Why are people obsessed with getting a pension

Jim2007

KyussB wrote: »

You measure the stability of pensions over the course of 40-50 years - and what you're investing in matters, as pensions historically and presently are lacking in a combination of transparency and consumer control, that allows avoiding investments in industries that externalize a huge amount of their costs and engage in other unethical practices, like the fossil fuel industry, tobacco industry, pharma industry among many others.

You clearly have not got the foggiest idea of how state pensions work. They are pay as you go systems. There is noting to invest because every thing that comes in and then sum goes back out. And as the population gets older there will be fewer people to pay in and more people to take out.

Talking about ethical investing, when you have NOTHING to invest just shows who far from grasping the actual problem you are.

GreeBo

KyussB wrote: »

To answer your question regarding ethics, you need to tell me where you put your pension: What pension firm, and which of their funds?

Afraid not chief, *you* (the one making the outlandish claims) need to show us that *all* pensions funds are unethical.

KyussB wrote: »

There's a pretty good chance that they are either investing in unethical companies/industries - or that there's a lack of adequate transparency or control over the funds. Fair bet that you're going to withhold this information, or pretend that you invest in 'ethical' funds, after you just spent the last pages rubbishing the idea of ethical concerns - to try and suit your arguments...

Yeah, it's just me and all the other rational people in the world.

KyussB wrote: »

You don't appear to have any ethiical objections to e.g. investing in fossil fuel firms etc., from what you've said thus far: Just because it makes you money, doesn't turn an unethical investment into an ethical one - as that's not how ethics work...

You ask me to answer questions - and as a rhetorical tactic, you ignore when I do answer them, and ask me to answer the same quetsions over and over again. You selectively ignore both parts of what I say, and what parts of bfa1509 has said, as a rhetorical tactic.

These are precisely the types of rhetorical tactics you get from finance/Libertarian shills.

You havent answered the most basic of questions.
How does the government fund your utopian idea of free money for everyone?

BTW, how is it ethical to not plan to support your own future via a private pension?

GreeBo

KyussB wrote: »

People need to be making logical cold hard decisions about ethics - that's way more important than money.

Is it really?
I refer you to my previous questions...can you eat ethics? Will it they keep you warm at night? Does your car run on ethics?

coylemj

Drumpot wrote: »

In essence when you have taken your tax free lump sum out of your pension you can put the balance into another pension vehicle called an ARF (once you receive full state pension).

There's no regulatory link between an ARF and the state pension. If you are retiring in your 50s on an occupational pension, you can put money into an ARF and just leave it there or draw from it as you please. Which could be 10 or more years before you get the state pension.

Jim2007

partyguinness wrote: »

Of course you need to provide for yourself for your life but like hell I will rely on the State or some slippery pension salesman on commission. I will make my own investments.

And you will almost certainly loose. I know this because I've spent a long time observing people's behaviour when it comes to investing. The problem is you are managing your own money and your decisions will be clouded by that fact. The only one I know that I would expect to do well managing his own funds is my son and that's because he has Aspergers so emotion does not come into his decision making process.

It's very rare for an individual over a 30 year period to come out with anything more that what he put it. Swiss pensions are among the most highly regulated in the world and it is why the average Swiss has a very nice pot when they hit retirement age - they don't get to meddle in the pension.

GreeBo

partyguinness wrote: »

"Basically pay a broker/pension provider thousands of pounds of fees over 40 odd years so you have an income to live off for say 10-15 years if you are lucky to live that long. Never mind the fact that your expenditure will have plummeted (no mortgage, kids grown up, beery weekends and hols with the lads a distant memory as is frivolous and expensive shopping habits."

Of course you need to provide for yourself for your life but like hell I will rely on the State or some slippery pension salesman on commission. I will make my own investments.

So like hell will you accept a free 50% loan on your contributions?

How much are you planning to save yourself to cover those 10-15 years?
What is your plan here?
How much will you save/invest per month?
Whats your target savings pot?
How much time will you spend on managing those investments and migrating them to less volatile forms as you get closer to retirement?
How knowledgeable are you at the moment regarding the investment market?

Jim2007

People have been talking a lot here about ME and my pension. But there is a very important social aspect to a pension - if we don't ensure that everyone is saving and making provision for their old age, then we will end up having to share our pension savings with them!

If there is a large section of the population without adequate pensions, then you can expect they will elect politicians what will leaving and tax your savings to the benefit of those who have not.... so it is in your interests to ensure everyone makes provision for old age..........

GreeBo

coylemj wrote: »

There's no regulatory link between an ARF and the state pension. If you are retiring in your 50s on an occupational pension, you can put money into an ARF and just leave it there or draw from it as you please. Which could be 10 or more years before you get the state pension.

Just want to confirm for everyone that with an ARF you have to withdraw 4% per annum once you are over 60 and 5% over 70

Drumpot

coylemj wrote: »

There's no regulatory link between an ARF and the state pension. If you are retiring in your 50s on an occupational pension, you can put money into an ARF and just leave it there or draw from it as you please. Which could be 10 or more years before you get the state pension.

If you don’t have a guaranteed income of €12700 before the age of 75, you are obliged to lock €63,500 in an AMRF in which you have prohibited access.. I don’t want to get into more technical aspects of pensions and was responding to somehody who thought you have to receive your pension in stages. So I just stated the simple explanation that once you receive full state pension (which is over €12,700) you can Drawdown all your funds.

GreeBo

Jim2007 wrote: »

If there is a large section of the population without adequate pensions, then you can expect they will elect politicians what will leaving and tax your savings to the benefit of those who have not.... so it is in your interests to ensure everyone makes provision for old age..........

Which is why I keep asking the same boring question.
"If you aren't planning for your future, who is and how are they sourcing the cash?"

Still waiting on answers unfortunately...

coylemj

Drumpot wrote: »

If you don’t have a guaranteed income of €12700 before the age of 75, you are obliged to lock €63,500 in an AMRF in which you have prohibited access.. I don’t want to get into more technical aspects of pensions and was responding to somehody who thought you have to receive your pension in stages.

Yes but that applies as you say to an AMRF which is a different animal.

If you are under 75, you cannot transfer to an ARF unless you can demonstrate a guaranteed income of €12,700 per annum, which can include State pensions. If you are unable to meet this minimum, you must either transfer €63,500 to an Approved Minimum Retirement Fund (AMRF), or purchase an annuity which will bring up your level of guaranteed income to the minimum amount.

https://www.pensionsauthority.ie/en/LifeCycle/Benefits_payable_on_retirement/Approved_Minimum_Retirement_Funds/

Drumpot wrote: »

So I just stated the simple explanation that once you receive full state pension you can Drawdown all your funds.

You may call it a 'simple explanation' but it's too general and for many people it will not apply. It suggests that money in an ARF is locked down until you draw the state pension. Which is only correct under the conditions described above in the case of an AMRF.

Drumpot

coylemj wrote: »

Yes but that applies as you say to an AMRF which is a different animal.

If you are under 75, you cannot transfer to an ARF unless you can demonstrate a guaranteed income of €12,700 per annum, which can include State pensions. If you are unable to meet this minimum, you must either transfer €63,500 to an Approved Minimum Retirement Fund (AMRF), or purchase an annuity which will bring up your level of guaranteed income to the minimum amount.

https://www.pensionsauthority.ie/en/LifeCycle/Benefits_payable_on_retirement/Approved_Minimum_Retirement_Funds/

I do not really understand what your point is here. You said :

coylemj wrote: »

There's no regulatory link between an ARF and the state pension. If you are retiring in your 50s on an occupational pension, you can put money into an ARF and just leave it there or draw from it as you please. Which could be 10 or more years before you get the state pension.

This is innacurate, because you can’t ARF all your funds at 50 if you don’t have €12,700 income (which most people don’t have). And the only way to have a guaranteed income is through state pension or another guaranteed pension/annuity. So there is a regulatory link for most people between their Post retirement options and the state pension.

And like I explained, I was trying to keep the conversation at a basic level because for that sort of technical discussion people should get some advice.

coylemj wrote: »

You may call it a 'simple explanation' but it's too general and for many people it will not apply. It suggests that money in an ARF is locked down until you draw the state pension. Which is only correct under the conditions described above in the case of an AMRF.

People should get professional advice on their pensions.

I’ve been explaining the exact opposite , that people can access their pension completely.

Robert_Beach

GreeBo wrote: »

Which is why I keep asking the same boring question.
"If you aren't planning for your future, who is and how are they sourcing the cash?"

Still waiting on answers unfortunately...

I'm aiming to pay off my mortgage asap. Removing housing costs makes not working much more likely. Aside from that, I'm going to invest in property. I can sort out college accom for my kids and have the guaranteed income from the place in my retirement.

I don't like the thought of contributing to the housing problem but it's better than investing in oil companies which are destroying the planet and weapons manufacturers.

Pensions are bad news but still those of ye who have one, good luck with inflating the worst excesses of capitalism, lining the pockets of financial snakes, having your funds raided by future government.

partyguinness

Jim2007 wrote: »

And you will almost certainly loose. I know this because I've spent a long time observing people's behaviour when it comes to investing. The problem is you are managing your own money and your decisions will be clouded by that fact. The only one I know that I would expect to do well managing his own funds is my son and that's because he has Aspergers so emotion does not come into his decision making process.

It's very rare for an individual over a 30 year period to come out with anything more that what he put it. Swiss pensions are among the most highly regulated in the world and it is why the average Swiss has a very nice pot when they hit retirement age - they don't get to meddle in the pension.

So unless you have so called Aspergers you are incapable of making good investments on your own behalf. Right. :rolleyes:

coylemj

Drumpot wrote: »

This is innacurate, because you can’t ARF all your funds at 50 if you don’t have €12,700 income (which most people don’t have). And the only way to have a guaranteed income is through state pension or another guaranteed pension/annuity.

I specifically referenced people retiring on an occupational pension. Even on the 'average industrial wage' and retiring on a 33% pension, you would meet the qualification.

coylemj wrote: »

If you are retiring in your 50s on an occupational pension, you can put money into an ARF and just leave it there or draw from it as you please.

partyguinness

GreeBo wrote: »

So like hell will you accept a free 50% loan on your contributions?

How much are you planning to save yourself to cover those 10-15 years?
What is your plan here?
How much will you save/invest per month?
Whats your target savings pot?
How much time will you spend on managing those investments and migrating them to less volatile forms as you get closer to retirement?
How knowledgeable are you at the moment regarding the investment market?

That's for me to know. As I said, I do not need some commission driven slim ball telling me what I should and should not do. I do have the benefit of a top level education and professional qualifications. I am all good thanks. That is the risk I take and on my head.

Robert_Beach

Robert_Beach wrote: »

Pensions are bad news but still those of ye who have one, good luck with inflating the worst excesses of capitalism, lining the pockets of financial snakes, having your funds raided by future government.

each of these ills far more likely to affect you investing in property imo

Dodge

Robert_Beach wrote: »

I'm aiming to pay off my mortgage asap. Removing housing costs makes not working much more likely. Aside from that, I'm going to invest in property. I can sort out college accom for my kids and have the guaranteed income from the place in my retirement.

I don't like the thought of contributing to the housing problem but it's better than investing in oil companies which are destroying the planet and weapons manufacturers.

Pensions are bad news but still those of ye who have one, good luck with inflating the worst excesses of capitalism, lining the pockets of financial snakes, having your funds raided by future government.

Ethics lessons from a wannabe property investor is a good one

Drumpot

coylemj wrote: »

I specifically referenced people retiring on an occupational pension. Even on the 'average industrial wage' and retiring on a 33% pension, you would meet the qualification.

The statement “Retiring on an occupational pension” means nothing on its own. You need to differentiate between a guaranteed income (maybe a DB pension) and a defined contribution pension that can be an occupational pension.

Most people don’t get such a pension in their 50s so it’s mostly irrelevant. I don’t know anybody other then public servants who can have a guaranteed Pension of over €12,700 in their 50s and most defined benefit pensions are gone or don’t start that early.

GreeBo

partyguinness wrote: »

So unless you have so called Aspergers you are incapable of making good investments on your own behalf. Right. :rolleyes:

No, but unless you are ridiculously lucky or can invest your own money dispassionately you will lose money.

If you don't believe this, take a look at the number of people who lose money playing the stockmarket vs those who win.

Robert_Beach wrote: »

I'm aiming to pay off my mortgage asap. Removing housing costs makes not working much more likely. Aside from that, I'm going to invest in property. I can sort out college accom for my kids and have the guaranteed income from the place in my retirement.

Ah, so your genius financial plan is to pay off the cheapest loan is it possible to get as quickly as you can, rather than avail of a 50% interest free loan from the government?
Has it ever occurred to you to keep paying off your mortgage with its stupid cheap rates and rather than overpay, invest that money into your pension where you get to double it for free?
Then when you retire, use a lump sum to pay off your mortgage if you so wish?

I don't like the thought of contributing to the housing problem but it's better than investing in oil companies which are destroying the planet and weapons manufacturers.

So ethical when it suits you. Gotcha.

Pensions are bad news but still those of ye who have one, good luck with inflating the worst excesses of capitalism, lining the pockets of financial snakes, having your funds raided by future government.

The only reason our funds will be raided is to pay for people like you who dont have a pension.

KyussB

Jim2007 wrote: »

You clearly have not got the foggiest idea of how state pensions work. They are pay as you go systems. There is noting to invest because every thing that comes in and then sum goes back out. And as the population gets older there will be fewer people to pay in and more people to take out.

Talking about ethical investing, when you have NOTHING to invest just shows who far from grasping the actual problem you are.

Except you know that state pensions is not what was being discussed, there - you're deliberately pretending that it was, knowing that it wasn't, for rhetorical effect.

GreeBo

partyguinness wrote: »

That's for me to know. As I said, I do not need some commission driven slim ball telling me what I should and should not do. I do have the benefit of a top level education and professional qualifications. I am all good thanks. That is the risk I take and on my head.

Awww...please share the super secret trick to winning at the stock market...people all over Ireland are using this simple trick RIGHT NOW!

partyguinness

GreeBo wrote: »

Awww...please share the super secret trick to winning at the stock market...people all over Ireland are using this simple trick RIGHT NOW!

Who said anything about the stock market?

KyussB

GreeBo wrote: »

Afraid not chief, *you* (the one making the outlandish claims) need to show us that *all* pensions funds are unethical.


Yeah, it's just me and all the other rational people in the world.


You havent answered the most basic of questions.
How does the government fund your utopian idea of free money for everyone?

BTW, how is it ethical to not plan to support your own future via a private pension?

As I predicted: You refuse to state what pension fund you're invested in, because you know full well it's invested in a fuckload of unethical companies - you want me to 'prove' your pension is unethical, without even stating what pension fund it is!

Anyone can see you are deliberately withholding, because you know it contains unethical investments.

You're deliberately mischaracterizing what I wrote, and deliberately pretending I haven't discussed at length (like, practically all of yesterday), funding of pubic pensions.

You've whittled your posts down to pure rhetoric - where you're not actually engaging with anythhing I'm posting - just trying to piss at it because you dislike it, and haven't anything better to say.

Robert_Beach

GreeBo wrote: »

So ethical when it suits you. Gotcha.

Yeah, I have a smartphone ego I can't be concerned with climate change or wars. Thanks for that, better start pumping money into Raytheon and hoping that Israel and Iran start slugging it out! And dumping money into fossil fuels, Drill baby, Drill!

Cheers for the heads up!

KyussB

GreeBo wrote: »

Is it really?
I refer you to my previous questions...can you eat ethics? Will it they keep you warm at night? Does your car run on ethics?

Do you think people are thick enough to believe in a False Dichotomy, where the choice is Unethical Investments vs Being a Pauper?

Presenting such a vacuous scenario, just shows everyone in the thread that you're deliberately engaging dishonestly - and only want to fling shit.

kippy

KyussB wrote: »

As I predicted: You refuse to state what pension fund you're invested in, because you know full well it's invested in a fuckload of unethical companies - you want me to 'prove' your pension is unethical, without even stating what pension fund it is!

Anyone can see you are deliberately withholding, because you know it contains unethical investments.

You're deliberately mischaracterizing what I wrote, and deliberately pretending I haven't discussed at length (like, practically all of yesterday), funding of pubic pensions.

You've whittled your posts down to pure rhetoric - where you're not actually engaging with anythhing I'm posting - just trying to piss at it because you dislike it, and haven't anything better to say.

Pretty much any investment in any organisation with the purposes of solely making a profit is unethical - if you are willing to take the definition right down to the wire.

Not sure what the point of this tangent is really.

KyussB

Jim2007 wrote: »

People have been talking a lot here about ME and my pension. But there is a very important social aspect to a pension - if we don't ensure that everyone is saving and making provision for their old age, then we will end up having to share our pension savings with them!

If there is a large section of the population without adequate pensions, then you can expect they will elect politicians what will leaving and tax your savings to the benefit of those who have not.... so it is in your interests to ensure everyone makes provision for old age..........

Or we can have proper social supports and a properly structured public pension funded by government spending - which is not equivalent to 1:1 funding from taxes - so that nobody's private pensions need to be dipped into at all...

There is already a political consensus that we need such a social safety net - we simply need to protect that now, by not falling for the Divide and Conquer shite that finance industry shills perpetuate, pretending that pensioners gains in the future, are workers losses - when that is total bollocks.

KyussB

Dodge wrote: »

Ethics lessons from a wannabe property investor is a good one

The same posters thanking this, thanked a post advising rental properties as an ethical investment - seems like those posters thanking, flip-flop all over the place whenever it suits their argument.

KyussB

kippy wrote: »

Pretty much any investment in any organisation with the purposes of solely making a profit is unethical - if you are willing to take the definition right down to the wire.

Not sure what the point of this tangent is really.

Even though I don't agree with you there - you do realize the overall position you're advocating, is to fuck away all ethical concerns?

People don't need to be 'perfect' ethically, to have valid and practical ethical concerns...