Is the Irish Navy a disgrace?

Signore Fancy Pants

odyssey06 wrote: »

They are getting paid for it. Because the rest are working away and paying taxes. Funding ships... fuel etc. Go team.

Of course they are getting paid for it.

You want them to do it for free?

Auntie Semite

odyssey06 wrote: »

They can refuse illegal orders. In fact they are obliged to no?

Well that's the thing, it's a matter of perception.
The political class, the Media, NGOs and much of the left perceive those crossing the med as 'refugees' in distress so that is how they are regarded. Therefore it is legal to 'rescue' them.

It does seem strange though that a search and rescue operation 'rescues' vessels in distress in the exact same location and exact same coordinates every single day for over two years.

Any other coastguard or rescue operation in this situation would arouse suspicion and warrant immediate investigation but not in this case for some reason.

odyssey06

Dale Doback wrote: »

Of course they are getting paid for it.

You want them to do it for free?

Not sure what your point is. They are following orders in carrying out missions. That may involve rescuing people or arresting people or shooting at people or ships. They are not a charitable humanitarian organisation. They are carrying out missions to get paid and to serve the state not for humanitarian reasons. They dont get to choose the mission. So praising them as individuals for the aims of the mission misses the point entirely.

Gwanoman

donkeykong5 wrote: »

working 9am to 5pm daily. Not pouncing round a ship taking 4 breaks a day for nourishment. And expecting my family to turn out and cheer me every few weeks for returning to my base. !

Yeah... this never really happens..

donkeykong5

Gwanoman wrote: »

donkeykong5 wrote: »

working 9am to 5pm daily. Not pouncing round a ship taking 4 breaks a day for nourishment. And expecting my family to turn out and cheer me every few weeks for returning to my base. !

Yeah... this never really happens..

Pop down to cobh sometime. Its pathetic ! And yes it does bloody happen pal. Pity credit like this cheering dressed up dummies off a ship isn't done to firefighters. Ambulance men. Police. Army..real men working daily protecting Ireland and its people.

Deise Vu

steddyeddy wrote: »

That agreement was challenged in Dublin in 2016 but remains unchallenged in the UK. The fishermen from the south can fish in Uk waters but not vice versa.

And do they? Genuine question, I am baffled by this. All the references are to Irish fishermen being allowed to fish in the north, there is no mention of them actually choosing to. The fact that the nordies come south would tend to suggest that, for whatever reason, the fishing is better on the south side. As I said in my original post, if both sides are happily fishing both sides of the border then this is a bizarre move.

steddyeddy

Can you imagine how Britain would feel if an EU army was carrying this out?

Deise Vu

Deise Vu wrote: »

As I said in my original post, if both sides are happily fishing both sides of the border then this is a bizarre move.

it's not bizarre, the Irish Government is just acting in accordance with an (Irish) Supreme Court ruling that has struck down our voisinage agreement (you fish in my seas, I'll fish in yours) with the UK.

The UK, for whatever reason, continues to allow irish vessels into its waters.

corner of hells

donkeykong5 wrote: »

Pop down to cobh sometime. Its pathetic ! And yes it does bloody happen pal. Pity credit like this cheering dressed up dummies off a ship isn't done to firefighters. Ambulance men. Police. Army..real men working daily protecting Ireland and its people.

Real men who recovered 40 or so bodies from the sea after the Air India disaster .

Satta Massagana

Nixonbot wrote: »

Yvan eht nioj.

Hmm. I wonder are they recruiting. I've a sudden urge to get the train down to Cork.

Harsh rap. You have a few navy ships patrolling coastline in the thousands of kilometres - when they're not deployed to the Med. Them shady Portuguese trawlers can make out like a bandit.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Can you imagine how Britain would feel if an EU army was carrying this out?

Carrying out what?

HeidiHeidi

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

HMS St Albans doing 13 knots towards Belfast, things just got real, lol...



https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-5.7/centery:54.7/zoom:11

She's overshot the runway.

Signore Fancy Pants

odyssey06 wrote: »

Not sure what your point is. They are following orders in carrying out missions. That may involve rescuing people or arresting people or shooting at people or ships. They are not a charitable humanitarian organisation. They are carrying out missions to get paid and to serve the state not for humanitarian reasons. They dont get to choose the mission. So praising them as individuals for the aims of the mission misses the point entirely.

My point was...donkeykong5 was slating the Naval Service, so I countered that with asking him the question of what he has done for humanity.....that was my point and it was pretty clear.

They sailed under Operation PONTUS which was a humanitarian mission. Thats another one of my points.

The Naval Service leadership do have a say on what missions they deploy on....they have to, they are the S.M.E's. Its discussed at that level before Govt say yay or nay.

Are you sure of my points now?

Signore Fancy Pants

donkeykong5 wrote: »

Pop down to cobh sometime. Its pathetic ! And yes it does bloody happen pal. Pity credit like this cheering dressed up dummies off a ship isn't done to firefighters. Ambulance men. Police. Army..real men working daily protecting Ireland and its people.

The Army get huge cheers in Dublin airport when they return home from overseas service.

expectationlost

skooterblue2 wrote: »

That is more likely a political decision made by senior civil service or ministerial level. They are only acting on someone elses orders.

its the law, recently reinforced by the supreme court.

davetherave

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Well in fairness what is the purpose of our Army for starters? I wish someone would tell me this now, with due respect to those who are there of course.

Air Corps probably assist in rescues and sending our Ministers off in the Government Jet (if it still exists, haven't checked that out, too bored to do it),

Maritime too, but please, not for helping traffickers anymore.

https://www.defence.ie/system/files/media/file-uploads/2018-06/wp2015eng_1.pdf


Chapters 3 and 4 have set out the defence policy response to the security challenges
set out in Chapter 2 and other government requirements for defence. They have
also set out, in some detail, the differing tasks that Defence must be capable of
undertaking. The successful completion of these tasks requires a range of inputs from
the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces. This chapter consolidates those
requirements into revised roles for the PDF and the RDF.
Roles of the PDF:
• To provide for the military defence of the State from armed aggression;
• To participate in multi-national peace support, crisis management and
humanitarian relief operations in accordance with Government direction and
legislative provision;
• To aid the civil power – meaning in practice to assist, when requested, An
Garda Síochána, who have primary responsibility for law and order, including the
protection of the internal security of the State;
• To contribute to maritime security encompassing the delivery of a fishery
protection service and the operation of the State’s Fishery Monitoring Centre,
and in co-operation with other agencies with responsibilities in the maritime
domain, to contribute to a shared common maritime operational picture;
• To participate in the Joint Taskforce on Drugs interdiction;
• To contribute to national resilience through the provision of specified defence
aid to the civil authority (ATCA) supports to lead agencies in response to major
emergencies, including cyber security emergencies, and in the maintenance of
essential services, as set out in MOUs and SLAs agreed by the Department of
Defence;
• To provide a Ministerial air transport service (MATS);
• To provide ceremonial services on behalf of Government;
• To provide a range of other supports to government departments and agencies
in line with MOUs and SLAs agreed by the Department of Defence e.g. search
and rescue and air ambulance services;
• To contribute to Ireland’s economic well being through engagement with industry,
research and development and job initiatives, in support of government policy;
• To fulfil any other tasks that Government may assign from time to time.

Roles of the RDF:
• To augment the PDF in crisis situations;
• To contribute to state ceremonial events.

Atlantic Dawn

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

She's overshot the runway.

They now have AIS turned off, getting battle ready perhaps

HeidiHeidi

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

They now have AIS turned off, getting battle ready perhaps

Still showing for me ...... running away to Scotland. Cowards!

Stephen15

We are a neutral country. The reason for this is not what the left would like to make out that we are all peace loving people, humanitarian people which they would like to make out to fulfill their agenda. It is for very good strategic reasons to defend our country

For this reason our Defence Forces should not be deployed in forgein territories to fulfill UN and EU programmes which do not in any way serve our own national interests. The Navy and the Army should only be used to defend our country.

The Navy should be defending our fishing waters and preventing illegal immigration and drugs smuggling into Ireland. They have absolutely no business being in the Mediterranean that is up to Libya now to defend their waters which is the agreement.

Atlantic Dawn

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Still showing for me ...... running away to Scotland. Cowards!

Over for now

malinheader

Does anyone know the reason why the voisnage agreement was scrapped by the supreme court..
The amount of hassle and aggro this is going to stir up is going to be a disaster in my opinion for a lot of fishermen on both sides.

steddyeddy

Aegir wrote: »

Carrying out what?

Escorting fishermen out of UK waters.

steddyeddy

malinheader wrote: »

Does anyone know the reason why the voisnage agreement was scrapped by the supreme court..
The amount of hassle and aggro this is going to stir up is going to be a disaster in my opinion for a lot of fishermen on both sides.

I don't think it had much of a legal leg to stand on anyway. I think people just challenged it in the Supreme court and had the original pre-understanding agreement upheld. I.E there should be no crossover of fishing from the republic to the North.

malinheader

A kind of gentlemans agreement between to neighbouring durastrictions. Until it didn't suit some who looked to get it abolished for there own gains and the Irish government obliged.

donkeykong5

Dale Doback wrote: »

donkeykong5 wrote: »

Pop down to cobh sometime. Its pathetic ! And yes it does bloody happen pal. Pity credit like this cheering dressed up dummies off a ship isn't done to firefighters. Ambulance men. Police. Army..real men working daily protecting Ireland and its people.

The Army get huge cheers in Dublin airport when they return home from overseas service.

Which they 100% deserve. As do fire fighters . Ambulance crew. Police. Working everyday for the people .

malinheader

malinheader wrote: »

Does anyone know the reason why the voisnage agreement was scrapped by the supreme court..
The amount of hassle and aggro this is going to stir up is going to be a disaster in my opinion for a lot of fishermen on both sides.

The voisinage was deemed unlawful by the Supreme Court because, well, there was no law to underpin it.

The Government did introduce a bill to provide a legal basis for the voisinage between Ireland and the UK, but *now*, plot twist, the UK Government say they plan to leave the London Convention. That convention regulates fishing rights in Europe. The UK says it will still retain a voisinage agreement with Ireland.

Ireland is not introducing the Bill until it becomes clear whether the UK and Ireland would be legally entitled to have a voisinage agreement after Brexit, if the UK leaves the London Convention.

That's my understanding anyway.

old_aussie

Ireland is neutral.

So why have a navy in the first place?

Ireland just needs a coast guard.

Save a motza and sell off the navy, something that's just there for the "dress-up events".

n!ghtmancometh

Only disgrace are people like the OP denigrating the men and women of the naval service who risk life and limb in service of the country and it's citizens, for very little money. Recovering bodies from dangerous water, assisting in search and rescue missions and attempting to patrol Irish waters with the little resources the state affords them. Rescuing human beings from certain death in the med, no matter the political reasons why those human beings are there in the first place.

Disgraceful thread. This forum has truly gone to the dogs. I'm sure the vitriol from the OP and 'Spanish Eyes' and other usual suspects would not be uttered in the presence of any members of the Naval Service either.

Mal-Adjusted

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The voisinage was deemed unlawful by the Supreme Court because, well, there was no law to underpin it.

It's almost as if a gentleman's agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on...oh wait!

Mal-Adjusted

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

It's almost as if a gentleman's agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on...oh wait!

It's exactly the kind of legal decision we could see again if the Government don't regulate the transit of goods across the border in the event of a no-deal Brexit. A border would be a legal requirement under EU law and no court could tolerate some gentleman's agreement to ignore it.

It probably wouldn't be an Irish litigant asking for the imposition of a border, but an EU member state or business confederation.

donkeykong5

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

Only disgrace are people like the OP denigrating the men and women of the naval service who risk life and limb in service of the country and it's citizens, for very little money. Recovering bodies from dangerous water, assisting in search and rescue missions and attempting to patrol Irish waters with the little resources the state affords them. Rescuing human beings from certain death in the med, no matter the political reasons why those human beings are there in the first place.

Disgraceful thread. This forum has truly gone to the dogs. I'm sure the vitriol from the OP and 'Spanish Eyes' and other usual suspects would not be uttered in the presence of any members of the Naval Service either.

So we are not allowed to comment about the navy....is that what you are saying. ?

Sam Quentin

Geographically we 'should' have one of the greatest fisheries in the World, hence we should have one of the biggest navy's and coastguard... But wait ohhhhh wait we gave our rights away back in the 80s.
So damn right you get arrested if you illegality fish in what's left of our territory..

JupiterKid

I think our small navy do a great service. Easy for those who mock and knock it from the comfort of their chairs and sofas.

Aren’t Japanese trawlers now fishing in our waters? That’s crazy...

tuxy

JupiterKid wrote: »

Aren’t Japanese trawlers now fishing in our waters? That’s crazy...

Isn't that something that has been going on for decades? Not constantly but every couple of years a Japanese trawler would be detained and who knows how many went undetected.

Subcomandante Marcos

Jesus Christ this thread was like a ****ing dog whistle to all the racist freaks in boards.

liamo

Not to mention many rescue operations and major drugs and arms seizures.

It's a tough job at times (speaking from personal experience). Not as tough, however, as sitting at a keyboard slagging them off!

corner of hells wrote: »

Real men who recovered 40 or so bodies from the sea after the Air India disaster .

Atlantic Dawn

JupiterKid wrote: »

Aren’t Japanese trawlers now fishing in our waters? That’s crazy...

No they are not, well legally they are not, they are 200 miles outside, as are lots of Russian vessels, you can see them on AIS, right on the limit.

malinheader

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

It's almost as if a gentleman's agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on...oh wait!

It was working perfectly fine for over 50 years until it affected a few people who took the case to the courts where the judge scrapped the agreement and it is now going to affect a great many.
The naval service will have to do there jobs as it's the government - Europe who will call the shots on what action to be taken.

Atoms for Peace

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Jesus Christ this thread was like a ****ing dog whistle to all the racist freaks in boards.

How is it racist to question the actions of the navy? Especially if those actions have negative consequences for the population in general.

wexandproud

malinheader wrote: »

Does anyone know the reason why the voisnage agreement was scrapped by the supreme court..
The amount of hassle and aggro this is going to stir up is going to be a disaster in my opinion for a lot of fishermen on both sides.

i do , and its complicated . but basically the agreement was written between civil servants to allow northern ireland owned and operated vessels to come south mainly to fish herring off dunmore east . it did however allow other fisheries to take place inside our exclusive fishing waters .
some owners of welsh based vessels started to come here to fish . this was not covered by the agreement as they were not northern ireland owned and operated here so a group of boat owners challenged the agreement and after years of court cases they won the case
Basically , the judge said , because the agreement was never written into law the boats were not fishing legally . the agreement has never been challenged in the north so southern boats can go north .
when the agreement was in place an irish boat went to the south coast of england to fish and he was arrested but later released but told not to return as the agreement only covered N/Irl waters and not uk waters in general.
This was all done and dusted in court long and ever before brexit was voted on , the whole thing has been going on for years .
Its very strange that brexit was mentioned in the news report and also the fact that one boat owner was catholic and one protestant . I would not be at all surprised if this was a tactical move to get the whole thing back to court as there was a promise to legalize some sort of agreement and reinstate some sort of law which would all dual access . The minister backed down due to pressure from various fishing organisations

odyssey06

Dale Doback wrote: »

My point was...donkeykong5 was slating the Naval Service, so I countered that with asking him the question of what he has done for humanity.....that was my point and it was pretty clear.
They sailed under Operation PONTUS which was a humanitarian mission. Thats another one of my points.
The Naval Service leadership do have a say on what missions they deploy on....they have to, they are the S.M.E's. Its discussed at that level before Govt say yay or nay.
Are you sure of my points now?

The naval service wouldn't exist without the taxes paid by the likes of donkeykong5, and all the Irish people who are generating tax revenue through their work. Hard to rescue anyone or arrest anyone if you don't have a ship to sail in. The naval service are the point of a pyramid, the ordinary joe soaps are the rest. If they are sailing on a humanitarian missions, then in a sense, so are the joe soaps.

Are you seriously suggesting the Irish Naval service decided to sail to the Mediterranean OR arrest these NI fishermen, and then went to the Government to give the OK??? Then no, your point isn't clear.
I repeat - the government decides what missions the Naval service carries out. The Naval service might be unable to technical reasons etc to carry out a particular mission but the Naval service are not the originators.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Escorting fishermen out of UK waters.

Should the question not be “can you imagine if a Royal Navy ship impounded two Irish trawlers?”

The self righteous meltdown would be huge.

wexandproud

malinheader wrote: »

It was working perfectly fine for over 50 years until it affected a few people who took the case to the courts where the judge scrapped the agreement and it is now going to affect a great many.
The naval service will have to do there jobs as it's the government - Europe who will call the shots on what action to be taken.

the norther boys were making a big issue of the navy boarding the boats but irish boats are boarded every day by the uk fisheries patrols and there is never a word about it .
Couple of guys up your way were at the head of the challange along with a few from down here

Stephen15

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

Only disgrace are people like the OP denigrating the men and women of the naval service who risk life and limb in service of the country and it's citizens, for very little money. Recovering bodies from dangerous water, assisting in search and rescue missions and attempting to patrol Irish waters with the little resources the state affords them. Rescuing human beings from certain death in the med, no matter the political reasons why those human beings are there in the first place.

Disgraceful thread. This forum has truly gone to the dogs. I'm sure the vitriol from the OP and 'Spanish Eyes' and other usual suspects would not be uttered in the presence of any members of the Naval Service either.

I agree they are completely under resourced to patrol Irish Waters where they should not in the med. I have no problem with the people in the Navy either it's the politicians whose orders they are following I have a problem with.

The Irish Navy have no business being in the Med. They are not saving any lives they are facilitating people smugglers. The only authorities that should be there are the Libyan Coastguard to intercept smugglers boats rescue the migrants and repatriate them back to Libya.

Stephen15

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Jesus Christ this thread was like a ****ing dog whistle to all the racist freaks in boards.

What "racist freaks" I didn't know that being against illegal migration is a racist viewpoint

malinheader

wexandproud wrote: »

the norther boys were making a big issue of the navy boarding the boats but irish boats are boarded every day by the uk fisheries patrols and there is never a word about it .
Couple of guys up your way were at the head of the challange along with a few from down here

Aye all over mussel seed. Its leading to alot of tensions up in these parts, once the arresting starts it won't end nice.
Aw well at least there is plenty of tonnage in the country for anyone wanting to change over.And win the lottery you might even be able to afford kw s.

expectationlost

why hasn't defence forces put out a press release about detention of vessels (in Dundalk Bay) as it normally does http://www.military.ie/en/news-and-events/news/?pageNumber=1

wexandproud

malinheader wrote: »

Aye all over mussel seed. Its leading to alot of tensions up in these parts, once the arresting starts it won't end nice.
Aw well at least there is plenty of tonnage in the country for anyone wanting to change over.And win the lottery you might even be able to afford kw s.

yep . i was caught up in the middle of it .
if i won the lottery kw's be the last thing on my mind

whisky_galore

old_aussie wrote: »

Ireland is neutral.

So why have a navy in the first place?

Ireland just needs a coast guard.

Save a motza and sell off the navy, something that's just there for the "dress-up events".

We were never really 'neutral' in the strictest sense of the word.

The naval service is so underfunded and neglected that someone's going to get killed one of these days.