Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

devnull

Burt Renaults wrote: »

It was more than just a mistake. I would hope that there were some kind of consequences for whoever in the NTA signed off on their purchase. They're not even properly wheelchair accessible. I think they were allocated 40 of them. That's several million euro of public money blown on a fleet of buses that were noisy and unreliable from day-one and are literally falling apart after less than three years. Rumour has it that they were in storage for a while prior to 2018 because Dublin Bus took one look at them and said "nope". I have never heard an engineer, a driver or a passenger with anything positive to say about them. As far as steering, braking and acceleration are concerned, they are dangerously poor vehicles.

They should have bought a decent fleet of high quality single-deckers from a company that wasn't doubling-up as a religious cult.

Public bodies need to use standard procurement methods, such as via tenders, they cannot just go out and buy vehicles off the shelf of their choice, they write a tender, set the criteria and the tendering parties then will then compete to score the most points against those criteria.

I am no fan of the Streetlites, even if I think some of the criticism is over the top, but it generally is a sign of the way that the bus market in the left hand side of the road market went for conventual diesel vehicles over the last 10 years or so in the UK and Ireland. Heavyweight, well built single deck vehicles, simply fell out of fashion with the industry.

The original versions of the Wright Eclipse (on Volvo B7RLE chassis) and Wright Eclipse Gemini vehicles (on Volvo B9TL chassis) were far and away the best built vehicles of their generation. However the were not especially light vehicles, but many operators were happy to pay a bit of a premium for their build quality and sturdiness.

However gradually the other players in the market started to produce, lighter, cheaper, more fuel efficient vehicles that meant that the purchase and running cost difference between the more sturdy Wright vehicles and these newer, cheaper vehicles was so great that it simply wasn't worth paying a sizeable amount more in purchase and running costs for the better build quality, so their previous market leading products had become commercially unviable.

One of the reasons that Wright went bust is that they were unable to adapt to this changing marketplace. When the market called for cheaper vehicles to replace the original Eclipse and Gemini they were slow to react to this demand and when they did react, they produced sub par vehicles, such as the Streetlite that were not as good as the products on offer from ADL.

I think that the vehicles that the NTA have ordered are possibly the best they could have got when the tender was advertised The Enviro 400 MMC variant they have used ticks more boxes than any other double decker out there at the moment. It will be interesting to see who wins the other tenders, but I would imagine that ADL would be strong favourites.

devnull

Burt Renaults wrote: »

They don't have to accept them if they don't meet quality requirements. And a bus without a correctly functioning braking system, underpowered steering with inadequate lock, and with interior parts that randomly drop off, does not meet quality requirements.

Part of the tender marking criteria involved evaluating the after sales and support network provided by those putting forward a bid. Immediately this gives an advantage to those suppliers who already have the relevant infrastructure and track record in Ireland of delivering service and support to their customers.

Volvo have an extensive sales and support network up and down the country and Wright could leverage both their own presence and the Mercedes dealer network for their own vehicles, so it put both of them at an advantage as none of the other manufacturers had anything of any great size.

This will change in the future though, since now ADL have got a big hybird deal, they are investing in infrastructure in this country, so that'll be one advantage that Volvo and Wright will no longer have over everyone else. I can easily see ADL being the dominant supplier for a good while to come.

The Streetlite was never designed to be a premium product. It was designed to be a cheap, lightweight vehicle that doesn't guzzle much fuel and ticks as many boxes as possible. As you've discovered though, whilst it ticks those boxes and looks good on paper, it's a relatively poor vehicle.

dublinman1990

Ulsterbus had ordered some single deck versions of the StreetDeck which looks like a Wright Eclipse single decker on the back of the bus and a StreetDeck on the front. To my mind; it appears that bus has a much more sturdier chassis than what the Streetlite provides when talking about build quality. But will the NTA consider that bus a like the single deck Streetdeck to go operators here in the Republic if a electric single deck version came onto the market?

There's also Zero Emission Electric single deckers in service on the 53/54 route currently with Go North East in the UK. The bus is known as a Voltra Yutong E10 single decker. The picture of the bus is here on Flickr. Would the NTA go very far with considering to get this bus alike for Irish operators here while also looking at the Higer Azure model?

Burt Renaults

devnull wrote: »

I am no fan of the Streetlites, even if I think some of the criticism is over the top

Honestly, they deserve every ounce of criticism they receive, and should never have been bought, regardless of how many boxes they ticked. I spent almost two years driving them on a daily basis, and while I can appreciate their overall lightness and (relatively) good fuel economy, their cheapness - not just in terms of build quality and reliability, but also general cab ergonomics - comes at a huge cost to the unfortunate individuals who have to operate them. I could almost overlook stuff like the suspension system that ensures you feel every crack on the road, the heavy steering, the loosely-fitted interior panels that rattled so loudly that I used to regularly have to switch the engine off to speak to control or to answer a passenger's query. I could even overlook the horribly uncomfortable driving position, the fact that you have to switch the engine off to adjust the steering wheel, and all the unnecessary alarms and beeps that would leave me with a headache at the end of a long shift. Or the fact that they've saved a couple of kg and maybe €50 per bus by having a single poor quality stalk that operates the indicators, the full-beams, the windscreen wipers/washers and the horn. As for their appalling reliability, well the Volvo B5TL has recurring problems of its own (spilling coolant is a big one), and I'm sure the hybrids will have their own issues (there's a lot more that can go wrong), so they're hardly unique in being mechanically problematic.

What I can't overlook is the litany of safety issues - things that have caused accidents and injuries to passengers. They are a dangerous bus to drive. Every driver who gets behind the wheel of a Streetlite is putting his or her licence at risk. The brakes and retarder don't work like anything else I've ever driven. They cannot be applied smoothly and progressively. It feels like the engine is constantly fighting a battle against them. As a result, there have been countless incidents where drivers have had to brake harshly, or where the bus has lurched forward unexpectedly. And then there's the lack of steering lock, which increases the need for reversing in tight, built-up areas. A poorly-positioned reverse camera is the icing on the cake.

It's also unforgivable that a supposedly accessible bus in the 21st Century is so difficult for wheelchair users. The protruding cab door makes the entrance too narrow for the average wheelchair to pass without hitting it several times. And if it's an over-sized chair, they might not get on at all.

devnull

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Ulsterbus had ordered some single deck versions of the StreetDeck which looks like a Wright Eclipse single decker on the back of the bus and a StreetDeck on the front. To my mind; it appears that bus has a much more sturdier chassis than what the Streetlite provides when talking about build quality. But will the NTA consider that bus a like the single deck Streetdeck to go operators here in the Republic if a electric single deck version came onto the market?

As stated, NTA cannot just approach a manufacturer and buy vehicles for them, they have to tender for them and tenders are based on people scoring enough points on paper against the criteria of which the tender is set-up for.

In relation to Ulsterbus, they are in a different country and are now outside the EU and are not subject to the same kind of procurement rules that the NTA are subject to. Also with Wright being a company based within said country, that is also a factor that comes into play.

There's also Zero Emission Electric single deckers in service on the 53/54 route currently with Go North East in the UK. The bus is known as a Voltra Yutong E10 single decker.. Would the NTA go very far with considering to get this bus alike for Irish operators here while also looking at the Higer Azure model?

As a commercial company, Go-Ahead did not need to tender for their vehicles and instead could approach Yutong directly. If the NTA were to purchase a fleet of these, Yutong would need to win a tender. So it's not about whether the NTA want to buy a particular manufacturer of bus or not, it's about who scores most points on paper against the tender criteria and generally manufacturers will adapt the vehicles to win a tender. VDL for example, had that down to a fine art in Bus Eireann in the past.

punisher5112

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T71cVhxG_v4

Hopefully ours will be safer....

punisher5112

The amount of fire extinguishers they went through....

dublinman1990

punisher5112 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T71cVhxG_v4

Hopefully ours will be safer....

I hear ya. Although as we are in the EU; I think we have an advantage here because any products coming to Ireland has to have strict safety standards attached to them before they get to make them or ship them to Ireland.

GT89

punisher5112 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T71cVhxG_v4

Hopefully ours will be safer....

Calling those contraptions a bus is generous looks more like stretched golf carts to me

GT89

punisher5112 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T71cVhxG_v4

Hopefully ours will be safer....

Here's another one issue I saw on FB with an electric bus in London
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2732208353537797

Geoff Marshall checking out electric buses in Newcastle. They were at least able to find one driver to say nice things about them.

Peregrine

Peregrine wrote: »

Anyway, the framework for the 200 single deck electric buses should be announced very soon. Initial order of 45 starting delivery towards the end of the year or early next year. Athlone looks set to get the first batch of these. Carlow is also being looked at but that's subject to receiving funding for a Carlow town bus service.

Alexander Dennis won this tender. Enviro200EV.

p_haugh

Peregrine wrote: »

Alexander Dennis won this tender. Enviro200EV.

If this is actually the case, I'm not surprised. I'd imagine the NTA would have rathered this was the outcome as it also means more fleet similarity (aka better for maintenance etc).

devnull

Peregrine wrote: »

Alexander Dennis won this tender. Enviro200EV.

To be expected, they really are in pole position now when it comes to the bus side of things in the Republic of Ireland with both the double deck and single deck contracts with the NTA.

Wright deciding to prioritise going down the integral route rather than building on Volvo's well established dealer network and market position really has come back to bite both Wright and Volvo.

bk

I'm not terribly surprised. They seem to have a very strong presence with London Bus, making up by far the majority of EV buses. A purely untested new Chinese manufacturer with no presence in London would have been more risky.

bk

Confirmed in the latest NTA Board meeting minutes:

12.Procurement of Single Supplier Framework for the Purchase of Single Deck Long Length Electric Buses

Following introductory remarks <snip> and subsequent discussion, the Board, with one exception, approved the award of a single supplier framework agreement for the purchase of single-deck (long length) electric buses to Alexander Dennis Limited and the placing of an initial order under that framework for 45 buses.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Agreed-Minutes-of-May-2021-Board-Meeting.pdf

punisher5112

Here is a hybrid from yesterday.....

dublinman1990

The PA's are out on the 4.

Peregrine

devnull wrote: »

To be expected, they really are in pole position now when it comes to the bus side of things in the Republic of Ireland with both the double deck and single deck contracts with the NTA.

Wright deciding to prioritise going down the integral route rather than building on Volvo's well established dealer network and market position really has come back to bite both Wright and Volvo.

There's still the tender for up to 800 double deck electric buses to be selected at the end of this year. You would imagine ADL are favourites for that too with the Enviro400EV. If they get that, ADL could end up supplying 1300+ buses to the NTA over 7-8 years.

bk

Yes, if there was any chance of a different company winning one of these tenders, I would have said the single deckers, due to their being more options for EV single deckers, with the Double Deckers, there are so few Double Decker EV options, I'd be shocked if anyone else wins.

Basically you have the ADL Enviro400EV or Optare Metrodecker EV, no others come to mind.

Interestingly ADL recently announced the Enviro500EV for the US market. A larger tri-axle EV, if they make one for our market, maybe they could replace the VT's

p_haugh

PA13 involved in an accident in Phibsboro earlier today, front bumper and windscreen seem to be damaged. Video of it up on YouTube

devnull

This follows an incident with PA3 earlier this week, so that is two off the road with damage, despite not many being in service.

bk

Just bad luck/coincidence or perhaps a fault (breaks) or perhaps drivers not being used to a new bus/controls, different handling, faster acceleration, etc. ?

punisher5112

bk wrote: »

Just bad luck/coincidence or perhaps a fault (breaks) or perhaps drivers not being used to a new bus/controls, different handling, faster acceleration, etc. ?

No it's just the typical numpties not looking and pulling out because they see a bus and they want in front.....

The one from Tuesday where object near went through the driver after smashing through the windscreen was a crash of a car in opposite direction.

We are among the top in trained on how to drive actually.

Pretty self explanatory on the end of that video... Stop... Means stop

bk

punisher5112 wrote: »

No it's just the typical numpties not looking and pulling out because they see a bus and they want in front.....

But it is big and Yellow, how could they miss it :rolleyes:

Yeah, from my experience cycling in the past, bus drivers are some of the best drivers on the roads.

punisher5112

bk wrote: »

But it is big and Yellow, how could they miss it :rolleyes:

Yeah, from my experience cycling in the past, bus drivers are some of the best drivers on the roads.

Yes it reminds me of when I started out on motorbikes, they would look through you, you would see them looking but not at you, they are actually looking at the car, van etc behind.
Big yellow and lights always on, doesn't make any difference.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

But it is big and Yellow, how could they miss it :rolleyes:

They did not miss it - they hit it.

dublinman1990

What length are the new Enviro200EVs? Are they the same length as the SG's or the Streetlites?

EDIT: Ah for gods sake. PA15 is now getting repaired due to a crash. Who are the idiots crashing into these buses?

Ireland trains

New VDL coaches due for delivery in the new tfi livery

bk

dublinman1990 wrote: »

EDIT: Ah for gods sake. PA15 is now getting repaired due to a crash. Who are the idiots crashing into these buses?

Seems like morons are being drawn to the bright yellow like moths to a flame!

Ireland trains wrote: »

New VDL coaches due for delivery in the new tfi livery

The new livery looks great on them. Not so much yellow on the front.