World League thread

LuckyGent88

Leinstertomas wrote: »

https://twitter.com/WorldRugby/status/1103310725815115776
Revised plan announced. Still not liking the whole idea tbh

Certainly a slightly better plan than what was first muted in the press last week but I still don’t believe it’s the correct thing to do. Let’s see how this plan goes down.

Thrashssacre

I’m okay with this version to be honest, fairest way it could be done and literally nobody has suggested another implementably way to give emerging nations a decent chance to improve. Not sure about having no religation in certain years though the likes of a Romania or a Spain having an amazing one off year would feel very hard done by not getting a playoff.

sydthebeat

Thrashssacre wrote: »

I’m okay with this version to be honest, fairest way it could be done and literally nobody has suggested another implementably way to give emerging nations a decent chance to improve. Not sure about having no religation in certain years though the likes of a Romania or a Spain having an amazing one off year would feel very hard done by not getting a playoff.

alternatively imagine someone like Ireland having a nightmare year and loosing a play off game to georgia ... the next year theres a lions tour which means it would take them 2 years to come back up....

hard to complain though as thems the breaks and all that.

i guess its basically all about introducing promotion / relegation to the 6 nations.. whether it will fly now is a different story

Thrashssacre

sydthebeat wrote: »

alternatively imagine someone like Ireland having a nightmare year and loosing a play off game to georgia ... the next year theres a lions tour which means it would take them 2 years to come back up....

hard to complain though as thems the breaks and all that.

i guess its basically all about introducing promotion / relegation to the 6 nations.. whether it will fly now is a different story

True as well I think that may be a larger proposition for Scotland or France in the medium term which may bring fierce opposition from both.

I think overall there a fair few problems with this but the positives outweigh them..... just.

troyzer

Thrashssacre wrote: »

sydthebeat wrote: »

alternatively imagine someone like Ireland having a nightmare year and loosing a play off game to georgia ... the next year theres a lions tour which means it would take them 2 years to come back up....

hard to complain though as thems the breaks and all that.

i guess its basically all about introducing promotion / relegation to the 6 nations.. whether it will fly now is a different story

True as well I think that may be a larger proposition for Scotland or France in the medium term which may bring fierce opposition from both.

I think overall there a fair few problems with this but the positives outweigh them..... just.

It still nerfs the world cup.

And I can't imagine the per union TV money would be the same for this day compared to the previous one.

Thrashssacre

Yeah I get that the World Cup takes a massive hit bit in rugby the World Cup is actually a fairly recent thing and if protecting its importance means destroying tier two nations I don’t think it’s worth preserving.

I still think it has merits though bringing fans together from 20/24 of the most competitive nations to the same cities/countries for a celebration of the game and Id still imaging it’ll be the pinnacle for any fan and player, people will just be a lot more use to the sides that feature in the knockouts then they are now.

Pudsy33

Six Nations LTD are hardly going to agree to this. The Italians and Scottish unions in particular will be terrified.

sydthebeat

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Six Nations LTD are hardly going to agree to this. The Italians and Scottish unions in particular will be terrified.

seemingly they have already voted against any relegation from the 6N


however im not sure if they have a veto, or how much '6N ltd' is bound by WR diktats

Former Former

sydthebeat wrote: »

seemingly they have already voted against any relegation from the 6N


however im not sure if they have a veto, or how much '6N ltd' is bound by WR diktats

WR don't really have any power, all decisions are made by the Council which is made up of the unions.

If the 6N maintain a united front on relegation then the discussion is over.

bilston

If the 6Ns vetos promotion/relegation then let the moralising over the USA getting the nod over Fiji in the Rugby Championship and therefore the World League come to an end.

swiwi_

World Rugby’s proposed ‘World League’ has encountered severe turbulence, with potentially grave consequences for Australia, New Zealand and to a lesser extent Argentina and South Africa.

In Dublin this week, the future shape of global rugby will be thrashed around, with any number of outcomes still possible.

But the futility of framing discussion about the World League around the inclusion or exclusion of Fiji has been laid bare by Premiership Rugby and the French LNR this week flexing their considerable muscle. It is a curt reminder as to what is really at stake.

According to a report in The Daily Telegraph, the two bodies representing the clubs are threatening to sue World Rugby if it proceeds with the World League, believing this steps outside an agreement struck last year in San Francisco, purported to guarantee structure of the global season to 2032.

The core of the conflict can be broken down thus; does World Rugby (and by definition, it’s member unions) have the authority and mandate to dictate the structure of global rugby as it sees fit?

Or do the clubs – to whom northern hemisphere players are contracted to – have sufficient power to impose their season, with agreed windows allowed for Test rugby?

Battle-lines have been drawn around player welfare, although it’s safe to consider this a cloak for what is really at stake – ultimate power and control of the game.

The clubs claim that the World League would place unacceptable demands on players. This despite the league not requiring nations to play any more Tests than they do now – and in the case of the SANZAAR nations, fewer.

It’s all in the eye of the beholder, of course. Consider that the current English Premiership runs from the 31st August last year, until the first June. The French Top 14 extends even further, from the 25th August, until the 15th June.

That’s more than 9 and a half months. Add in pre-season training and trial matches, and it’s easy to see why clubs might prefer their players not to bother with the pesky business of touring foreign lands to play Test rugby.

The smoke and mirrors continued, with another club source stating; “World Rugby are trying to impose a model without consulting us while trying to wreck the tournaments already in place here which are generating significant revenues for the game.”

Revenues for the game? Try revenue for the clubs. Clubs that in many cases are heavily in debt, but who will continue to spend money to live above their means, trying to attract better players. Self-absorbed clubs, who – rightly or wrongly – carry no responsibility for the well-being of the global game.

Raelene Castle and Steve Tew have one central task this week, and – at the risk of sounding heartless – it isn’t to help design a global competition that ensures a pathway for Pacific Island nations.

Somehow the SANZAAR bosses, and World Rugby heads, Sir Bill Beaumont and Gus Pichot, and CEO Brett Gosper, need to find a way to convince the RFU (England) and FFR (France) of two things;

1. that the proposed Global League provides them with a better financial outcome than their current position, or potential position should they construct an alternative broadcast rights deal in concert with the clubs, and that it doesn’t undermine the Six Nations; and

2. that the optimal future of the game is contingent upon them aligning with their fellow nations, and that a head-on battle with Premiership Rugby and the LNR, for the primacy of Test rugby over club rugby is a battle worth having

If they can do this, rugby will have its World League, and with it, regardless of any imperfections, an opportunity to mitigate the commercial imbalances that threaten to relegate the SANZAAR nations to ‘feeder’ status for the northern club competitions.

If they can’t, then rugby will move a step closer to the soccer model, where the best players in the world congregate into a small number of rich, northern hemisphere club competitions, and international rugby – outside of the World Cup and the Six Nations – pales into insignificance.

Critics of World Rugby, Rugby Australia and New Zealand Rugby need to think again, very carefully, as to who the villain in this piece really is, think about where their bread is buttered, and consider what they want the game to look like in five, ten and twenty years time.

troyzer

swiwi_ wrote: »

World Rugby’s proposed ‘World League’ has encountered severe turbulence, with potentially grave consequences for Australia, New Zealand and to a lesser extent Argentina and South Africa.

In Dublin this week, the future shape of global rugby will be thrashed around, with any number of outcomes still possible.

But the futility of framing discussion about the World League around the inclusion or exclusion of Fiji has been laid bare by Premiership Rugby and the French LNR this week flexing their considerable muscle. It is a curt reminder as to what is really at stake.

According to a report in The Daily Telegraph, the two bodies representing the clubs are threatening to sue World Rugby if it proceeds with the World League, believing this steps outside an agreement struck last year in San Francisco, purported to guarantee structure of the global season to 2032.

The core of the conflict can be broken down thus; does World Rugby (and by definition, it’s member unions) have the authority and mandate to dictate the structure of global rugby as it sees fit?

Or do the clubs – to whom northern hemisphere players are contracted to – have sufficient power to impose their season, with agreed windows allowed for Test rugby?

Battle-lines have been drawn around player welfare, although it’s safe to consider this a cloak for what is really at stake – ultimate power and control of the game.

The clubs claim that the World League would place unacceptable demands on players. This despite the league not requiring nations to play any more Tests than they do now – and in the case of the SANZAAR nations, fewer.

It’s all in the eye of the beholder, of course. Consider that the current English Premiership runs from the 31st August last year, until the first June. The French Top 14 extends even further, from the 25th August, until the 15th June.

That’s more than 9 and a half months. Add in pre-season training and trial matches, and it’s easy to see why clubs might prefer their players not to bother with the pesky business of touring foreign lands to play Test rugby.

The smoke and mirrors continued, with another club source stating; “World Rugby are trying to impose a model without consulting us while trying to wreck the tournaments already in place here which are generating significant revenues for the game.”

Revenues for the game? Try revenue for the clubs. Clubs that in many cases are heavily in debt, but who will continue to spend money to live above their means, trying to attract better players. Self-absorbed clubs, who – rightly or wrongly – carry no responsibility for the well-being of the global game.

Raelene Castle and Steve Tew have one central task this week, and – at the risk of sounding heartless – it isn’t to help design a global competition that ensures a pathway for Pacific Island nations.

Somehow the SANZAAR bosses, and World Rugby heads, Sir Bill Beaumont and Gus Pichot, and CEO Brett Gosper, need to find a way to convince the RFU (England) and FFR (France) of two things;

1. that the proposed Global League provides them with a better financial outcome than their current position, or potential position should they construct an alternative broadcast rights deal in concert with the clubs, and that it doesn’t undermine the Six Nations; and

2. that the optimal future of the game is contingent upon them aligning with their fellow nations, and that a head-on battle with Premiership Rugby and the LNR, for the primacy of Test rugby over club rugby is a battle worth having

If they can do this, rugby will have its World League, and with it, regardless of any imperfections, an opportunity to mitigate the commercial imbalances that threaten to relegate the SANZAAR nations to ‘feeder’ status for the northern club competitions.

If they can’t, then rugby will move a step closer to the soccer model, where the best players in the world congregate into a small number of rich, northern hemisphere club competitions, and international rugby – outside of the World Cup and the Six Nations – pales into insignificance.

Critics of World Rugby, Rugby Australia and New Zealand Rugby need to think again, very carefully, as to who the villain in this piece really is, think about where their bread is buttered, and consider what they want the game to look like in five, ten and twenty years time.

I think everyone is in agreement that the clubs in France and England need to be brought to heel. The French clubs are definitely better than the English, they seem more willing to co-operate.

But we still haven't seen how the world league doesn't demean the world cup and also how players are expected to do so much travelling in the summer and playing up to five tests in a row in winter.

Former Former

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/2018-2019/joint-statement-by-premiership-rugby-and-lnr/

English and French clubs not happy about being excluded, and it's hard to blame them

troyzer

I'm starting to really buy into this idea now. It's all explained in the video below but here's the simple version.

The world is now divided into Europe and everywhere else. Europe keeps the Six Nations with a relegation playoff between the bottom team and the top team in division 2. There is also a playoff between bottom of division 2 and the winner of division 3 and so on.

Rugby Championship expands to a 6 team round robin to include Japan and Fiji based on current rankings. There is then a new RC division 2 with a hybrid of Pacific island and Americas teams.

Division 3 is a four conference, home and away format.

6 nations and RC points are carried forward into the Nations Championship table (in a North vs South conference setup) where the North plays the three away games in July and three home games in November. No semi, only a final between the top ranked teams in each conference. So it will always be a north vs south final.

I think the bold is crucial. It's a north vs south tournament, not really a world league. And maybe that's where they try to protect the world cup. It's almost like the Superbowl where only certain teams can play each other.

https://twitter.com/WorldRugby/status/1106178249195966464?s=20

irishbucsfan

Far preferable to what we have currently anyway for me.

The money involved is astonishing if reports are true. Hopefully this’ll be an end to the 6 Nations’ dictatorship over the future of European rugby. Never thought I’d see that, never saw that coming at all, and I come up with some absolute mad ****e.

troyzer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Far preferable to what we have currently anyway for me.

The money involved is astonishing if reports are true.

Absolutely agree. I think World Rugby might have rescued this one.

Although it should be said that those figures are over 12 years and presumably include more than just the top 12 teams.

Tigerandahalf

A bit mad how they have dumped the USA for Fiji. It smacks of voting to get the deal over the line. Fiji have more votes than the USA.

Where exactly are Fiji going to play their home games?

AdamD

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

A bit mad how they have dumped the USA for Fiji. It smacks of voting to get the deal over the line. Fiji have more votes than the USA.

Where exactly are Fiji going to play their home games?

Well Fiji get in on merit basis of their rank. USA was a pure money grab attempt

troyzer

AdamD wrote: »

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

A bit mad how they have dumped the USA for Fiji. It smacks of voting to get the deal over the line. Fiji have more votes than the USA.

Where exactly are Fiji going to play their home games?

Well Fiji get in on merit basis of their rank. USA was a pure money grab attempt

The first iteration is done by world rankings and the incumbent tier 1 countries. Then by promotion/relegation.

Maybe if the Americans have a stunning world cup they could slip into the top 12?

bilston

There seem to be 5 billion reasons why this will happen.

Former Former

bilston wrote: »

There seem to be 5 billion reasons why this will happen.

"Up to" 5 billion, over 12 years, spread across over a lot of teams. We don't know how it will be distributed but I doubt there's a huge financial incentive for the 6N teams.

MJohnston

Former Former wrote: »

"Up to" 5 billion, over 12 years, spread across over a lot of teams. We don't know how it will be distributed but I doubt there's a huge financial incentive for the 6N teams.

The financial incentive is for the suits in charge, everything else is secondary.

thebaz

Unsurprisingly the Irish and Scots supposedly don't want relegation - lets reward mediocrity and keep game elitist, or take a chance and grow the game, and just ensure you are not bad eneogh to get what would be a deserved relegation.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/47639897

Tigerandahalf

thebaz wrote: »

Unsurprisingly the Irish and Scots supposedly don't want relegation - lets reward mediocrity and keep game elitist, or take a chance and grow the game, and just ensure you are not bad eneogh to get what would be a deserved relegation.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/47639897

It would be stupid of the 6 Nations unions to accept relegation. They would have everything to lose.

I don't see how the game can grow either if teams are being relegated and promoted each year. In the 6 Nations you could have Italy and Georgia in it every 2nd year, going up and down.

How could they make any financial plans? If France got relegated you are losing a big market straight off.

thebaz

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

It would be stupid of the 6 Nations unions to accept relegation. They would have everything to lose.

Competive sport is about winning and losing - if you lose 5 matches ther should be consequences , otherwise you just are rewarding mediocrity

The Lost Sheep

thebaz wrote: »

Competive sport is about winning and losing - if you lose 5 matches ther should be consequences , otherwise you just are rewarding mediocrity

When the 6 nations is so vital to the running of the sport through the money it makes then relegation cant happen.
Ireland and the other 6 nations need to play the Georgias/Romanias far more and these sides need to play 6 nations sides at least two games a year

Tigerandahalf

Looks like relegation/promotion is out the window as RFU show their hand. Complete sense really. The SH unions are asking the NH ones to dangle on a financial cliff edge.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/mar/26/rfu-rugby-union-oppose-nations-championship-catastrophic-relegation-fears

sydthebeat

That's an excellent interview in the latest edition of the will greenwood podcast with Steve Martin about the whole world league, six nations, cvc, sponsorship etc...

Well worth a listen for anyone interested in the goings on of the commercial side of rugby.

MJohnston

Loved him in Planes, Trains, and Automobiles.

I know there's so many reasons against it happening.... but I would like to see an annual global tournament. It'll be good craic.