galway-first-city-to-move-to-hybrid-bus-eireann-fleet-by-2022/

Sam Russell

GT89 wrote: »

Galway to become the first city in Ireland to have a fully hybrid fleet by 2022
https://connachttribune.ie/galway-first-city-to-move-to-hybrid-bus-eireann-fleet-by-2022/

Which constituency is the TD that is Minister for Hybrid Buses from?

I thought so.

In fairness, they look to be pretty crap hybrids, only 2.5km worth of running on batteries. The cross city link itself is 2.7km

Unless the batteries are fully recharged by the diesel engine when outside the city center. Maybe thats the case but I don't know enough about these buses