WRU move to kill off Ospreys

molloyjh

CatFromHue wrote: »

stop moaning about people moaning molloyjh

Oh yeah, well, well, well......ah shut up CatFromHue. :pac:

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

Again, more hyperbole.

Overflowing: How many teams are included within this grouping? I look at the tables and I only see three teams that are completely off the pace (Zebre, Kings and Dragons). Is 3 out of 14 overflowing?

Exactly. The P14 has more teams in the European QFs than any other league while at the same being objectively the most competitive league of the 3 too. And this is an attempt to improve the fortunes of the sides in it.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Exactly. The P14 has more teams in the European QFs than any other league while at the same being objectively the most competitive league of the 3 too. And this is an attempt to improve the fortunes of the sides in it.

This proves absolutely nothing whatsoever. As pointed out many times.

The Pro14, by some distance, is the lowest standard of league by quite some distance. It is a league that is desperate for some relevancy. It is a league that is allowing in absolute rubbish like the Kings because it is a league that is absolutely desperate for a few quid.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

I have to be honest, I’m getting really sick of listening to people bitch and moan about the league and then go on to bitch and moan about every attempt to improve it, all the while never proposing solutions themselves. The situation in Wales was completely unsustainable, so what else where they supposed to do!? Do any of those people complaining have any ideas at all, or do they just want to crap all over everything?

And people talk about Welsh moaning!?

How do you think this is going to improve things?

If you’re drawing up a list of welsh teams that need to go, the level of mental gymnastics required to avoid axing the Dragons is incredible.

The most successful welsh team in the history of the Pro14 is about to be wound up. Let that sink in for a moment.

CatFromHue

thomond2006 wrote: »

Again, more hyperbole.

Overflowing: How many teams are included within this grouping? I look at the tables and I only see three teams that are completely off the pace (Zebre, Kings and Dragons). Is 3 out of 14 overflowing?

yeah 3 teams at that standard is too much, they're 21% of the league, and you have Treviso teetering on the edge of that group as well.

that group is teams you expect to win very easily against and they're points difference backs that up, it's -228, -264, and -304 respectively.

Newcastle in the English league are the worst team but their pd is only -103, granted they've played 2 less games.

having 1 or even 2 no hoppers in the league is ok, but 3 pushing 4 with the potential for 5 is not good. not good at all.

awec

thomond2006 wrote: »

Again, more hyperbole.

Overflowing: How many teams are included within this grouping? I look at the tables and I only see three teams that are completely off the pace (Zebre, Kings and Dragons). Is 3 out of 14 overflowing?

Every team doesn’t play every other team home and away, so this idea that cause a few teams hover mid table they are somehow worthwhile is a fallacy. The cheetahs are mince. The blues are mince.

awec

Ospreys Rugby have just released a statement saying they agree with their recently resigned chairman that this process is a farce and that they will not merge with the Scarlets, citing their history and their contributions to the national team.

Good on them. Sanity might prevail if they stand their ground.

AdamD

awec wrote: »

Every team doesn’t play every other team home and away, so this idea that cause a few teams hover mid table they are somehow worthwhile is a fallacy. The cheetahs are mince. The blues are mince.

Didn't the Blues win the Challenge Cup last year? And 5 of the 8 Champions cup quarter finalists this year are Pro 14? The league is far from as bad as you make out. People over rate the English and French leagues massively.

awec

AdamD wrote: »

Didn't the Blues win the Challenge Cup last year? And 5 of the 8 Champions cup quarter finalists this year are Pro 14? The league is far from as bad as you make out. People over rate the English and French leagues massively.

Again, so what?

What does this prove?

The Blues are by and large crap. Another team that offers the league almost nothing.

thomond2006

awec wrote: »

Every team doesn’t play every other team home and away, so this idea that cause a few teams hover mid table they are somehow worthwhile is a fallacy. The cheetahs are mince. The blues are mince.

How do you define mince? The Cheetahs made the playoffs last year.

You're not making sense.

awec wrote: »

Ospreys Rugby have just released a statement saying they agree with their recently resigned chairman that this process is a farce and that they will not merge with the Scarlets, citing their history and their contributions to the national team.

Good on them. Sanity might prevail if they stand their ground.

What is sanity in this? The status quo isn't working either and the Ospreys' statement confirms this also.

awec

thomond2006 wrote: »

What is sanity in this? The status quo isn't working either.

The sanity of not messing with the two most successful regions, while leaving the runt of the litter untouched.


If you're drawing up a list of things in Welsh rugby that need to disappear, the Dragons have to be at the top of the list. They are a joke.

Eod100

thomond2006 wrote: »

How do you define mince? The Cheetahs made the playoffs last year.

You're not making sense.



What is sanity in this? The status quo isn't working either and the Ospreys' statement confirms this also.

Seems a bit of grass is greener thinking from WRU that a new region will somehow be up to Scarlets and Ospreys current standard despite not existing yet. Or can get up to standard in short to long term .

swiwi_

troyzer wrote: »

Yeah, it's bad enough with sub standard Leinster A teams like Ulster and Connacht.

That « joke » is really getting tired I must say.

Jump_In_Jack

CatFromHue wrote: »

yeah 3 teams at that standard is too much, they're 21% of the league, and you have Treviso teetering on the edge of that group as well.

that group is teams you expect to win very easily against and they're points difference backs that up, it's -228, -264, and -304 respectively.

Newcastle in the English league are the worst team but their pd is only -103, granted they've played 2 less games.

having 1 or even 2 no hoppers in the league is ok, but 3 pushing 4 with the potential for 5 is not good. not good at all.

Just pointing out that there are only 12 teams in the English league.
So even with 3 bad teams out of 14, Pro14 still has more good teams.

stephen_n

awec wrote: »

The sanity of not messing with the two most successful regions, while leaving the runt of the litter untouched.


If you're drawing up a list of things in Welsh rugby that need to disappear, the Dragons have to be at the top of the list. They are a joke.

Ospreys are no better than Dragons anymore, they aren’t going to get any better without increased funding. That’s not going to happen, so they are going to stay sh1te.

awec

stephen_n wrote: »

Ospreys are no better than Dragons anymore, they aren’t going to get any better without increased funding. That’s not going to happen, so they are going to stay sh1te.

Ospreys contribute a lot more to Wales than the Dragons.

The Ospreys and the Scarlets are the two teams the WRU should be doing everything to protect, they are the two regions that have shown they can cut it, the two brands that are actually worthwhile.

If the WRU want to play around they should play around with the Blues and the Dragons.

Neil3030

It's tough for fans, but the WRU are actually making a bold move to potentially put two sustainable and fairly decent Welsh sides together. Cardiff will be the quiet victors here I suspect, certainly the vibe on Twitter is that the Bridge End side of Swansea will be drawn more toward Blues.

aloooof

stephen_n wrote: »

Ospreys are no better than Dragons anymore, they aren’t going to get any better without increased funding. That’s not going to happen, so they are going to stay sh1te.

I think this is pretty inaccurate tbh. Ospreys currently have more than double the points Dragons do. Since the 2011/12 season when they won the Pro12, they've contested 2 semi-finals. Dragons haven't been outside the bottom 4 in all that time and haven't finished ahead of Ospreys. Then there's also the contribution to Wales, as awec mentioned.

I've no idea what the solution is but it's just not correct to same they're no better than Dragons.

stephen_n

aloooof wrote: »

I think this is pretty inaccurate tbh. Ospreys currently have more than double the points Dragons do. Since the 2011/12 season when they won the Pro12, they've contested 2 semi-finals. Dragons haven't been outside the bottom 4 in all that time and haven't finished ahead of Ospreys. Then there's also the contribution to Wales, as awec mentioned.

I've no idea what the solution is but it's just not correct to same they're no better than Dragons.

In the last three seasons they have steadily declined, as bad as Dragons may be over stating it. They are currently 10th in the Pro14, only 3 points clear of Cheetahs, one of the SA teams that Awec moans about as being a crap addition to the league. Their display against Connacht last week was every bit as bad as the Dragons would put out. As I said in an earlier post, Ospreys were Historicaly one of the strongest teams in the league, but that’s not now.

CatFromHue

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Just pointing out that there are only 12 teams in the English league.
So even with 3 bad teams out of 14, Pro14 still has more good teams.

I agree.

I've mentioned it before about the league that I think we have plenty of good teams in it, I just think we have more bad teams than other leagues.

Usually in England there's one bad team that you can see from a long way off that they'll be relegated. There might be two in some seasons where you know it's between the two of them who'll be relegated and there'll be a big difference in points between them and third last.

awec

stephen_n wrote: »

In the last three seasons they have steadily declined, as bad as Dragons may be over stating it. They are currently 10th in the Pro14, only 3 points clear of Cheetahs, one of the SA teams that Awec moans about as being a crap addition to the league. Their display against Connacht last week was every bit as bad as the Dragons would put out. As I said in an earlier post, Ospreys were Historicaly one of the strongest teams in the league, but that’s not now.

Ospreys are certainly in a lull right now but as former champions of this league on 4 occasions, and the most successful Welsh side ever, it is disingenuous to compare them to the Cheetahs.

CatFromHue

awec wrote: »

Ospreys Rugby have just released a statement saying they agree with their recently resigned chairman that this process is a farce and that they will not merge with the Scarlets, citing their history and their contributions to the national team.

Good on them. Sanity might prevail if they stand their ground.

In a series of extraordinary twists that have shaken the game to its core, the Ospreys issued a statement in which they insist they are NOT on the verge of a merger with the Scarlets.


But this evening, the Professional Rugby Board have hit back in a statement of their own, claiming Heads of Terms on the merger, which is central to plans to restructure rugby in this country, had already been agreed between the two regions last Friday.

They say the claims of the Ospreys contradict what has been discussed in minuted meetings over months of negotiations.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/scarlets-ospreys-merger-plans-utter-15926479

or maybe not!!

Former Former

molloyjh wrote: »

I have to be honest, I’m getting really sick of listening to people bitch and moan about the league and then go on to bitch and moan about every attempt to improve it, all the while never proposing solutions themselves. The situation in Wales was completely unsustainable, so what else where they supposed to do!? Do any of those people complaining have any ideas at all, or do they just want to crap all over everything?

And people talk about Welsh moaning!?

I have lots of ideas to improve the league. None of them would make the league good, however. It's a fundamentally flawed product IMO.

However, my concern is that these Welsh changes not only do not improve the league but will actively make it worse.

Yes, the situation in Wales is unsustainable. However, the WRU seem to be repeating the mistakes of the past. Fair enough, the likes of Pontypridd, Bridgend etc had to go and their storied past and the loyalty of their fans shouldn't have saved them in the pro era - but there was a huge drop-off in support going from clubs to regions.

Now, Llanelli are for the chop. Not only will their amateur club history be gone but also their tremendous successes as a pro entity. The success of the Ospreys in the pro era will also go down the river. How many of the combined Scarlets/Ospreys fanbase will get behind this new team?

And conjuring a brand new team out of thin air in North Wales seems like a ridiculous idea. I can't see the rationale at all.

It looks to me like the WRU have gone for the nuclear option. Maybe that's the only one open to them, I don't know. It's just bizarre that it's their two most successful teams taking the fall.

Neil3030

Former Former wrote: »

I have lots of ideas to improve the league. None of them would make the league good, however. It's a fundamentally flawed product IMO.

However, my concern is that these Welsh changes not only do not improve the league but will actively make it worse.

Yes, the situation in Wales is unsustainable. However, the WRU seem to be repeating the mistakes of the past. Fair enough, the likes of Pontypridd, Bridgend etc had to go and their storied past and the loyalty of their fans shouldn't have saved them in the pro era - but there was a huge drop-off in support going from clubs to regions.

Now, Llanelli are for the chop. Not only will their amateur club history be gone but also their tremendous successes as a pro entity. The success of the Ospreys in the pro era will also go down the river. How many of the combined Scarlets/Ospreys fanbase will get behind this new team?

And conjuring a brand new team out of thin air in North Wales seems like a ridiculous idea. I can't see the rationale at all.

It looks to me like the WRU have gone for the nuclear option. Maybe that's the only one open to them, I don't know. It's just bizarre that it's their two most successful teams taking the fall.

You can't at all see the rationale of creating a team that represents North Wales? While in the same breath arguing how important it is to have teams that mean something to fans?

irishbucsfan

Jaysus if the Pro 14 is a fundamentally flawed product, given its revenues, then the vast majority of professional sports leagues in Europe and the wider world must all be absolutely ****ed!

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Jaysus if the Pro 14 is a fundamentally flawed product, given its revenues, then the vast majority of professional sports leagues in Europe and the wider world must all be absolutely ****ed!

What do you know that everyone else doesn't?

They turnover 20 million a year, but refuse to disclose how much profit that involves. At the same time, it's broadcasting partner refuses to divulge how many subscribers it has picked up.

Neil3030

The claim was that the league a fundamentally flawed product, I would actually be interested to hear why.

awec

Neil3030 wrote: »

The claim was that the league a fundamentally flawed product, I would actually be interested to hear why.

The league is basically run as a development league and a place to give test players a few run outs now and again when they're in need for some match fitness.

Which is unsurprising, since it's why the league exists, and it's exactly what the unions want, but it's also why it's never going to be taken overly seriously, and why it struggles for relevance. It's why it's stuck on some niche channel in the UK.

Most of the fixtures are complete dead rubbers.

The likes of Sexton, Ringrose etc play like 25% of Leinster's league games. A quarter of matches, it's actually ridiculous.

They need to improve the standard of the games, but it won't happen, because the people who run the league want to ensure the best players barely play matches.

Neil3030

awec wrote: »

The league is basically run as a development league and a place to give test players a few run outs now and again when they're in need for some match fitness.

Which is unsurprising, since it's why the league exists, and it's exactly what the unions want, but it's also why it's never going to be taken overly seriously, and why it struggles for relevance. It's why it's stuck on some niche channel in the UK.

Most of the fixtures are complete dead rubbers.

The likes of Sexton, Ringrose etc play like 25% of Leinster's league games. A quarter of matches, it's actually ridiculous.

They need to improve the standard of the games, but it won't happen, because the people who run the league want to ensure the best players barely play matches.

It's a zero sum game though, given the physical attrition of the sport and the combined demands of a European, International and Domestic calendar. Where would you be willing to sacrifice in order to increase the standard of the league?

awec

Neil3030 wrote: »

It's a zero sum game though, given the physical attrition of the sport and the combined demands of a European, International and Domestic calendar. Where would you be willing to sacrifice in order to increase the standard of the league?

Fewer fixtures.

I'd also like them to bring in a model, like football, where players have to have played a certain number of games to be eligible for a winners medal. Say like 50% of games.

Former Former

Neil3030 wrote: »

You can't at all see the rationale of creating a team that represents North Wales? While in the same breath arguing how important it is to have teams that mean something to fans?

This makes so little sense that I can only assume it's a joke that's gone over my head.

MarinersBlues

awec wrote: »

Most of the fixtures are complete dead rubbers.

The likes of Sexton, Ringrose etc play like 25% of Leinster's league games. A quarter of matches, it's actually ridiculous.

They need to improve the standard of the games, but it won't happen, because the people who run the league want to ensure the best players barely play matches.

This year has been very competitive. The fight for top three spots in both conferences are very entertaining.
Glasgow and Munster slogging it out in conference A is a good competition.

You are giving out that the league has 50+ top level internationals playing ~25% of the time - which league is doing better than that?

Eod100

awec wrote: »

Fewer fixtures.

I'd also like them to bring in a model, like football, where players have to have played a certain number of games to be eligible for a winners medal. Say like 50% of games.

Isn't it all of 5 in the PL including appearances off the bench?

Neil3030

awec wrote: »

Fewer fixtures.

I'd also like them to bring in a model, like football, where players have to have played a certain number of games to be eligible for a winners medal. Say like 50% of games.

Fewer games would mean the proportion of games played by the top players will change, but not the overall number. If Sexton only plays 4 games, does it matter that it's 4/12 or 4/18?

Former Former wrote: »

This makes so little sense that I can only assume it's a joke that's gone over my head.

This shows such an unwillingness to engage with a point that I can only assume you're the one taking the mick.

Former Former

Neil3030 wrote: »

This shows such an unwillingness to engage with a point that I can only assume you're the one taking the mick.

My point was that inventing new teams and hoping fans get on board has been a disaster for the WRU.

I honestly don't see how that is incompatible with thinking a brand new North Wales team is a bad idea.

Neil3030

Former Former wrote: »

My point was that inventing new teams and hoping fans get on board has been a disaster for the WRU.

I honestly don't see how that is incompatible with thinking a brand new North Wales team is a bad idea.

It's incompatible because you're not going down the same WRU route of inventing a team and brand out of thin air by setting up a Pro14 side that represents North Wales. You immediately have centuries of history and a very real regional identity to attract support. I've lived in North Wales, people identify as coming from there, nobody will ever identify as a Scarlet-Ospreys.

The Lost Sheep

awec wrote: »

The sanity of not messing with the two most successful regions, while leaving the runt of the litter untouched.

If you're drawing up a list of things in Welsh rugby that need to disappear, the Dragons have to be at the top of the list. They are a joke.

Its about geographical sense as well as anything. Ospreys made best sense to merge with another of the regions

awec wrote: »

The league is basically run as a development league and a place to give test players a few run outs now and again when they're in need for some match fitness.

Which is unsurprising, since it's why the league exists, and it's exactly what the unions want, but it's also why it's never going to be taken overly seriously, and why it struggles for relevance. It's why it's stuck on some niche channel in the UK.

Most of the fixtures are complete dead rubbers.

The likes of Sexton, Ringrose etc play like 25% of Leinster's league games. A quarter of matches, it's actually ridiculous.

They need to improve the standard of the games, but it won't happen, because the people who run the league want to ensure the best players barely play matches.

Sexton etc only play that much as Leinster can still win so much without them. The best players are playing more for sides that need them to. The league has moved from that perception. It will take a long time for that to completely change though.

Eod100

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Sexton etc only play that much as Leinster can still win so much without them. The best players are playing more for sides that need them to. The league has moved from that perception. It will take a long time for that to completely change though.

More to it than that though. Teams focusing on Champions Cup, Irish players away with Ireland for 6N, November series and RWCs and IRFU policy on resting players all come into it.

The Lost Sheep

Eod100 wrote: »

More to it than that though. Teams focusing on Champions Cup, Irish players away with Ireland for 6N, November series and RWCs and IRFU policy on resting players all come into it.

Yes but for provinces they can play there irish players less and still come out on top. They could play some of their players more is point im making. Yes some are focusing on all that you mention but they still play in good few pro14 games but others dont at all

Zzippy

awec wrote: »

Every team doesn’t play every other team home and away, so this idea that cause a few teams hover mid table they are somehow worthwhile is a fallacy. The cheetahs are mince. The blues are mince.

The same Cheetahs that should have beaten Ulster this year but for conceding an injury time try? The same Cheetahs that finished 3rd in their conference last year (Ulster finished 4th in theirs)?

The same Blues that won the Challenge Cup last year? The same Blues whose CC win saved Ulster a playoff against them to qualify for the HEC this season?

Who's mince again?

Squidgy Black

awec wrote: »

The league is basically run as a development league and a place to give test players a few run outs now and again when they're in need for some match fitness.

Which is unsurprising, since it's why the league exists, and it's exactly what the unions want, but it's also why it's never going to be taken overly seriously, and why it struggles for relevance. It's why it's stuck on some niche channel in the UK.

Most of the fixtures are complete dead rubbers.

The likes of Sexton, Ringrose etc play like 25% of Leinster's league games. A quarter of matches, it's actually ridiculous.

They need to improve the standard of the games, but it won't happen, because the people who run the league want to ensure the best players barely play matches.

This isn't the league's fault though, this is due to the fact Leinster have such strength in numbers that they can slot in other players in place of their marquee players and not have a substantial drop off.

And another thing that plays a part in this is the IRFU's player welfare management, again, not league mandated.

Look at the issues the Premiership are having and saying their premier players are being flogged, as well as the Top14.

troyzer

It should be noted that Super Rugby also sees its best players missing most of the season. The Chiefs were losing the other day but Retallick was still pulled at half time to manage his minutes in a world cup year. You'd never see Sexton pulled off that early for the sake of minutes. Yet we don't criticise Super Rugby, at least not for that.

Sexton had about 700 combined minutes in the Pro14 and Heineken cup last year. Barrett had around 1,000. It's more, but it's still a long way off what Owen Farrell had. Dan Biggar had more club minutes last year than Barrett for example. The reason why Sexton plays less than even the other international 10s in the Pro14, is because he can. Leinster are deep enough.

French rugby also has huge flaws in how they simply don't play their best teams away from home. Most French teams are trying to win all of their home games and sneak a handful away if they can. But they usually just send the kids.

The Premiership is pretty much the only league worldwide that can claim to have its best players out there week in, week out. And they're absolutely ****e against non Premiership opposition for it.

The Pro14 is not a bad league. Every league and the teams in them have to make sacrifices somewhere. It does have more than its share of bad teams which isn't a problem in England and France due to relegation but this is a problem that Super Rugby has as well. Even the NFL has this. It's just a function of a closed league.

A shorter season will help a lot but it paradoxically needs more teams to do that.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Every team doesn’t play every other team home and away, so this idea that cause a few teams hover mid table they are somehow worthwhile is a fallacy. The cheetahs are mince. The blues are mince.

That’s gas, cos in the last 12 months Cardiff comprehensively beat Ulster in Cardiff 35-17 and narrowly lost in Belfast 16-12. Last time Cheetahs and Ulster played each other they drew. Cheetahs made the knock-outs last year too. Which is more than Ulster did.

troyzer

molloyjh wrote: »

awec wrote: »

Every team doesn’t play every other team home and away, so this idea that cause a few teams hover mid table they are somehow worthwhile is a fallacy. The cheetahs are mince. The blues are mince.

That’s gas, cos in the last 12 months Cardiff comprehensively beat Ulster in Cardiff 35-17 and narrowly lost in Belfast 16-12. Last time Cheetahs and Ulster played each other they drew. Cheetahs made the knock-outs last year too. Which is more than Ulster did.

Blues are also the defending European champions*.

Former Former

Squidgy Black wrote: »

This isn't the league's fault though, this is due to the fact Leinster have such strength in numbers that they can slot in other players in place of their marquee players and not have a substantial drop off.

And another thing that plays a part in this is the IRFU's player welfare management, again, not league mandated.

Look at the issues the Premiership are having and saying their premier players are being flogged, as well as the Top14.

It's not the league's fault - but it is a fault with the league.

The Top 14 and the Premiership "flogging" players might not be a good thing for the national sides, but it means the paying fan gets to see the big names on a more regular basis.

Wanting to see the up and coming youngsters is great for the rugby nerds who post on boards.ie; the more casual fan wants to see players he knows and more often than not, he doesn't get that in the Pro14.

thomond2006

Can we have a separate thread? This is going to drag on over the week.

troyzer

thomond2006 wrote: »

Can we have a separate thread? This is going to drag on over the week.

Project Reset: the mega thread.

Invite all the Gwlad lads over.

sydthebeat

the fans will still support the team regardless of the lack of "superstars"..... As show been constantly shown in inter pro games

Random Bloke

If the merger takes place before the start of the 2019/20 season, as seems to be the intention, will the new North Wales team will be up and running at that stage? It seems ambitious, if that's the plan.
Could we have a Pro 13 tournament, and would the conference system remain?

molloyjh

As I’ve said before, every rugby set-up has its issues. There is no perfect solution. There can’t be. At the end of the day though, what do people want? The French set-up that sees most French clubs nowhere near success in the HEC and the national team a farce? How about the English set-up where the focus is so much on money and “not getting relegated” that most clubs have struggled to develop the depth required to compete at European level and the English side has a tendency towards inconsistency? How about the Irish model, where success (defined by more than just trophies!) has been built at every level simultaneously despite having a fraction the playing numbers and budget of England and France?

The faults with the league end up being a strength of the system. And on that basis, that of the bigger picture, I’m personally more than happy with where we’re at. And the Welsh are looking to move in the same direction. As smaller countries we need to be developing more per club/region/province than the English or French, so we have to approach our league differently. Ignoring that crucial point is nothing more than simply missing the point.