WRU move to kill off Ospreys

awec

Random Bloke wrote: »

If the merger takes place before the start of the 2019/20 season, as seems to be the intention, will the new North Wales team will be up and running at that stage? It seems ambitious, if that's the plan.
Could we have a Pro 13 tournament, and would the conference system remain?

I believe Wales have to provide 4 teams, so if they do get rid of Ospreys they'll have to enter another team.

There won't be a pro13. I think a setup with conferences and an odd number of teams is a level of daft that not even our league would implement.

molloyjh

Random Bloke wrote: »

If the merger takes place before the start of the 2019/20 season, as seems to be the intention, will the new North Wales team will be up and running at that stage? It seems ambitious, if that's the plan.
Could we have a Pro 13 tournament, and would the conference system remain?

The north Wales team already exists in some form. They’re called RGC or something like that.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

The north Wales team already exists in some form. They’re called RGC or something like that.

RBC 1404. 9th in the Welsh Premiership.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

As I’ve said before, every rugby set-up has its issues. There is no perfect solution. There can’t be. At the end of the day though, what do people want? The French set-up that sees most French clubs nowhere near success in the HEC and the national team a farce? How about the English set-up where the focus is so much on money and “not getting relegated” that most clubs have struggled to develop the depth required to compete at European level and the English side has a tendency towards inconsistency? How about the Irish model, where success (defined by more than just trophies!) has been built at every level simultaneously despite having a fraction the playing numbers and budget of England and France?

The faults with the league end up being a strength of the system. And on that basis, that of the bigger picture, I’m personally more than happy with where we’re at. And the Welsh are looking to move in the same direction. As smaller countries we need to be developing more per club/region/province than the English or French, so we have to approach our league differently. Ignoring that crucial point is nothing more than simply missing the point.

Of course you are, you're a Leinster fan. The league structure and rules suits clubs like Leinster perfectly.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

RBC 1404. 9th in the Welsh Premiership.

RGC, molloyjh was right. Team name is welsh for north wales rugby, no idea what the 1404 is about.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

RGC, molloyjh was right. Team name is welsh for north wales rugby, no idea what the 1404 is about.

Ah yeah sorry that was a typo, I was trying to make a point that they're not even a top premiership side.

Also Owain Glyndwr became King of Wales in 1404, OBVIOUSLY, everyone knows that!

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah yeah sorry that was a typo, I was trying to make a point that they're not even a top premiership side.

They're not a top premiership side, that's true. But it's only because they've only been semi-pro for ~10 years, progressing to the Premiership from 2 or 3 leagues below in that time-span.

They'd obviously be murdered by the Southern Kings U20s without a serious influx of players, but the WRU have been slowly putting this together over the last decade, so it'll be interesting to what happens.

Also Owain Glyndwr became King of Wales in 1404, OBVIOUSLY, everyone knows that!

Very much the original O.G. in those parts....

Random Bloke

awec wrote: »

I believe Wales have to provide 4 teams, so if they do get rid of Ospreys they'll have to enter another team.

There won't be a pro13. I think a setup with conferences and an odd number of teams is a level of daft that not even our league would implement.

I agree, and wasn't seriously contemplating a change to Pro 13. But rushing to cobble together a 4th Welsh team, who will be predictably rubbish, in order to balance the numbers, seems like something that will weaken the league.

There's being mumblings in the past about an English team (London whatever), or another South African team, or an Eastern European team, joining the league. Might be a better option, if timelines permit.

errlloyd

Random Bloke wrote: »

awec wrote: »

I believe Wales have to provide 4 teams, so if they do get rid of Ospreys they'll have to enter another team.

There won't be a pro13. I think a setup with conferences and an odd number of teams is a level of daft that not even our league would implement.

I agree, and wasn't seriously contemplating a change to Pro 13. But rushing to cobble together a 4th Welsh team, who will be predictably rubbish, in order to balance the numbers, seems like something that will weaken the league.

There's being mumblings in the past about an English team (London whatever), or another South African team, or an Eastern European team, joining the league. Might be a better option, if timelines permit.

I think you're missing the point. The inclusion of a Welsh region in the North is one of the main, reasons why they're merging other teams

Dave_The_Sheep

I'm vindictive and short sighted enough to really enjoy the Welsh tearing themselves apart.

Mal-Adjusted

CatFromHue wrote: »

you have Treviso teetering on the edge of that group as well.

How so? Treviso are 2nd in their conference behind Leinster.

awec wrote: »

this idea that cause a few teams hover mid table they are somehow worthwhile is a fallacy.

Eh, they can't all be at the top of the league you know? There's nothing wrong with being mid-table, especially with a league as tight as this years'. Conference A, 8 points between 3rd and 5th. Conference B, 8 points between 2nd and 5th.

MarinersBlues

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

CatFromHue wrote: »

you have Treviso teetering on the edge of that group as well.

How so? Treviso are 2nd in their conference behind Leinster.

awec wrote: »

this idea that cause a few teams hover mid table they are somehow worthwhile is a fallacy.

Eh, they can't all be at the top of the league you know? There's nothing wrong with being mid-table, especially with a league as tight as this years'. Conference A, 8 points between 3rd and 5th. Conference B, 8 points between 2nd and 5th.

You're missing his point.
They are all mince.
The fact that they are mostly doing well in Europe proves this - somehow.

Akrasia

awec wrote: »

RGC, molloyjh was right. Team name is welsh for north wales rugby, no idea what the 1404 is about.

The 1404 is the record attendance for one of their home games

CIARAN_BOYLE

While this seems crazy to many people there is a degree of sense. The North Wales region sells out their current ground for u20 matches. If they get a bigger stadium and keep that level as a base support they could outdo the region they are replacing.

The Welsh would I assume expect the merged entity to emulate Leinster and perform in the league and in Europe consistently securing a larger share of prize pool.

troyzer

Apparentely the Welsh government are the ones pushing all of this as part of some economic/cultural programme. They approached the WRU and asked if it would be possible to set up and fund a North Wales rugby team.

So from the WRU's perspective, it's not their own cash they'd be burning while waiting to see if it gets off the ground. Seen in that context, it makes much more sense.

The Ospreys are in financial ruin at the moment and they're the softest target

Drifter50

Gawd, sounds like a mess to be fair
Remember the other team that disappeared, Celtic Warriors was`nt it. What happened to them.................

sydthebeat

Why hasn't a merger between blues and dragons not happening been publicly explained ??

Surely that makes sense from a rugby point of view, from a geography point of view and from a financial point of view, seeing a wru have to fund the dragons in their mediocrity.....
It's not like the dragons have ever been a well supported team by fans in that region.... To all intents and purposes Newport fans don't have an affinity with them at all.

troyzer

sydthebeat wrote: »

Why hasn't a merger between blues and dragons not happening been publicly explained ??

Surely that makes sense from a rugby point of view, from a geography point of view and from a financial point of view, seeing a wru have to fund the dragons in their mediocrity.....
It's not like the dragons have ever been a well supported team by fans in that region.... To all intents and purposes Newport fans don't have an affinity with them at all.

Newport and Cardiff are also both primarily soccer towns with a relatively small rugby fanbase.

The WRU does have a clear conflict of interest here with its majority ownership of the Dragons and its closer than normal relationship with the Blues vis-à-vis the Cardiff Arms Park.

Jump_In_Jack

Think Wales is too small to keep 4 pro teams going.
Perhaps 1 southwestern based in llanelli, 1 southeastern based on Cardiff, 1 mid and northern wales based in Colwyn Bay is the right way to go.
Scotland have only 2 teams like, though I’d like to see a third Scottish team.

troyzer

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Think Wales is too small to keep 4 pro teams going.
Perhaps 1 southwestern based in llanelli, 1 southeastern based on Cardiff, 1 mid and northern wales based in Colwyn Bay is the right way to go.
Scotland have only 2 teams like, though I’d like to see a third Scottish team.

Rugby is nowhere near as popular in Scotland as it is in Wales.

And they already had both the Border Reivers and Caledonia Reds which failed.

Jump_In_Jack

troyzer wrote: »

Rugby is nowhere near as popular in Scotland as it is in Wales.

And they already had both the Border Reivers and Caledonia Reds which failed.

Scotland’s population and their economy mean that they could feasibly run a 3rd team, only issue is where to base it. Perhaps Aberdeen?

troyzer

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Scotland’s population and their economy mean that they could feasibly run a 3rd team, only issue is where to base it. Perhaps Aberdeen?

Aberdeen have already had a team: the Caledonia Reds. Which failed almost immediately.

Scotland had four teams until 1998 and three until 2007. They weren't financially viable. Economy or not, very few people in Scotland give a **** about rugby. Edinburgh is the capital city and their team is one of the oldest in the world, they only ever get more than 5,000 or so at a Pro14 game when it's against Glasgow.

It cannot take any more teams.

Jump_In_Jack

troyzer wrote: »

Aberdeen have already had a team: the Caledonia Reds. Which failed almost immediately.

Scotland had four teams until 1998 and three until 2007. They weren't financially viable. Economy or not, very few people in Scotland give a **** about rugby. Edinburgh is the capital city and their team is one of the oldest in the world, they only ever get more than 5,000 or so at a Pro14 game when it's against Glasgow.

It cannot take any more teams.

I just read a bit about Scottish rugby on Wikipedia and it seems the borders region in the south east of Scotland is where rugby is most popular but there isn’t enough funding for a team there.
Conversely Aberdeen has the funding but not the popularity to sustain it.
Hopefully in time a 3rd team would be feasible.

But to get back to my point about Wales, I don’t think there is enough funding in Wales for 4 pro teams.
Perhaps as someone mentioned there is a new funding model for a Northenr team which enables 3 teams plus 1 not funded by the WRU.

troyzer

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I just read a bit about Scottish rugby on Wikipedia and it seems the borders region in the south east of Scotland is where rugby is most popular but there isn’t enough funding for a team there.
Conversely Aberdeen has the funding but not the popularity to sustain it.
Hopefully in time a 3rd team would be feasible.

But to get back to my point about Wales, I don’t think there is enough funding in Wales for 4 pro teams.
Perhaps as someone mentioned there is a new funding model for a Northenr team which enables 3 teams plus 1 not funded by the WRU.

The border region had the Reivers. It failed for various reasons, chief among which was that the SRU could not financially support 3 regions. It could have kept the Reivers, but it would have meant shutting down Edinburgh or Glasgow which ultimately had much more growth potential.

A 3rd team isn't feasible and probably never will be.

There is enough funding for 4 teams. There isn't enough funding for 4 competitive teams.

sydthebeat

heres a sneaky thought.......

WRU realise that welsh rugby cannot sustain 4 competitive teams....
they really only can finance 2 competitive teams and a 'development' team, but are tied into a 4 team contract with Pro 14.
so they come up with a 2 + 2 system where 2 teams are 'competitive' ie scarspreys and blues, and two development teams in Collie bay and dragons.
what they really want is to merge dragons and blues, into a stronger blues side, which they would see as an easy sell.
however this obviously would affect their 4 team contract.... so what they do is to decide that Collie bay, being their new shiny development team, is protected.... so that leaves a merger with scarlets and ospreys to create one super team, and foresee a future merger of blues / dragons as a second super team when the time is right to do so..

so they see rumblings of more SA teams wanting to get involved, and possibly a georgian team as well.......

great they think..... we can use their inclusion as an excuse for us to drop down to 3 welsh teams in a restructuring...... which is what we want all along

molloyjh

Neil3030 wrote: »

They're not a top premiership side, that's true. But it's only because they've only been semi-pro for ~10 years, progressing to the Premiership from 2 or 3 leagues below in that time-span.

And after winning the Premiership they lost a bunch of players to fully professional sides too AFAIK.

Former Former

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I just read a bit about Scottish rugby on Wikipedia and it seems the borders region in the south east of Scotland is where rugby is most popular but there isn’t enough funding for a team there.

At the time, it was an absolute given that the Borders would have a team as it is/was the heartland of the game, clubs like Gala, Melrose and Hawick would have been big suppliers to the national team.

It was basically the same situation as in Wales. Too many teams, one region absorbed by another, outrage among fans, accusations of Union bias, etc etc.

Luckily, the lessons of the past have been learned....

bob mcbob

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I just read a bit about Scottish rugby on Wikipedia and it seems the borders region in the south east of Scotland is where rugby is most popular but there isn’t enough funding for a team there.
Conversely Aberdeen has the funding but not the popularity to sustain it.
Hopefully in time a 3rd team would be feasible.

But to get back to my point about Wales, I don’t think there is enough funding in Wales for 4 pro teams.
Perhaps as someone mentioned there is a new funding model for a Northenr team which enables 3 teams plus 1 not funded by the WRU.

Yes the borders in Scotland are the heartland of rugby. The biggest rugby towns (Hawick, Galashiels and Melrose) have produced a lot of great players.

The problem is the population of these towns - Hawick 14K, Gala 15K, Melrose 2K

The population of the area is not enough to support a fully professional team.

The SRU are introducing a new league next year (Super Six) to focus player development on the next step down from Pro14. These teams will also play games against Welsh premiership.

A good idea except for where the teams are based 1 in Borders (Melrose), 1 in SW (Ayr), 1 in the centre (Stirling) and 3 err in Edinburgh

Digifriendly

Back in the days of international touring sides playing matches outside tests I remember East Wales and West Wales both playing the Wallabies on different tours. So how about West Wales (Ospreys/Scarlets); East Wales (Cardiff/Dragons) and North/Mid Wales team?

jasper100

How lucky we are to have had 4 natural provinces, albeit tried to kill Connacht.

Cookiemunster

So definitely no merger then. Maybe.....

https://twitter.com/BBCSportWales/status/1103279314404065283

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Of course you are, you're a Leinster fan. The league structure and rules suits clubs like Leinster perfectly.

A short BS response to a much wider point being made. Munster have been consistently in the latter stages of Europe for years as well as the P14. Connacht have pushed on from where they were. Ulster are struggling, but that's got a hell of a lot more to do with Ulsters failings as a club than anything else at all. Looking at the number of starting forwards that were Ulster developed lately says a hell of a lot about where they are as a club. That's got nothing to do with the P14. If they were even half as competent as they should be they'd be measuring up to the likes of Munster too. And then of course we have the most successful Irish side of all time at the moment.

But sure don't mind any of that. It's not like all these things are in any way linked or anything. :rolleyes:

thomond2006

Cookiemunster wrote: »

So definitely no merger then. Maybe.....

https://twitter.com/BBCSportWales/status/1103279314404065283

This is leaning towards North Wales replacing the Ospreys I think.

troyzer

Can we just agree for a moment that there are two problems with the Pro14?

1) Lack of revenue.
2) Too many fixtures without the best players.

I honestly don't think the problems run any deeper than this. The teams are clearly competitive at full strength with the best of Europe, the league itself is also hyper competitive compared to other leagues when it comes to its domestic playoffs.

Letting another few South African teams would go a long way to solving both as long as they're good teams. It would allow a single league round robin with no games during international windows. This would mean that proportionately, we'd have more stars playing. Which raises the value of each fixture and the product as a whole.

It would also boost revenue.

thomond2006

21 fixtures overall (18 + 3 playoff stages) is the correct mix. There's enough to develop some young players while not overexposing the product. Looking at the current schedule, that would cut Round 1, 8/9 and 16.

I do think there needs to be an effort to start the season strongly in its fixtures. The season only tends to get major attention four of five weeks in once the European weekends approach. That's not ideal. There are player welfare issues regarding the preseason schedule of the international players but I'd love to see an interprofessional weekend kick off the Pro14/16 season. Get attention on the product from the beginning.

Eod100

thomond2006 wrote: »

This is leaning towards North Wales replacing the Ospreys I think.

If there was uproar about Ospreys merging with Scarlets, would imagine there'd be even more that was proposed!

thomond2006

Eod100 wrote: »

If there was uproar about Ospreys merging with Scarlets, would imagine there'd be even more that was proposed!

There's a suggestion that the Ospreys are broke. That's the out.

Former Former

The Scarlets statement;

Some facts and timeline ...

Firstly, we can confirm the statement issued by the Professional Rugby Board (PRB) on Tuesday afternoon as accurate, as are the comments made by Wales’ national coach that the proposed merger was driven by the regions, in consultation with the PRB.

In late December, the Scarlets received a high-level approach from the Ospreys to explore the option of a merger as they had come to the conclusion that their position as tenants at the Liberty Stadium was proving to be challenging.

This was discussed at the two-day strategy meeting of PRB on January 8th and 9th. The loss of a region would have put Welsh rugby in breach of its commitment to having four regions playing in the major competitions. As a result, the option of a team playing out of North Wales was raised.

By the time of the next PRB meeting on February 5, discussions had broken down between the Scarlets and Ospreys and we were told that the Ospreys and another region were in talks over a possible merger, again with North Wales being the option to maintain four teams.

Subsequently, those discussions also broke down and we were approached again last week by the Ospreys to reconsider a merger.

Heads of terms were agreed and signed by the Ospreys and Scarlets on March 1 on terms we believe our supporters would be happy with. This was to be proposed at a meeting of the PRB on Tuesday afternoon, but we were told at the start of that meeting that the Ospreys had changed their mind.

The merger is off the table.

In recent years, the Scarlets have been building steadily to regain our place as one of Europe’s leading sides. We have a superb stadium, great staff, loyal and passionate supporters and a team to be proud of. We know that the problems regarding Welsh rugby have not gone away but we remain committed to the best interests of the Scarlets and the game in Wales.

https://www.scarlets.wales/en/team-news/articles/to-scarlets-supporters-everywhere/

So it seems the Ospreys floated the idea (presumably because the rent for Liberty is crippling them), then backed out when they saw the backlash.

troyzer

thomond2006 wrote: »

This is leaning towards North Wales replacing the Ospreys I think.

A plain reading of the Scarlets statement based with other things we know suggests that this was the order that things happened:

1) Ospreys are basically insolvent and can't service their agreement with Liberty stadium. Collapse inevitable so they sought to bring about an equitable merger with another team.

2) WRU greenlights it in principle provided it can get a fourth team to fulfill its obligations to the Pro14. It takes the North Wales plan it's probably had for ages from the safe, dusts it down and takes it to the Welsh assembly who say they'll row in. WRU sees this as an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone.

3) Ospreys then realise that Scarlets won't consider a merger but are happy to absorb the Ospreys and continue just being the Scarlets.

4) Sometime in January, the WRU gave the Ospreys a cash injection to stave off bankruptcy (I remember reading this somewhere) while the Ospreys pursued a merger with the Blues.

5) Blues tell them the same thing: no problem, but we're still going to be called the Blues. WRU gets annoyed because the wheels are already in motion with North Wales.

6) Ospreys come back to Scarlets with cap in hand and agree in principle to a merger.

7) Ospreys fans lose their **** and Scarlets insist on it still being called the Scarlets. Ospreys back out again.

sydthebeat

ospreys being trolls

Eod100

thomond2006 wrote: »

There's a suggestion that the Ospreys are broke. That's the out.

Aha forgot about that.

Whole thing seems a mess. Ospreys will be completely hung out to dry if the minutes are published.

Think airing it all so publicly didn't do any party any favour. Plus the idea this could all be sorted before next season was daft! Surely would need at least a season to get sorted?

troyzer

It's starting to look like the Ospreys are the desperate ones telling porkies.

What an absolute shambles.

Another good example why having the IRFU own the provinces is optimal.

joseywhales

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What an absolute shambles.

Another good example why having the IRFU own the provinces is optimal.

I think it's nearly too optimal, we are pissing off every other European club with our delicious success, as they continue to bankrupt themselves and over hype their competitions

tototoe

troyzer wrote: »

Can we just agree for a moment that there are two problems with the Pro14?

1) Lack of revenue.
2) Too many fixtures without the best players.

I honestly don't think the problems run any deeper than this. The teams are clearly competitive at full strength with the best of Europe, the league itself is also hyper competitive compared to other leagues when it comes to its domestic playoffs.

Letting another few South African teams would go a long way to solving both as long as they're good teams. It would allow a single league round robin with no games during international windows. This would mean that proportionately, we'd have more stars playing. Which raises the value of each fixture and the product as a whole.

It would also boost revenue.

Maybe it's mixed in with 1 and 2, but a lack of interest of many supporters in the league is a big issue. Attendances are hardly record breaking with some games being exceptions.

troyzer

tototoe wrote: »

Maybe it's mixed in with 1 and 2, but a lack of interest of many supporters in the league is a big issue. Attendances are hardly record breaking with some games being exceptions.

The lack of interest and attendance depends on the country:

South Africa: the teams are **** and they're still salty about being kicked out of Super Rugby.

Ireland: actually has decent attendance all things considered but most fans shy away because it's a lesser competition.

Wales: same as Ireland as well as cocking up regionalisation.

Scotland: same as Ireland and NOBODY cares about rugby.

Italy: nobody cares about rugby.

tototoe

troyzer wrote: »

The lack of interest and attendance depends on the country:

South Africa: the teams are **** and they're still salty about being kicked out of Super Rugby.

Ireland: actually has decent attendance all things considered but most fans shy away because it's a lesser competition.

Wales: same as Ireland as well as cocking up regionalisation.

Scotland: same as Ireland and NOBODY cares about rugby.

Italy: nobody cares about rugby.

Hence it's a problem. It's not the most engaging competition ever and the attendances reflect that....regardless if the country imo.

It was actually better a few years ago but has gone backwards if anything.

troyzer

tototoe wrote: »

Hence it's a problem. It's not the most engaging competition ever and the attendances reflect that....regardless if the country imo.

It was actually better a few years ago but has gone backwards if anything.

It is a problem but it's not necessarily a problem with the league. As in, there's not much they can do to improve it.

Cookiemunster

tototoe wrote: »

Hence it's a problem. It's not the most engaging competition ever and the attendances reflect that....regardless if the country imo.

It was actually better a few years ago but has gone backwards if anything.

Premiership attendances aren't exactly stellar either. In fact the Pro14 attendances stand up pretty well against them.

troyzer

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Premiership attendances aren't exactly stellar either. In fact the Pro14 attendances stand up pretty well against them.

Do they? There were 7 Pro14 games over the weekend with a combined attendance of 40,760. Which is 5,822 per game.

There were 6 Premiership games with a combined attendance of 80,819 which is 13,469 per game.

Yeah, we don't compare favourably at all.

Just for the sake of completion:

Top14 had 88,269 for 12,609 per game.

I couldn't get three of the attendances for the Super Rugby games but the rest of them alone were over 50,000.