Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

aloyisious

end of the road wrote: »

they were both still small in the great scheme of protests.

100 people standing by the pedestrian crossing lights at the junction of Merrion Sq and Mount St Lower across from the hospital a small group? It's a good thing Irish people don't have a habit of waiting for the green man light before crossing roads.

end of the road

DubInMeath wrote: »

Again not just a tiny amount of people on the internet looking for exclusion zones as your claiming.

The numbers are larger for exclusion zones, the protesters outside hospitals appear to be shipped in, similar to the members of protest against those marching for exclusion zones.

Also going by your logic of hospitals and doctor surgeries being the correct place to protest, perhaps churches, fake pregnancy advice centres and the iona offices should be places to protest for the introduction of exclusion zones.

well, they can certainly protest away at those places, however it isn't churches and iona etc calling for a protest bann, to my knowledge.

uptherebels

end of the road wrote: »

one does not need to specifically go to the dail to highlight an issue. going there may certainly help, but it's not obligatory or even specifically necessary.
only protesters themselves know why they protest where they protest unless they specifically tell us why, and if they are protesting against say, abortion, then one of the places they are going to protest outside is where they take place, generally dedicated abortion clinics, hence ireland's lack of such protests or at least signifficant ones due to the lack of them here.
the 1 or 2 protests here in ireland against abortion since the legislation was introduced, have been so tiny that it's not surprising it seems to be a non-issue outside a tiny amount of people, mainly on the internet, at least from what i can see.

You failed to mention which others protests have attempted to impede access to healthcare!!
If you can't think of any then say so.
If it was a non issue, then there wouldn't be talk of exclusion zones in the first place.
No they don't need to go to the dail but if they were Interested in changing the legislation that is where they would be. But like we are all aware, it isn't about the legislation. It's about impeding access

uptherebels

end of the road wrote: »

one does not need to specifically go to the dail to highlight an issue. going there may certainly help, but it's not obligatory or even specifically necessary.
only protesters themselves know why they protest where they protest unless they specifically tell us why, and if they are protesting against say, abortion, then one of the places they are going to protest outside is where they take place, generally dedicated abortion clinics, hence ireland's lack of such protests or at least signifficant ones due to the lack of them here.
the 1 or 2 protests here in ireland against abortion since the legislation was introduced, have been so tiny that it's not surprising it seems to be a non-issue outside a tiny amount of people, mainly on the internet, at least from what i can see.

You failed to mention which others protests have attempted to impede access to healthcare!!
If you can't think of any then say so.
If it was a non issue, then there wouldn't be talk of exclusion zones in the first place.
No they don't need to go to the dail but if they were Interested in changing the legislation that is where they would be. But like we are all aware, it isn't about the legislation. It's about impeding access

end of the road

uptherebels wrote: »

You failed to mention which others protests have attempted to impede access to healthcare!!
If you can't think of any then say so.

well yes obviously i don't know of any such protests intending to impeed any access to health care, as i would have mentioned them if i did.

uptherebels wrote: »

If it was a non issue, then there wouldn't be talk of exclusion zones in the first place.

i would tend to disagree.
i think there would be talk of them regardless, because of the fact opposition to abortion exists in the first place.

uptherebels wrote: »

No they don't need to go to the dail but if they were Interested in changing the legislation that is where they would be.

again not necessarily, it's highlighting the issue which i would expect is their priority and once that is done, then job done.
i would assume that if they do feel a protest at the dail is worth while, then they will do it, but i would only expect those involved will know what will work for them, i certainly don't anyway.

uptherebels wrote: »

But like we are all aware, it isn't about the legislation. It's about impeding access

well no, to be fair we aren't all aware what their protests are about.
we can certainly speculate as to what they may be about, but whatever about you, i certainly don't know what they may or may not be about other then they have a disagreement with abortion in whatever form their disagreement may be.
so i could certainly not say with any certainty what their motives are or aren't because i don't know.

aloyisious

end of the road wrote: »

well no, to be fair we aren't all aware what their protests are about.
we can certainly speculate as to what they may be about, but whatever about you, i certainly don't know what they may or may not be about other then they have a disagreement with abortion in whatever form their disagreement may be.
so i could certainly not say with any certainty what their motives are or aren't because i don't know.

Can you translate for us what you mean by the above?

Bannasidhe

aloyisious wrote: »

Can you translate for us what you mean by the above?

Google translate say:
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

well, they can certainly protest away at those places, however it isn't churches and iona etc calling for a protest bann, to my knowledge.

Iona especially are digging in about exclusion zones not being put in place, I'd imagine that either they would change tack if protesting occurred at their office or members homes, or they would try and play the martyr card for a while.

end of the road

aloyisious wrote: »

Can you translate for us what you mean by the above?

well as said, apart from a disagreement with abortion in whichever form their disagreement takes, i'm suggesting to the poster i replied to that while he may believe he has the answer as to what their motive other then that may be, unless they specifically tell us that his view is their motive, we don't really know for sure and probably can only speculate, that i certainly don't know any other motives they have apart from they have a disagreement with abortion, whether they want it to be more restricted, or in the very odd case banned outright.

DubInMeath wrote: »

Iona especially are digging in about exclusion zones not being put in place, I'd imagine that either they would change tack if protesting occurred at their office or members homes, or they would try and play the martyr card for a while.

iona may do whatever, or not, i certainly don't know either way.

aloyisious

end of the road wrote: »

well as said, apart from a disagreement with abortion in whichever form their disagreement takes, i'm suggesting to the poster i replied to that while he may believe he has the answer as to what their motive other then that may be, unless they specifically tell us that his view is their motive, we don't really know for sure and probably can only speculate, that i certainly don't know any other motives they have apart from they have a disagreement with abortion.

Well, that they have a disagreement with abortion is a cert. As for quibbling about whether they are split on the legal provision of abortion within Irish healthcare as it stands, it's not worth the effort. They are simply faced with that fact and some refuse to accept it and the referendum result, while those others who do accept it do so because they don't want to step outside the bounds of the law. Do you actually think anyone thinks the anti-abortion protestors have an ulterior secret motive beyond their stated opposition to abortion or is that just speculation on your part?

end of the road

aloyisious wrote: »

Well, that they have a disagreement with abortion is a cert. As for quibbling about whether they are split on the legal provision of abortion within Irish healthcare as it stands, it's not worth the effort. They are simply faced with that fact and some refuse to accept it and the referendum result, while those others who do accept it do so because they don't want to step outside the bounds of the law. Do you actually think anyone thinks the anti-abortion protestors have an ulterior secret motive beyond their stated opposition to abortion or is that just speculation on your part?

well a couple of posters have expressed a view that the intent of the individuals is to specifically impeed access to the service, rather then specifically protesting against abortion.

uptherebels

end of the road wrote: »

well a couple of posters have expressed a view that the intent of the individuals is to specifically impeed access to the service, rather then specifically protesting against abortion.

Which is evident by them concentrating on the places of access and not on the places of legislative change. As has been explained to you already.

aloyisious

end of the road wrote: »

well a couple of posters have expressed a view that the intent of the individuals is to specifically impeed access to the service, rather then specifically protesting against abortion.

I'll leave it to the people you say are of the opinion that the intent of the anti-abortion protestors is to impede access to the service [healthcare for women in respect of pregnancies] rather than impeding access to abortion facilities [healthcare for women in respect of pregnancies] to put their positions more clear for you if they choose.

ohnonotgmail

end of the road wrote: »

well a couple of posters have expressed a view that the intent of the individuals is to specifically impeed access to the service, rather then specifically protesting against abortion.

they are using their fake posters to prey on the emotional state of women who require urgent healthcare. They care more for the fake babies on their posters than women who need healthcare. Your doubletalk on this is nonsense.

end of the road

uptherebels wrote: »

Which is evident by them concentrating on the places of access and not on the places of legislative change. As has been explained to you already.

it is evident in your view.
it is not evident in my view.
i don't believe that simply protesting at another building rather then another building is enough to make something evident.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they are using their fake posters to prey on the emotional state of women who require urgent healthcare. They care more for the fake babies on their posters than women who need healthcare. Your doubletalk on this is nonsense.

in your opinion.
ultimately, unless they specifically tell us that they don't care about the women involved and only the babies, then i am going to take it that they do care about both, as i haven't saw anything myself to show otherwise.
if you believe the images are fake, i expect you can make a complaint to the relevant agency. i presume we have an advertising standards type agency here in ireland, but they may be called something different or not, i do not know.

ohnonotgmail

end of the road wrote: »

in your opinion.
ultimately, unless they specifically tell us that they don't care about the women involved and only the babies, then i am going to take it that they do care about both, as i haven't saw anything myself to show otherwise.

Well of course you do. You support what they are doing.

end of the road wrote: »

if you believe the images are fake, i expect you can make a complaint to the relevant agency. i presume we have an advertising standards type agency here in ireland, but they may be called something different or not, i do not know.

you expect wrong. I can walk the streets with placards carrying whatever lies i want and there is nothing that anybody can do about it.

end of the road

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Well of course you do. You support what they are doing.



you expect wrong. I can walk the streets with placards carrying whatever lies i want and there is nothing that anybody can do about it.

i support their right to be able to do it rather then them actually doing it.

ohnonotgmail

end of the road wrote: »

i support their right to be able to do it rather then them actually doing it.

Given that what they are doing is harassing women in crisis it is no surprise that you support their right to do it.

Hotblack Desiato

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they are using their fake posters to prey on the emotional state of women who require urgent healthcare. They care more for the fake babies on their posters than women who need healthcare. Your doubletalk on this is nonsense.

Adding additional trauma to those dealing with miscarriage, stillbirth, foetal defects, and infertility, among the many other reasons people attend maternity hospitals in less than happy circumstances, is just fine according to some, who are only concerned about the "free speech" of these protesters and not any kind of human decency....

end of the road

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Given that what they are doing is harassing women in crisis it is no surprise that you support their right to do it.

and yet, if it is harassment, we would have heard of multiple arrests at the couple of protests that have happened, as harassment is already a crime to the best of my knowledge.
to the best of my knowledge, there haven't been any, which would suggest to me that they are avoiding doing anything that could be reasonably considered harassment or that is actually already, or even could ever be considered as such.
if by all means you are aware of harassment taking place, then you should report it to the gardai, who i expect will have an obligation to investigate it, as harassment is very serious. that goes for anybody who witnesses such taking place.

ohnonotgmail

end of the road wrote: »

and yet, if it is harassment, we would have heard of multiple arrests at the couple of protests that have happened, as harassment is already a crime to the best of my knowledge.
to the best of my knowledge, there haven't been any, which would suggest to me that they are avoiding doing anything that could be reasonably considered harassment or that is actually already, or even could ever be considered as such.
if by all means you are aware of harassment taking place, then you should report it to the gardai, who i expect will have an obligation to investigate it, as harassment is very serious. that goes for anybody who witnesses such taking place.

legal harassment requires multiple instances so the gardai can do nothing. How many woman will go back for a repeat visit after seeing the lies they print on their placards? perhaps legally harassment is not the correct word to use but what they are doing is despicable and directly targeted at women in crisis. But you dont care about that. You only care about babies that dont exist.

smacl

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

legal harassment requires multiple instances so the gardai can do nothing. How many woman will go back for a repeat visit after seeing the lies they print on their placards? perhaps legally harassment is not the correct word to use but what they are doing is despicable and directly targeted at women in crisis. But you dont care about that. You only care about babies that dont exist.

I'm genuinely sceptical about how many of these protesters actually give a damn about babies as opposed to trying to bully an ultra-conservative anti-egalitarian ethos onto our societies which would treat women as second class citizens. People with a genuine concern for babies would be spending their time in so many other ways as we live on a planet with wars and famine where many babies die needlessly all the time. I don't for a moment believe that those pushing an anti-abortion agenda honestly care about the welfare of babies. They care about those who would undermine their right to arbitrarily tell others what they can and cannot do.

Just my opinion, but the majority of the people of Ireland have drawn a similar conclusion and seek first and foremost to look after the best interests of vulnerable women without judging them.

ohnonotgmail

smacl wrote: »

I'm genuinely sceptical about how many of these protesters actually give a damn about babies as opposed to trying to bully an ultra-conservative anti-egalitarian ethos onto our societies which would treat women as second class citizens. People with a genuine concern for babies would be spending their time in so many other ways as we live on a planet with wars and famine where many babies die needlessly all the time. I don't for a moment believe that those pushing an anti-abortion agenda honestly care about the welfare of babies. They care about those who would undermine their right to arbitrarily tell others what they can and cannot do.

Just my opinion, but the majority of the people of Ireland have drawn a similar conclusion and seek first and foremost to look after the best interests of vulnerable women without judging them.

absolutely correct.

end of the road

smacl wrote: »

I'm genuinely sceptical about how many of these protesters actually give a damn about babies as opposed to trying to bully an ultra-conservative anti-egalitarian ethos onto our societies which would treat women as second class citizens. People with a genuine concern for babies would be spending their time in so many other ways as we live on a planet with wars and famine where many babies die needlessly all the time. I don't for a moment believe that those pushing an anti-abortion agenda honestly care about the welfare of babies. They care about those who would undermine their right to arbitrarily tell others what they can and cannot do.

Just my opinion, but the majority of the people of Ireland have drawn a similar conclusion and seek first and foremost to look after the best interests of vulnerable women without judging them.

people with a genuine concern for babies either unborn or born, can do many possible things from the very little to the very big, there is no one size all fits approach, just like many issues, simply caring about what happens to them is doing something.
lots of people care about many issues, but due to work and other constraints may not have time in which to specifically focus on all or any of the issues they may care about, however that doesn't mean they care less or even not at all, but rather they have their own lives and things they have to give their time to, with trying to do something about issues they care about, having to unfortunately come second or even remain out of their focus.
people who disagree with unrestricted abortion come in many shapes, sizes, and even view points in relation to many issues.
some will be conservative on some or all issues, some will be centrist to leftist such as myself, some indeed may believe women are and should be second class citizens however i would expect they are in a tiny minority, or at least i would hope so.

ohnonotgmail

end of the road wrote: »

people with a genuine concern for babies either unborn or born, can do many possible things from the very little to the very big, there is no one size all fits approach, just like many issues, simply caring about what happens to them is doing something.
lots of people care about many issues, but due to work and other constraints may not have time in which to specifically focus on all or any of the issues they may care about, however that doesn't mean they care less or even not at all, but rather they have their own lives and things they have to give their time to, with trying to do something about issues they care about, having to unfortunately come second or even remain out of their focus.
people who disagree with unrestricted abortion come in many shapes, sizes, and even view points in relation to many issues.
some will be conservative on some or all issues, some will be centrist to leftist such as myself, some indeed may believe women are and should be second class citizens however i would expect they are in a tiny minority, or at least i would hope so.

they seem to have plenty of time to stand outside healthcare facilities waving placards telling lies. if they really cared about children they could spend that time helping the children that already exist. but they don't.

end of the road

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they seem to have plenty of time to stand outside healthcare facilities waving placards telling lies. if they really cared about children they could spend that time helping the children that already exist. but they don't.

they could be on annual leave, they could work shift work, everyone's ability to find time to do something will be different i guess.
people will spend their time doing something about an issue they care about in a way they feel is the most productive i would imagine.

ohnonotgmail

end of the road wrote: »

they could be on annual leave, they could work shift work, everyone's ability to find time to do something will be different i guess.
people will spend their time doing something about an issue they care about in a way they feel is the most productive i would imagine.

thank you for helping me make my point

smacl

end of the road wrote: »

people with a genuine concern for babies either unborn or born, can do many possible things from the very little to the very big, there is no one size all fits approach, just like many issues, simply caring about what happens to them is doing something.

Thing is, I don't actually believe that many of those pushing a pro-life agenda do care about babies. I think they care solely about pushing their entirely unpleasant agenda.

end of the road

smacl wrote: »

Thing is, I don't actually believe that many of those pushing a pro-life agenda do care about babies. I think they care solely about pushing their entirely unpleasant agenda.

it is likely yes that there are a small number who are of that exact position, however unless they specifically admit to it, we are never going to truely know they are of that position, or even the numbers involved.
certainly a minority of people latching on to an issue to push an agenda is nothing new and is not unique to abortion.

ohnonotgmail

end of the road wrote: »

it is likely yes that there are a small number who are of that exact position, however unless they specifically admit to it, we are never going to truely know they are of that position, or even the numbers involved.
certainly a minority of people latching on to an issue to push an agenda is nothing new and is not unique to abortion.

what makes you think it is only a small number given the objection of the religious right to abortion?

eviltwin

end of the road wrote: »

it is likely yes that there are a small number who are of that exact position, however unless they specifically admit to it, we are never going to truely know they are of that position, or even the numbers involved.
certainly a minority of people latching on to an issue to push an agenda is nothing new and is not unique to abortion.

What's their objective then? Do you think they expect to change a woman's mind? Seems a bit of a risk trying to encourage a change of mind as she's walking into her appointment. And wouldn't they have a greater chance of success if the message was a bit kinder? Pictures of foetuses and "abortion is murder" placards don't exactly scream care and support.

end of the road

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what makes you think it is only a small number given the objection of the religious right to abortion?

we were talking about individuals jumping on a protest to push another agenda.
it was they who i was suggesting may be a minority, and that it isn't something unique to abortion.

eviltwin wrote: »

What's their objective then? Do you think they expect to change a woman's mind? Seems a bit of a risk trying to encourage a change of mind as she's walking into her appointment. And wouldn't they have a greater chance of success if the message was a bit kinder? Pictures of foetuses and "abortion is murder" placards don't exactly scream care and support.

i would expect they are trying to encourage one to seek an alternative to ending the life of their unborn yes.
ultimately i am not going to be in a position to know as to whether their messages and information will be effective or not, only they can know that i would expect.
i also couldn't say with any sort of certainty whether they would or wouldn't have any success by doing something different.

ohnonotgmail

end of the road wrote: »

we were talking about individuals jumping on a protest to push another agenda.
it was they who i was suggesting may be a minority, and that it isn't something unique to abortion.

protesting outside medical facilities does tend to be a uniquely anti-abortion thing.

robindch

end of the road wrote: »

people will spend their time doing something about an issue they care about in a way they feel is the most productive i would imagine.

They could also be doing it because, like praying, it's essentially a very simple activity - all you've to do is stand around the place without actually contributing anything useful to the common good.

end of the road

robindch wrote: »

They could also be doing it because, like praying, it's essentially a very simple activity - all you've to do is stand around the place without actually contributing anything useful to the common good.

some may be doing it for that reason, again i'm personally not going to know either way.
i would think that for those who do do it, praying doesn't have to specifically contribute anything to the common good, but rather give comfort to those who do it who get whatever they get from it, it's not something i do nor have interest in doing given i don't have a religious bone in my body, but i would speculate that giving comfort and a sense of purpose may be what prayers get from praying to their god or gods.

smacl

end of the road wrote: »

some may be doing it for that reason, again i'm personally not going to know either way.
i would think that for those who do do it, praying doesn't have to specifically contribute anything to the common good, but rather give comfort to those who do it who get whatever they get from it, it's not something i do nor have interest in doing given i don't have a religious bone in my body, but i would speculate that giving comfort and a sense of purpose may be what prayers get from praying to their god or gods.

What the above implies is that when someone says they're "praying for you" they're really just doing something for themselves. The problem comes where prayer is confused with taking positive action. It's a bit like homeopathy, harmless until you start using it as an alternative to necessary medical intervention.

end of the road

smacl wrote: »

What the above implies is that when someone says they're "praying for you" they're really just doing something for themselves. The problem comes where prayer is confused with taking positive action. It's a bit like homeopathy, harmless until you start using it as an alternative to necessary medical intervention.

yes, i would agree, certainly with your comparison to homeopathy.
i couldn't agree or disagree with the first part as i don't know if someone who says they will pray for me would actually be doing it for me or themselves unless they specifically tell me, i would just have to take their word for it unless i receive something to show otherwise.

AllForIt

smacl wrote: »

Thing is, I don't actually believe that many of those pushing a pro-life agenda do care about babies. I think they care solely about pushing their entirely unpleasant agenda.

Though this wouldn't be exclusive to this topic. For example the Left care about minorities, especially of late LGBT issues. Now, do they really care, or as I think, they're more motivated to going after a certain type of person who isn't in a minority.

smacl

AllForIt wrote: »

Though this wouldn't be exclusive to this topic. For example the Left care about minorities, especially of late LGBT issues. Now, do they really care, or as I think, they're more motivated to going after a certain type of person who isn't in a minority.

More about intolerance to all sorts of discrimination and bullying that have been endemic in our society for generations. I do care about these things having suffered them and not wanting my kids to suffer them.

AllForIt

smacl wrote: »

More about intolerance to all sorts of discrimination and bullying that have been endemic in our society for generations. I do care about these things having suffered them and not wanting my kids to suffer them.

So you admit then that some of the protesters do care about the unborn above any other personal religious/political objective.

edit: I was only making an analogy by the way.

Bannasidhe

AllForIt wrote: »

Though this wouldn't be exclusive to this topic. For example the Left care about minorities, especially of late LGBT issues. Now, do they really care, or as I think, they're more motivated to going after a certain type of person who isn't in a minority.

How is looking for people who are part of a minority to be treated the same as a person who is part of a majority constitute "going after a certain type of person who isn't in a minority"?

Is equal treatment finite?
Does extending rights to a minority diminish the amount of those rights the majority has?

Salary Negotiator

Bannasidhe wrote: »

How is looking for people who are part of a minority to be treated the same as a person who is part of a majority constitute "going after a certain type of person who isn't in a minority"?

Is equal treatment finite?
Does extending rights to a minority diminish the amount of those rights the majority has?

Serious victim complex on the part of the oppressors.

ancapailldorcha

smacl wrote: »

Thing is, I don't actually believe that many of those pushing a pro-life agenda do care about babies. I think they care solely about pushing their entirely unpleasant agenda.

Exactly what caused me to move away from the anti-choice side. It became patently obvious to me that anyone who considered themselves "pro-life" but wasn't advocating for better support for hard-up mothers and their children was just arguing disingenuously.

smacl

AllForIt wrote: »

So you admit then that some of the protesters do care about the unborn above any other personal religious/political objective.

edit: I was only making an analogy by the way.

I dare say there are a few, but the majority of vocal pro-life advocates tend also to be either hard right and/or religious conservatives. To my mind they care first and foremost about themselves and pushing their agenda, and are selfishly using and fueling the abortion debate as a means to an end.

nozzferrahhtoo

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It became patently obvious to me that anyone who considered themselves "pro-life" but wasn't advocating for better support for hard-up mothers and their children was just arguing disingenuously.

We even had one user around boards who was completely pro choice.... almost extremist pro choice in advocating termination right up until birth and that a child has no rights until it travelled the birth canal..... up until around the time the referendum was announced.

At which point he not only SUDDENLY turned completely anti-abortion.... but he also advocated for the removal of social welfare and single parent allowance from such women too.

The reason given for not letting them have abortion or welfare? Apparently he as a privileged middle/late aged male thinks that lower class women need unwanted pregnancies and financial hardship in order to be motivated to better themselves in life. And therefore allowing them to have access to abortion is actually a form of oppression because it keeps them unmotivated to improve their lot in life. I kid you not.

Where women would be without guys like that who know whats good for them, and are willing to give it to them whether they want it or not, I do not know. It is a wonder any of them survive without such a good and enlightened male guiding hand to show them the right way to live.

nozzferrahhtoo

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

We even had one user around boards who was completely pro choice.... almost extremist pro choice in advocating termination right up until birth and that a child has no rights until it travelled the birth canal..... up until around the time the referendum was announced.

At which point he not only SUDDENLY turned completely anti-abortion.... but he also advocated for the removal of social welfare and single parent allowance from such women too.

The reason given for not letting them have abortion or welfare? Apparently he as a privileged middle/late aged male thinks that lower class women need unwanted pregnancies and financial hardship in order to be motivated to better themselves in life. And therefore allowing them to have access to abortion is actually a form of oppression because it keeps them unmotivated to improve their lot in life. I kid you not.

Where women would be without guys like that who know whats good for them, and are willing to give it to them whether they want it or not, I do not know. It is a wonder any of them survive without such a good and enlightened male guiding hand to show them the right way to live.

The person you are talking about, if I remember them correctly, is still around and posting from under their bridge in other threads

ancapailldorcha

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

We even had one user around boards who was completely pro choice.... almost extremist pro choice in advocating termination right up until birth and that a child has no rights until it travelled the birth canal..... up until around the time the referendum was announced.

At which point he not only SUDDENLY turned completely anti-abortion.... but he also advocated for the removal of social welfare and single parent allowance from such women too.

The reason given for not letting them have abortion or welfare? Apparently he as a privileged middle/late aged male thinks that lower class women need unwanted pregnancies and financial hardship in order to be motivated to better themselves in life. And therefore allowing them to have access to abortion is actually a form of oppression because it keeps them unmotivated to improve their lot in life. I kid you not.

Where women would be without guys like that who know whats good for them, and are willing to give it to them whether they want it or not, I do not know. It is a wonder any of them survive without such a good and enlightened male guiding hand to show them the right way to live.

I think I know who you are talking about.

Ten years ago, I would have been on the anti-choice side. I just couldn't see it as anything other than morally wrong. As time went on, my position became more nuanced and I wouldn't have objected to things like legalising it for incest, rape, mental health issues, etc...

However, since then we've seen the culture war and are still mired in it. On the left, you have aggressive climate change activists, Antifa and so on but the modern libertarian right are just so much worse IMO. They just seem to loathe everyone who isn't a white male and even then they'd probably oppose measures targeted at the white working classes which I think are needed. LGBT people, BAME people, women, liberals and so on. It was pretty clear from the SSM referendum what their motivation was and still is.

When I was going through my libertarian phase years ago, it was at least a consistent ideology. You might not have liked it but they were consistent across issues like gun ownership, drugs, abortion and same sex marriage. Then it became big state for me, small state for everyone else.

I would have voted to repeal the eighth and I'm glad the Irish electorate chose this, if for no other reason than abusing the constitution like this for political ends is utterly disgraceful and actively harmed the lives of several people.

nozzferrahhtoo

Hah my journey to pro choice was a little different to yours I think. I did not know what I was on the issue for a long time. But since I was what people would call "Atheist".... though I do not use that label myself all that much.... I was expected to be pro-choice. And I hated that. I hated people thinking they knew what my position should be based on something else entirely.

So one day I said F-this. I am going to go and TALK at length with those people outside the Central Bank in Dublin with all the pictures of fetuses who were so against abortion. I was just gonna walk up, entirely open minded, and hear their argument and be entirely open to them and finding out I was against abortion too. I was literally there for the taking. Biased by teenage rebelliousness TOWARDS being converted.... due to my ire from being assumed to be pro-choice by default without even asking me.

So I set aside an entire afternoon expecting to talk to them for hours. I rocked up, said I was interested in their message, and asked them what their issues against abortion were. I wanted the WHOLE manifesto.

"look at the photos" I was told. I said yes they were indeed unpleasant photos, but I wanted to hear their arguments and points and so on.

"Look at the pictures maaahhhnnn" I was told again in a mindless drawl. So I moved on to a completely different person at the booths (different in both age and gender) and got exactly the same thing. And I realised very quickly they had nothing. Literally. Nothing.

I have been asking them on and off line ever since for arguments against the morality and ethics of abortion. I was about 15/16 then. I am 41 now. So it is no short amount of time. They STILL got nothing. One resident poster on these threads for example has nothing much more than his excitement about the way the tongue on the fetus moves about and his idea of a counter argument on the subject is looking up your posts from 10 years ago to see if you used a different word then than you do now when talking about these things. Because seemingly if you do not use the EXACT same words for everything 10 years on, the your position on the matter is void.

Yet over the years the pro choice side have given me loads of arguments and points. Many of which I rejected. For example I never use the incest or rape arguments myself when arguing pro choice. I do not find them good arguments, and in fact self defeating in some ways.

The rest of the arguments I have refined and improved on and adopted over time.

Mr. CooL ICE

Bannasidhe wrote: »

How is looking for people who are part of a minority to be treated the same as a person who is part of a majority constitute "going after a certain type of person who isn't in a minority"?

Is equal treatment finite?
Does extending rights to a minority diminish the amount of those rights the majority has?

The same train of thought was around during the SSM debates. Some hetero couples were feeling oppressed at the thought of extending the same right. Same sh1t, different issue.

ancapailldorcha

Mark Rippetoe wrote: »

The same train of thought was around during the SSM debates. Some hetero couples were feeling oppressed at the thought of extending the same right. Same sh1t, different issue.

It's pathetically transparent and a perfect example of the tyranny of the majority. Human rights aren't a zero sum game.