Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

SusieBlue

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Yep





How many of that 10k just made terrible decisions? The majority I would imagine. I'm not judging the ones who need it for medical reasons/rape etc. but I am judging the ones who were just plain irresponsible / stupid. Dont get me wrong, they should have their abortions if they want


Ps. I dont agree that all abortions should be funded by the tax payer. Abortions in emergency situations yes. Family planning, no.

And who made you the authority to decide whether an abortion is necessary or just a ‘terrible decision’?
What qualifies you to make such an assumption about another person, especially when you don’t and won’t have to live with the consequences?

You are in no position to judge. None. Whatsoever.
I wish you’d at least be honest about your position because you are literally using every Love Boats buzz word out there, yet expecting us all to believe you are in fact pro choice.

Kidchameleon

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm so tired of this abortion for contraception argument. Clearly anyone who thinks that's how it will be used has never had an abortion. It's an induced miscarriage, it's painful, messy, traumatic and physically gruelling, it's time consuming - you can forget about going anywhere for at least a day. It's probably the best advert for contraception there is, I can't see many women who were casual about contraception being blase about it after an abortion.

Abortion cannot be used for contraception. If we are in abortion territory, it is already too late for prevention. Honestly, I do not have figures for how many of those 10k were for family planning reasons but any studies I have read regarding reasons for abortion procedures, rape / incest / heath risks tend to be the least likely reasons for abortion. Family planning (which is a very broad term of course) is over 90% of the time cited as the reason for aborting. I'd love to see figures for Ireland but I dont expect we will get them any time soon.


https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/pubs/psrh/full/3711005.pdf


https://www.contraceptionjournal.org/article/S0010-7824(17)30188-9/fulltext#s0040

Kidchameleon

SusieBlue wrote: »

And who made you the authority to decide whether an abortion is necessary or just a ‘terrible decision’?
What qualifies you to make such an assumption about another person, especially when you don’t and won’t have to live with the consequences?

I can have an opinion about whomever I want, as can you...

SusieBlue wrote: »

You are in no position to judge. None. Whatsoever.

Why not? Am I not free to have an opinion?

SusieBlue wrote: »

I wish you’d at least be honest about your position because you are literally using every Love Boats buzz word out there, yet expecting us all to believe you are in fact pro choice.

I'm probably more pro choice than yourself. Can I ask you, do you feel abortions should be allowed up until 40 weeks?

amcalester

In order to say the abortion rate has trebled we Must first have established what the rate was.

Using the number of women who travelled to the UK as a base doesn’t include all those who bought the abortion pills on-line.

I’d also wonder if the 10K figure includes women who were proscribed the pills as a result of a missed miscarriage.

If the UK is anything to go by we’ll probably see an “increase” for the first few years before it plateaus before possibly declining.

smacl

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And you think someone who is "plainly irresponsible/stupid" should become a parent due to being "plainly irresponsible/stupid"???

wow.

How this appears to me is forced parenthood and public humiliation as punishment for having sex without the permission of the church or the pro-life brigade. The attitude that built the mother and baby homes in this country still seems to be alive and well in some dark and dingy corners of our society.

And they reckon atheists will go to hell... :rolleyes:

SusieBlue

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I can have an opinion about whomever I want, as can you...





Why not? Am I not free to have an opinion?






I'm probably more pro choice than yourself. Can I ask you, do you feel abortions should be allowed up until 40 weeks?

I never said you couldn’t have an opinion, I said you were in no position to make a decision on behalf of anyone else.
Your right to hold an opinion ends at the point when that ‘opinion’ restricts the medical care of other people.
You thinking something is a ‘terrible decision’ is not a legitimate reason to take a choice away from someone else.

You are absolutely not more pro-choice than me, so pull the other one. I’m not even going to go down that rabbit hole.

Also what’s with the selective quoting?

Igotadose

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Abortion cannot be used for contraception. If we are in abortion territory, it is already too late for prevention. Honestly, I do not have figures for how many of those 10k were for family planning reasons but any studies I have read regarding reasons for abortion procedures, rape / incest / heath risks tend to be the least likely reasons for abortion. Family planning (which is a very broad term of course) is over 90% of the time cited as the reason for aborting. I'd love to see figures for Ireland but I dont expect we will get them any time soon.


https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/pubs/psrh/full/3711005.pdf


https://www.contraceptionjournal.org/article/S0010-7824(17)30188-9/fulltext#s0040

10k is speculation at this point. Might be more. Might be less.

Why does a woman need a reason at all for requesting an abortion? If she wants one, she should have it.

https://shoutyourabortion.com/

Kidchameleon

SusieBlue wrote: »

I never said you couldn’t have an opinion, I said you were in no position to make a decision on behalf of anyone else.
Your right to hold an opinion ends at the point when that ‘opinion’ restricts the medical care of other people.
You thinking something is a ‘terrible decision’ is not a legitimate reason to take a choice away from someone else.

You are absolutely not more pro-choice than me, so pull the other one. I’m not even going to go down that rabbit hole.

Also what’s with the selective quoting?

I agree with you, I am pro choice. One can be pro choice and not like abortion. The two are not mutually exclusive.


Will you answer this question? You are pro choice, yes? Do you think abortions are great fun? Our opinions are not really that different.

Hotblack Desiato

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Family planning (which is a very broad term of course) is over 90% of the time cited as the reason for aborting.

So what?

Every form of contraception has a failure rate.

Kidchameleon

Igotadose wrote: »

10k is speculation at this point. Might be more. Might be less.

Why does a woman need a reason at all for requesting an abortion? If she wants one, she should have it.

https://shoutyourabortion.com/

I never said a woman needs a reason. I was commenting on reasons that were already given by women in studies. By the way, I voted to allow women to have abortions up to 12 weeks without reason. I believe women should be allowed to have abortions up to 40 weeks without reason.

Hotblack Desiato

Kidchameleon wrote: »

The point I was making is that everything we currently know tells us that. New technologies might one day show us we are wrong however.

It is frankly ridiculous to think that consciousness could possibly exist without brain activity. Just because we can't prove something impossible doesn't mean believing in it is not a stupid idea (cf. god.)

Like what?

Like the medically unnecessary 3 day wait

Like 14 years in prison if the doctor gets the dates slightly wrong, hence the medically unnecessary ultrasounds if there's any doubt about dates.

Hotblack Desiato

Kidchameleon wrote: »

By the way, I voted to allow women to have abortions up to 12 weeks without reason.

Not unless you're a TD or senator, you didn't. We didn't vote on the legislation, just on repeal.

I believe women should be allowed to have abortions up to 40 weeks without reason.

Seems a case of "let's see how extreme I can be in order to make pro-choice look silly / monstrous".

The only poster who claimed that position before turned out to be an utter fraud.

Kidchameleon

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It is frankly ridiculous to think that consciousness could possibly exist without brain activity. Just because we can't prove something impossible doesn't mean believing in it is not a stupid idea (cf. god.)




Like the medically unnecessary 3 day wait

Like 14 years in prison if the doctor gets the dates slightly wrong, hence the medically unnecessary ultrasounds if there's any doubt about dates.

When did I say consciousness could exist without brain activity? I said we may in the future be able to detect activity that we currently cannot.

Kidchameleon

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So what?

Every form of contraception has a failure rate.

If you are responsible and your contraception fails, get an abortion. If you are irresponsible and you get pregnant, get an abortion. Whats the problem exactly?

smacl

Kidchameleon wrote: »

If you are responsible and your contraception fails, get an abortion. If you are irresponsible and you get pregnant, get an abortion. Whats the problem exactly?

Responsible to whom exactly?

Kidchameleon

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Not unless you're a TD or senator, you didn't. We didn't vote on the legislation, just on repeal.

Semantics, you know what I mean.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Seems a case of "let's see how extreme I can be in order to make pro-choice look silly / monstrous".

The only poster who claimed that position before turned out to be an utter fraud.

Will you answer two questions honestly please? Do you beleive a woman should be able to get an abortion at 24 weeks? Do you beleive a woman should be able to get an abortion at 40 weeks?


I believe yes is the answer to both of these questions. What is your opinion? I see no difference between a 24 week pregnancy and a 40 week one.

Kidchameleon

smacl wrote: »

Responsible to whom exactly?

I mean "acting responsibly" ie. not being responsible to anyone in particular other than yourself.

robarmstrong

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I see no difference between a 24 week pregnancy and a 40 week one.

Foetal viability being a standout difference here that I have no idea how you missed.

A 24 week pregnancy is not full term. 37-40 weeks is generally considered full term.

Hotblack Desiato

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Will you answer two questions honestly please? Do you beleive a woman should be able to get an abortion at 24 weeks? Do you beleive a woman should be able to get an abortion at 40 weeks?


I believe yes is the answer to both of these questions. What is your opinion? I see no difference between a 24 week pregnancy and a 40 week one.

No and no - assuming the foetus is viable and not disabled it should be delivered and placed in foster care until the woman can decide whether to care for it or place it for adoption. Either way, the pregnancy is ended.

Kidchameleon

robarmstrong wrote: »

Foetal viability being a standout difference here that I have no idea how you missed.

A 24 week pregnancy is not full term. 37-40 weeks is generally considered full term.

Fetal viability at 24 weeks is pretty good and is improving all the time.

Kidchameleon

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

No and no - assuming the foetus is viable and not disabled it should be delivered and placed in foster care until the woman can decide whether to care for it or place it for adoption. Either way, the pregnancy is ended.

Well here we disagree. I believe that while the fetus/baby is in the woman's body, the fetus/baby is part of the woman's body. I believe in complete bodily autonomy, her body, her choice. It appears I am more pro choice than yourself. Thanks for your honesty in answering the question.

amcalester

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Well here we disagree. I believe that while the fetus/baby is in the woman's body, the fetus/baby is part of the woman's body. I believe in complete bodily autonomy, her body, her choice. It appears I am more pro choice than yourself. Thanks for your honesty in answering the question.

I believe in abortions up to 976 weeks.

robarmstrong

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Fetal viability at 24 weeks is pretty good and is improving all the time.

No, it isn't "pretty good", only 20-35% of babies born at 24 weeks survive.

You very clearly do not know much about this given on how you're discussing this.

smacl

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I mean "acting responsibly" ie. not being responsible to anyone in particular other than yourself.

Hmmm. Responsible for what? Without intending any pun, the fact that the women is often left solely responsible for holding the potential baby (so to speak) in no way implies she is solely responsible for being pregnant. You may want to qualify and rethink what you mean by irresponsible in this context. i.e. think about who you're pointing the finger at and why.

Kidchameleon

robarmstrong wrote: »

No, it isn't "pretty good", only 20-35% of babies born at 24 weeks survive.

You very clearly do not know much about this given on how you're discussing this.

Well done on your quick Googling there, we can all do it. 35% is pretty good in my opinion. It goes up to 50% at 25 weeks (that's just one week later). 70% at 26 weeks and 90% beyond that. If I was in a situation where my wife delivered premature, I would feel pretty confident of the baby's survival but that is just me. It is getting better year on year also. In the not too distant future, it will be a solid 100% at 24 weeks.


On a side note, babies have been known to survive at 22/21 weeks.

Kidchameleon

smacl wrote: »

Hmmm. Responsible for what? Without intending any pun, the fact that the women is often left solely responsible for holding the potential baby (so to speak) in no way implies she is solely responsible for being pregnant. You may want to qualify and rethink what you mean by irresponsible in this context. i.e. think about who you're pointing the finger at and why.

Anyone who is an adult is responsible for their own actions and the consequences thereof. So in a situation where two consenting adults are having sexual intercourse, both are equally responsible should a pregnancy develop.

Bannasidhe

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Anyone who is an adult is responsible for their own actions and the consequences thereof. So in a situation where two consenting adults are having sexual intercourse, both are equally responsible should a pregnancy develop.

But only one of them is physically responsible. The other could simply disappear if they wished. Or be 'responsible' by paying a few quid every week or so.
Not very equal.

robarmstrong

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Well done on your quick Googling there, we can all do it. 35% is pretty good in my opinion. It goes up to 50% at 25 weeks (that's just one week later). 70% at 26 weeks and 90% beyond that. If I was in a situation where my wife delivered premature, I would feel pretty confident of the baby's survival but that is just me. It is getting better year on year also. In the not too distant future, it will be a solid 100% at 24 weeks.


On a side note, babies have been known to survive at 22/21 weeks.

Your opinion does not qualify it as “pretty good”.

Actual medical professionals will advise that no, it’s not a “pretty good” chance. It’s between 20-35% which is backed by numerous studies and extensive research. I was the father in that situation, my child did not make it, despite your “pretty good” odds at them surviving.

You genuinely need to take a step back and read what you are saying, you are coming across as someone who’s not doing an ounce of research or knowledge collecting on a topic such as this.

I’m well aware that the survival rate goes from 20-35%, I’m very glad to see that you can read and understand it jumps up to around the low 50 mark just a week later.

You’ve come into this thread as a “pro-choice voter” yet you’ve flung mud at “irresponsible women”, you’ve made some absolute atrocious statements with little or no substance behind them (which are a dead giveaway you’ve not an inkling of what you’re on about) and you spout out you don’t agree with abortion. I am also against abortion, I think it is cruel, it is harsh and it is an unnecessary thing to have in our world today but let me tell you something, my opinions and feelings towards abortion went out the window when the 8th was in place and my partner was forced to miscarry after miscarry after miscarry and was denied the dignity of ending a doomed pregnancy on her own terms because of outdated cretinous individuals who cared more about what was growing inside her than her, herself.

You won’t get anyone more pro-life than me, at least without hitting the levels of being an incomprehensible fanatic who throws terms like “murder”, “baby-killer” etc around.

Leave the thread, do your research, read your posts after you’ve educated yourself. Then maybe it’ll be a coherent discussion.

smacl

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Anyone who is an adult is responsible for their own actions and the consequences thereof. So in a situation where two consenting adults are having sexual intercourse, both are equally responsible should a pregnancy develop.

No doubt, but the vast weight of trauma and burden in dealing with an unwanted pregnancy is felt by women, so as a man I'd be extremely cautious of referring to women as being the irresponsible ones here. In my honestly held opinion, those who would seek to stigmatise abortion or moralise over women with an unwanted pregnancy need to take a long hard think about what it means to be a decent human being. I'd guess that very many more women than you'd imagine have found themselves in this position, certainly quite a few of my closer friends. It is already more than hard enough.

Kidchameleon

robarmstrong wrote: »

Your opinion does not qualify it as “pretty good”.

Actual medical professionals will advise that no, it’s not a “pretty good” chance. It’s between 20-35% which is backed by numerous studies and extensive research. I was the father in that situation, my child did not make it, despite your “pretty good” odds at them surviving.

You genuinely need to take a step back and read what you are saying, you are coming across as someone who’s not doing an ounce of research or knowledge collecting on a topic such as this.

I’m well aware that the survival rate goes from 20-35%, I’m very glad to see that you can read and understand it jumps up to around the low 50 mark just a week later.

You’ve come into this thread as a “pro-choice voter” yet you’ve flung mud at “irresponsible women”, you’ve made some absolute atrocious statements with little or no substance behind them (which are a dead giveaway you’ve not an inkling of what you’re on about) and you spout out you don’t agree with abortion. I am also against abortion, I think it is cruel, it is harsh and it is an unnecessary thing to have in our world today but let me tell you something, my opinions and feelings towards abortion went out the window when the 8th was in place and my partner was forced to miscarry after miscarry after miscarry and was denied the dignity of ending a doomed pregnancy on her own terms because of outdated cretinous individuals who cared more about what was growing inside her than her, herself.

You won’t get anyone more pro-life than me, at least without hitting the levels of being an incomprehensible fanatic who throws terms like “murder”, “baby-killer” etc around.

Leave the thread, do your research, read your posts after you’ve educated yourself. Then maybe it’ll be a coherent discussion.

You have misrepresented me to quite an extent there.

I am very sorry for your loss but the tragic truth is that your child would have stood a much greater chance of survival had he or she been born say, 5 years from now. Your loss no doubt affects your view of what is a "pretty good" chance of survival.

In my familys case, I have one neice that is now thriving at 13 years old who was born 1 day into the 24th week. I have another neice who sadly passed at 1 week old having been born at 30 weeks. I guess my "pretty good" assesment is subjective. If I had a 20% chance of winning the lottery Id buy a ticket every week - pretty good odds!