Kildare farmer objects to €8bn Intel investment...

Buford T. Justice XIX

ShlugEireann wrote: »

If it made sense long term they wouldn't care about the costs involved.

They added 1bn on a whim to their capital budget for additional 14nm capacity and they started construction immediately in a number of locations where 14nm is made (including Ireland).

Tbh, I don't think you understand the investment protocols carried out by these companies.

Shefwedfan

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Deciding to invest billions of dollars in building a new plant in not a whim.

For intel etc it is? They could invest and in 6 months time something changes and they will write it off and open another plant in some other country

How much will the government put up towards it as well

MrMusician18

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It’s not ok for the banks to throw someone out of their house when they don’t pay.....a house the bank owns till the last payment

But it is ok for Intel? When the person is fully paid up and owns the land

What sort of a crazy world do we live in

Intel are not trying to put this man off his land. That battle is over. This development has no impact on him or his farm.

So what is motivating him? Have a think about it.

There is almost certainly going to be planning reform now in this country and the ability to object and appeal is going to be further curtailed. The system is set up on a kind of honour system in that you shouldn't object unless you feel you have a valid objection. In fact it used to be free until we had a couple of cranks going around the country objecting to everything. The system is not meant to be used to settle scores, retribution or vengeance.

And there will be public support for these changes as a consequence of objections to the like of Apple and Intel. We will all lose as a result.

Call me Al

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Don’t be so dramatic

All I’m saying is we don’t have to bend over backwards to every whim they have

Poster is not being dramatic at all.
Their decision to invest billions in the newest processing technology is not a whim either. They employ thousands of people in well paid jobs and sustain multiple '000s more jobs.

I'm glad Mr Reid won his case back in 2015. His cause was a just one. But I think at this stage his objections to the new development, which don't infringe on his property rights, are vexatious. I believe that planning authorities will see them for what they are.

Re his living conditions and mental health, well that is his own business, but if things don't change a point will come as he gets older where his home will become uninhabitable. At the moment i think it is a tinder box.

@MrMusician

@MrMusician

They treated him like a piece of crap thinking they could walk all over him.

Firstly, intel went directly to him wanting to buy his land and he said no.

Then, the IDA attempted to CPO his land and the courts found that was not in their powers.

The barrister for IDA let the cat out of the bag in knowing that intel had approached him first. How would they know that if the CPO was meant to be separate to intel?

MrMusician18

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

@MrMusician

They treated him like a piece of crap thinking they could walk all over him.

Firstly, intel went directly to him wanting to buy his land and he said no.

Then, the IDA attempted to CPO his land and the courts found that was not in their powers.

The barrister for IDA let the cat out of the bag in knowing that intel had approached him first. How would they know that if the CPO was meant to be separate to intel?

And what has that for to do with Intel wanting to expand on their own land now, away from him and his farm? That battle is over, it's time to move on.

MrMusician18

MrMusician18 wrote: »

And what has that for to do with Intel wanting to expand on their own land now, away from him and his farm? That battle is over, it's time to move on.

If they didn’t try to be so underhand with him then maybe they’d have their expansion already. They made life difficult for him so he’s doing the same to them. More power to the man.

MrMusician18

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

If they didn’t try to be so underhand with him then maybe they’d have their expansion already. They made life difficult for him so he’s doing the same to them. More power to the man.

So your saying that his complaint is vexatious?

How long should someone be allowed to frustrate someone else even after they've had court judgement in their favour? Should we be allowing the planning process to be used in such a way?

Seth Brundle

MrMusician18 wrote: »

And what has that for to do with Intel wanting to expand on their own land now, away from him and his farm? That battle is over, it's time to move on.

People are fully entitled to object to developments on their neighbours property if they feel it affects them.
Reid is doing just that. It is his right in the same way it is mine and yours.
If the planners feel that the objection is not justified then fine, it doesn't affect the development. If his objection is justified then Intel and their planning team should have prepared their plans more appropriately.

This idea that Intel or any large company should have the right to develop in any way they want is ridiculous. It is not good for society to be under constant threat from a large employer who will up sticks and leave because they don't get exactly what they want.

If Reid's objection threatens Intel's long term plans in Ireland then that says more about Intel than Reid or his objection. People just don't want to see the wood for the trees sometimes!

Boggles

MrMusician18 wrote: »

So your saying that his complaint is vexatious?

If anyone is entitled to a vexatious complaint, it's certainly him. God knows what damage they have done to him.

But he doesn't think it is vexatious, he thinks they will come for his land again.

He is probably right.

_Brian

Boggles wrote: »

If anyone is entitled to a vexatious complaint, it's certainly him. God knows what damage they have done to him.

But he doesn't think it is vexatious, he thinks they will come for his land again.

He is probably right.

I think we’d all have a bit of sopite in us after his treatment.

Hasn’t he objected to loads of intel development and not just this one ?

Boggles

_Brian wrote: »

I think we’d all have a bit of sopite in us after his treatment.

Hasn’t he objected to loads of intel development and not just this one ?

I certainly would.

But he says he isn't doing it out of spite, he has a genuine fear they will come again for his land.

Perfectly reasonable assumption IMO.

MrMusician18

Seth Brundle wrote: »

People are fully entitled to object to developments on their neighbours property if they feel it affects them.
Reid is doing just that. It is his right in the same way it is mine and yours.
If the planners feel that the objection is not justified then fine, it doesn't affect the development. If his objection is justified then Intel and their planning team should have prepared their plans more appropriately.

This idea that Intel or any large company should have the right to develop in any way they want is ridiculous. It is not good for society to be under constant threat from a large employer who will up sticks and leave because they don't get exactly what they want.

If Reid's objection threatens Intel's long term plans in Ireland then that says more about Intel than Reid or his objection. People just don't want to see the wood for the trees sometimes!

Speaking in generalities,I'm not making the argument that anyone should be able to develop in any way they please but that objections are well founded and reasonable. Objecting in order to delay or frustrate a development is an abuse of process. That is true even if you have been wronged by the developer in the past.

Everyone has the right to object but no one has the right to object on vexatious grounds. I personally would like to see anyone found to be objecting on those grounds be made to fully pay for the costs incurred resulting from the delays. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like some former foe, not directly impacted, objecting to a house extension you might build?

end of the road

MrMusician18 wrote: »

No it isn't. The common good must be considered and win out.

As long as he is compensated fairly then there is no issue as far as I'm concerned. Id have no problem with my property being CPO'd

the common good does win out. in this case it was the common good of the citizens of the country as a whole and their property rights, at the expense of a private company and the IDA'S wants. the absolutely correct outcome. jobs are important but not at any cost and not at the expense of the rights of the citizen.

Boggles

MrMusician18 wrote: »

.
Everyone has the right to object but no one has the right to object on vexatious grounds.

I agree, but where is your proof this guy is objecting on vexatious grounds, something you seem to be stating as fact.

Seth Brundle

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Speaking in generalities,I'm not making the argument that anyone should be able to develop in any way they please but that objections are well founded and reasonable. Objecting in order to delay or frustrate a development is an abuse of process. That is true even if you have been wronged by the developer in the past.

Everyone has the right to object but no one has the right to object on vexatious grounds. I personally would like to see anyone found to be objecting on those grounds be made to fully pay for the costs incurred resulting from the delays. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like some former foe, not directly impacted, objecting to a house extension you might build?

You're assuming that Reid is objecting purely to frustrate and delay for revenge reasons.
That's a big assumption. My understanding is that he has genuine concerns. Is an objection not reasonable on this basis?

satguy

How many new jobs is this man holding up ?
How much Tax would 4 or 5 hundred workers pay ?
How many of our graduate sons and daughters would love to work there ?
How can guys like him and the ones that held up the apple data center sleep at night ?

end of the road

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Intel are not trying to put this man off his land. That battle is over. This development has no impact on him or his farm.

So what is motivating him? Have a think about it.

There is almost certainly going to be home planning reform now in this country and the ability to object and appeal is gold to be further curtailed. The system is set up on a kind of honour system in that you shouldn't object unless you feel you have a valid objection. In fact it used to be free until we had a couple of cranks going around the country objecting to everything. The system is not meant to be used to settle scores, retribution or vengeance.

And there will be public support for these changes as a consequence of objections to the like of Apple and Intel. We will all lose as a result.

neither of those are something i would bank on.
even if there is public support for more restrictions on objections, that support may not be as much as you may think or would hope for. especially if such changes are on the basis of this case.

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Speaking in generalities,I'm not making the argument that anyone should be able to develop in any way they please but that objections are well founded and reasonable. Objecting in order to delay or frustrate a development is an abuse of process. That is true even if you have been wronged by the developer in the past.

Everyone has the right to object but no one has the right to object on vexatious grounds. I personally would like to see anyone found to be objecting on those grounds be made to fully pay for the costs incurred resulting from the delays. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like some former foe, not directly impacted, objecting to a house extension you might build?

objections that are not valid are struck out. the system works.

Boggles

satguy wrote: »

How can guys like him and the ones that help up the apple data center sleep at night ?

He couldn't for 6 years apparently.

Illegal land grabs would do that to a person I imagine.

But fúck him right?

Seth Brundle

satguy wrote: »

How many new jobs is this man holding up ?
How much Tax would 4 or 5 hundred workers pay ?
How many of our graduate sons and daughters would love to work there ?
How can guys like him and the ones that help up the apple data center sleep at night ?

He is not holding up any jobs.
He is participating in a process that exists to ensure appropriate development. Intel are not above the law in terms of the planning process.
Reid is doing absolutely nothing wrong!

MrMusician18

Boggles wrote: »

I agree, but where is your proof this guy is objecting on vexatious grounds, something you seem to be stating as fact.

I didn't say that, that was you. In fact you said he was objecting because he thought they would come for his land again, which is an unrelated matter to the development under consideration.

As far as I remember his observation for this development was on natura 2000/ environmental grounds.

end of the road

satguy wrote: »

How many new jobs is this man holding up ?
How much Tax would 4 or 5 hundred workers pay ?
How many of our graduate sons and daughters would love to work there ?
How can guys like him and the ones that help up the apple data center sleep at night ?

i hope thomas reid does sleep well at night, every night.

MrMusician18

satguy wrote: »

How many new jobs is this man holding up ?
How much Tax would 4 or 5 hundred workers pay ?
How many of our graduate sons and daughters would love to work there ?
How can guys like him and the ones that help up the apple data center sleep at night ?

If Intel can't put their new fab in place, the operation will wind down completely. 5000 jobs including support jobs will go.

Seth Brundle

MrMusician18 wrote: »

If Intel can't put their new fab in place, the operation will wind down completely. 5000 jobs including support jobs will go.

If Intel don't get to build the new fab as a result of this objection then the objection is valid. If the fab doesn't get permission then it is Intel's fault, not Reid's!
How do you not understand that?

n97 mini

satguy wrote: »

How many new jobs is this man holding up ?
How much Tax would 4 or 5 hundred workers pay ?
How many of our graduate sons and daughters would love to work there ?
How can guys like him and the ones that help up the apple data center sleep at night ?

All citizens are equal. We can't disenfranchise one so that others can benefit.

Shefwedfan

satguy wrote: »

How many new jobs is this man holding up ?
How much Tax would 4 or 5 hundred workers pay ?
How many of our graduate sons and daughters would love to work there ?
How can guys like him and the ones that help up the apple data center sleep at night ?

Well hopefully they sleep soundly

Nothing better than a good nights sleep

Boggles

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I didn't say that, that was you.

What did you mean by this so?

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Intel are not trying to put this man off his land. That battle is over. This development has no impact on him or his farm.

So what is motivating him? Have a think about it.

MrMusician18 wrote: »

In fact you said he was objecting because he thought they would come for his land again, which is an unrelated matter to the development under consideration.

As far as I remember his observation for this development was on natura 2000/ environmental grounds.

For him it's a very real and related matter.

I imagine he is thinking 10/15 years down the line with law changes and further expansion and another knock on the door from some arrogant fat prick telling him to lawyer up we are taking your land. Of course he can't object on those grounds.

Reid is not the bad guy in this however way you want to paint him to be.

He was bullied for 6 years and stood for himself, we need more like him.

People who value what they have above money are very dangerous and very necessary.

NIMAN

ShlugEireann wrote: »

And is it really good to have such a single mammoth employer? If Intel left tomorrow (which could easily happen) the whole area would collapse.

They could all start working on clearing out Thomas' living room, its a bloody mess.

That would keep the 5000 busy for a while.

jmayo

satguy wrote: »

How many new jobs is this man holding up ?
How much Tax would 4 or 5 hundred workers pay ?
How many of our graduate sons and daughters would love to work there ?
How can guys like him and the ones that help up the apple data center sleep at night ?

The Irish are often so easily bought.

You would love China.
Hell you would love the US where huge corporations have walked all over the citizens for decades.
Hell they have even polluted their ground water giving them cancer and then give the finger to them when they look for redress.
And no I am not saying intel gave anyone cancer or polluted anywhere.
But they have adopted the bully boy tactics so often used by other giant corporations.

I also wonder how many of the ones screaming about how intel might up sticks also believe we should screw our only truly indigenous industry over carbon creation. :rolleyes:

Deebles McBeebles

NIMAN wrote: »

They could all start working on clearing out Thomas' living room, its a bloody mess.

That would keep the 5000 busy for a while.

You leave his documents alone, he knows where everything is now.

Shefwedfan

jmayo wrote: »

The Irish are often so easily bought.

You would love China.
Hell you would love the US where huge corporations have walked all over the citizens for decades.
Hell they have even polluted their ground water giving them cancer and then give the finger to them when they look for redress.
And no I am not saying intel gave anyone cancer or polluted anywhere.
But they have adopted the bully boy tactics so often used by other giant corporations.

I also wonder how many of the ones screaming about how intel might up sticks also believe we should screw our only truly indigenous industry over carbon creation. :rolleyes:

Easily and cheaply as well

Deebles McBeebles

jmayo wrote: »

The Irish are often so easily bought.

I would be curious to see how many people supporting Intel in this case were also welcoming of Trump when he arrived in Doonbeg.

MrMusician18

Boggles wrote: »

What did you mean by this so?





For him it's a very real and related matter.

I imagine he is thinking 10/15 years down the line with law changes and further expansion and another knock on the door from some arrogant fat prick telling him to lawyer up we are taking your land. Of course he can't object on those grounds.

Reid is not the bad guy in this however way you want to paint him to be.

He was bullied for 6 years and stood for himself, we need more like him.

People who value what they have above money are very dangerous and very necessary.

I asked you what was motivating him, you could've replied it was concern for the environment as per his observation but you responded that it was his fear that they would try and take his land again. That fear is unrelated to the proposed development.

I'm glad he made his stand and was vindicated in the courts. Reid is not the bad guy for standing up for himself.

Boggles

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I asked you what was motivating him, you could've replied it was concern for the environment as per his observation but you responded that it was his fear that they would try and take his land again. That fear is unrelated to the proposed development.

He was telling the truth when asked the question, he can't put that down as an objection, so he has to object on other grounds. How do you know what their long term plan is?

His fear is very real and no way being done out of spite, why do I know that? Because he said so and I think he is an honest man.

MrMusician18

Seth Brundle wrote: »

If Intel don't get to build the new fab as a result of this objection then the objection is valid. If the fab doesn't get permission then it is Intel's fault, not Reid's!
How do you not understand that?

I understand that. If the objection is valid ABP will rule so and that will be the end of the matter.

Again speaking in generalities and not with specific reference to this case it is possible to draw out a planning process for so long that a commercial decision will need to be made before the process can be completed. Perhaps that is the fault of the system and again stressing that I'm not saying that this is the intention here, but individuals can play the system to their benefit as they too know that this commercial pressure exists. Or it can happen unintentionally as well.

In the case of a housing developer, it is known that they have only limited time to access borrowings from a bank. If an individual objects and continues to object knowing that they just have to run down the clock and not actually get a judgement in their favour to stop the development, one would have to ask if that is fair?

InTheShadows

satguy wrote: »

How many new jobs is this man holding up ?
How much Tax would 4 or 5 hundred workers pay ?
How many of our graduate sons and daughters would love to work there ?
How can guys like him and the ones that held up the apple data center sleep at night ?

The man has rights. I have no interest living in a country that operates akin to the Chinese state. I'd rather live in a society than an economy.

threeball

MrMusician18 wrote: »

No it isn't. The common good must be considered and win out.

As long as he is compensated fairly then there is no issue as far as I'm concerned. Id have no problem with my property being CPO'd

You'd have a problem if it was all you had in the world and would never work another day.
The common good isn't being served here. Just the greed of a few

Stacksofwacks

satguy wrote: »

How many new jobs is this man holding up ?
How much Tax would 4 or 5 hundred workers pay ?
How many of our graduate sons and daughters would love to work there ?
How can guys like him and the ones that held up the apple data center sleep at night ?

How many new jobs is this man holding up ? He is a private landowner who dosen't want to sell his farm, not his problem

How much Tax would 4 or 5 hundred workers pay ? I'm sure there's an app somewhere to work that out

How many of our graduate sons and daughters would love to work there Our beloved graduate sons and daughters don't have the absolute right to work anywhere, particularly not on Thomas Reid's farm

How can guys like him and the ones that held up the apple data center sleep at night ?


How can anyone who lives by free market rules and regulations sleep well at night

HopsAndJumps

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

How many new jobs is this man holding up ? He is a private landowner who dosen't want to sell his farm, not his problem

How much Tax would 4 or 5 hundred workers pay ? I'm sure there's an app somewhere to work that out

How many of our graduate sons and daughters would love to work there Our beloved graduate sons and daughters don't have the absolute right to work anywhere, particularly not on Thomas Reid's farm

How can guys like him and the ones that held up the apple data center sleep at night ?


How can anyone who lives by free market rules and regulations sleep well at night

He is not being asked to sell his farm. Though his objection is holding up construction, so yes he is holding up jobs.



its more than 4/5 hundred jobs. 1800 full time Intel workers. approximately 1500 construction workers and a few more thousand Intel support staff.

satguy

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

How many of our graduate sons and daughters would love to work there Our beloved graduate sons and daughters don't have the absolute right to work anywhere, particularly not on Thomas Reid's farm

Just wait till your graduate sons and daughters are driving an UBER Taxi,, because there are no good graduate jobs for them.

Maybe Thomas Reid will hire them on his farm to pick spuds.

MrMusician18

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

[B]How many new jobs is this man holding up ? He is a private landowner who dosen't want to sell his farm, not his problem[/B]

How much Tax would 4 or 5 hundred workers pay ? I'm sure there's an app somewhere to work that out

How many of our graduate sons and daughters would love to work there Our beloved graduate sons and daughters don't have the absolute right to work anywhere, particularly not on Thomas Reid's farm

How can guys like him and the ones that held up the apple data center sleep at night ?


How can anyone who lives by free market rules and regulations sleep well at night

They are not after his land, not any more at least. He fought the IDA and won.

The issue is that he's objected to the new Fab and consequently the planning process had been extended. There are fears not that planning will be rejected, but that the process will take so long, especially if goes to court after ABP, that Intel will get tired of waiting and go somewhere else that has less planning hassle.

Has to be said that there is no evidence that the process will be dragged out beyond ABP process like the apple athenry saga.

If Intel get fed up and not upgraded, Leixlip will almost certainly be run down over the next few years and closed as its fabrication technology becomes outdated. The new factory secures it's future for about 8-10 years.

Stacksofwacks

satguy wrote: »

Just wait till your graduate sons and daughters are driving an UBER Taxi,, because there are no good graduate jobs for them.

Maybe Thomas Reid will hire them on his farm to pick spuds.

Thats a government/IDA issue, not Thomas Reid's issue

satguy

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

Thats a government/IDA issue, not Thomas Reid's issue

You might need to rethink that.

If we keep letting high paid jobs go overseas,, Tommy's spuds will all we can afford to eat.

endacl

satguy wrote: »

Tommy's spuds will all we can afford to eat.

You seem fixated on the spuds he doesn’t grow.

Stacksofwacks

satguy wrote: »

You might need to rethink that.

If we keep letting high paid jobs go overseas,, Tommy's spuds will all we can afford to eat.

Why would we be letting jobs go overseas, if companies want to invest here I'm sure there's plenty of people will to sell up a plot of land at the right price. I know I wouldnt have any problem, for that kind of money I'd be on the first plane to las Vegas, but thats just me and I aint Thomas Ried

HopsAndJumps

The objection delays the permission by 6 months. That's a big hit to Intel.

There is very little substance in his objection. its about 11 pages of ranting, here is a snip of one of the pages. :rolleyes:

Boggles

So what did the attempted heist cost us?

Must have been north of 2 million.

Anyone from the IDA dragged in to explain why they tried to illegally take a farm of a land off a law abiding citizen?

Plumbthedepths

HopsAndJumps wrote:

The objection delays the permission by 6 months. That's a big hit to Intel.

Imagine if Intel and the IDA had left this man alone after he rejected the initial offer. No court case, no serial objections. But they didn't so as far as I concerned once he's within the law Reid should object every opportunity he gets and appeal if his objection is over ruled. Old proverb ' reap what you sow'.

Shefwedfan

satguy wrote: »

Just wait till your graduate sons and daughters are driving an UBER Taxi,, because there are no good graduate jobs for them.

Maybe Thomas Reid will hire them on his farm to pick spuds.

At the moment Ireland cannot supply enough qualified staff for these job

Go to any of the multi national companies and they have loads of open positions and no staff to fill the
Most of them are bringing in people from all over the world to fill them

Boggles

Shefwedfan wrote: »

At the moment Ireland cannot supply enough qualified staff for these job

Go to any of the multi national companies and they have loads of open positions and no staff to fill the
Most of them are bringing in people from all over the world to fill them

Actually there is a thriving legal industry at the moment in fast tracking Visa's for Non Eu citizens to get them into the tech jobs.