Sex education in schools!

Hotblack Desiato

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s right there in the introduction to the Act -


An Act to guarantee the right of students to receive
factual and objective relationships and sexuality education without regard to the characteristic spirit of the school.

"Students" is referring to the student body as a whole, not individuals and any legislation which interfered with parents' rights in the way you are suggesting woud not be constitutional.

The introduction to the act has no legal force. It's just an introduction.

Your posts are nonsensical and scaremongering.

I don’t know do you actually understand what the principle of acting in the best interests of the child means, it’s not an objective standard for starters.

There absolutely are objective measures of outcomes.

It is a proven fact that unvaccinated children have worse health outcomes.

It is a proven fact that children who receive no sex education or "abstinence only" go on to have worse outcomes in relation to STIs and unwanted pregnancy.

I have no doubt you wouldn’t want anyone telling you how to raise your own child. You should surely be able to understand where other parents who do not share your values are coming from then. They’re coming from the same place you are, they just don’t share your perspective on how they should raise their own children who are not your children.

I'm not looking to remove their right to withdraw their child from aspects of their education they disagree with. I would be rather stupid and hypocritical if I did do so, as I rely on exactly the same right to withdraw my children from religious instruction.

freshpopcorn

freshpopcorn wrote: »

When I was in secondary school it was very basic in SPHE. Basically wear a condom to help prevent pregnancy/STD's/etc.
We also had sex education at the end of primary school.
They could have of course went into more detail but I felt most people got the message.


How do you think sex education should be taught in schools?

As a matter of interest I think a timeline would be helpful here, just to keep things in context. For example, you might think yours was basic, but i can assure you it sounds vastly more comprehensive to anything I ever got.

1987, age 14, who do you think it fell to for my sex "education"? Science teacher? Biology teacher? PE teacher maybe? Of course not, it was the religion teacher!

The one single lesson consisted of some "guide books" - sorry, I don't know what else to call them, they were handed out at our desks but we were explicitly warned not to open them for some unexplained reason - while the religion teacher lectured us that the best way to avoid catching AIDS was to only ever have sex with the heterosexual partner you were married to, starting on your wedding night.

We then watch an animated slide show about changes to the human body between childhood and adulthood. A book of some description, I imagine it was to explain all this in more detail, like I already said was placed on everyone's desk. We are NOT allowed to open this book (lest it distract us from the Jesus Show) and are NOT allowed to take it home overnight lest we jizzed all over the cartoons or something.

"Any questions?" she asks. "Not today though, write them down on a piece of paper and I'll deal with them next class. Bye now."

Five minutes before the next class one guy says to the rest of us, "lads, I'll bet you all she's gonna do ANYTHING to get out of this and finish the class as soon as she can. She'll say as soon as she hears one 'juvenile snigger' that none of us can be trusted, and then get back to some gospel or whatever".

And sure enough that's exactly how it played out. The first words out of her mouth were that if anyone so much as smiles the lesson is over on the spot. Everyone looks at each other rolling their eyes, shrugging their shoulders, and going "I knew it, told you so, any BS excuse" and so on.

True to her word, she sees the reaction and "here endeth the lesson", never ever to return to it. Not just with her, not with any teacher in any class for the remainder of our time in school. She may as well have closed the lesson with the words "go forth into a life of herpes, chlamydia, and teenage pregnancy" for all the good this so called education was for anyone.

Contraception by the way when someone asked was described as not trying to avoid getting pregnant, just have sex with who you are married to.

ToddyDoody

For us sex ed was in religion. It wasn't very juicy, so to speak. It had a moral tone to it and the nitty gritty bits were done by reading the text ourselves in silence.

Sex ed was also covered in science. We had a video on it. (a kind of 70s blue chalkboard production) This one had all the subtlety of a bus crashing into a wall. It showed you the male penis in aroused amd unarosed form in the space of 45 seconds then drilled dowm into its component parts. It was quite funny.

pekitivey

Some very funny vids on YouTube of parents teaching their kids the birds and the bees

Paul Lee

I've already had chats with my children's two school headmasters about this and at least one of them isn't listening, (as far as reports from one of my kids is concerned). They're only in primary FFS! I'm going to have another more robust exchange with that headmaster this year.

Why are parents not automatically sent information on this? If we're going to have our kids brainwashed, shouldn't these perverts at least have the decency to let us know what garbage they're going to feed them?

Anyone know of any groups interested in fighting against State Sponsored Perverts Brainwashing Bill?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Paul Lee wrote: »

I've already had chats with my children's two school headmasters about this and at least one of them isn't listening, (as far as reports from one of my kids is concerned). They're only in primary FFS! I'm going to have another more robust exchange with that headmaster this year.

Why are parents not automatically sent information on this? If we're going to have our kids brainwashed, shouldn't these perverts at least have the decency to let us know what garbage they're going to feed them?

Anyone know of any groups interested in fighting against State Sponsored Perverts Brainwashing Bill?

Wait - who's brainwashing the perverts here? Bill? Who's Bill?

IAMAMORON

Paul Lee wrote: »

I've already had chats with my children's two school headmasters about this and at least one of them isn't listening, (as far as reports from one of my kids is concerned). They're only in primary FFS! I'm going to have another more robust exchange with that headmaster this year.

Why are parents not automatically sent information on this? If we're going to have our kids brainwashed, shouldn't these perverts at least have the decency to let us know what garbage they're going to feed them?

Anyone know of any groups interested in fighting against State Sponsored Perverts Brainwashing Bill?

You send your kids to school to learn how to learn their 3 R's and have a future. It is up to you as a parent to educate them about their sex lives. I would not be relying on their teachers to let them know the birds and the bees pal. If they tell you about them you have not done your job as a parent.

You wouldn't expect their teachers to let them know about Santa or the tooth fairy, would you now?

Hotblack Desiato

Paul Lee wrote: »

Why are parents not automatically sent information on this? If we're going to have our kids brainwashed, shouldn't these perverts at least have the decency to let us know what garbage they're going to feed them?

It's called "faith formation" I believe.

hatrickpatrick

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You just don’t have the authority to impose your ideological beliefs, values and opinions upon other people, whereas I have never expressed any such wish and would never support any ideology which undermined a parents right to raise their own children according to their beliefs, values and world view.

This paragraph is fundamentally contradictory. Not having the right to impose one's ideological beliefs, values and opinions on others logically precludes the idea of raising one's children with a world view they don't work out and choose for themselves.

Paul Lee

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Wait - who's brainwashing the perverts here? Bill? Who's Bill?

Good questions and I'm glad you asked. Quickly written post which could have been phrased better.

What I should have called it was something like:

The Monumentally ****witted Lunatic Perverts Suicidally Damaging Our Children through National Brainwashing Bill"

Note that the word "Bill" refers to a proposed law. It comes from the Greek word for "Meddling" or "Social Engineering" No, I'm only kidding. Still I'm probably right. I haven't looked it up cos I'm lazy.

While I personally believe strongly in Law and Order, governments generally use new laws to line their own pockets, gain political advantage, or gift power to multinational organisations, corporations etc. to create power structures and monopolies that reduce the power of ordinary people to run their own lives.

The proposed Bill is an outstanding example of just that. Sex has now been politicised just like:

Colours of the Rainbow
The Weather
Minorities
Gender
Pay
Capitalism
Western Civilisation
Meat
Flying in Airplanes
Free Speech
Driving a car
Having Children
Race
Men Sitting Normally (No, I'm not kidding)
Art
Architecture
Theatre
Music
Education
Toilets


I can't think of the rest but I'm sure there's plenty more.


If you think the Government, the EU or any of the mainstream political parties are on your side (I mean you, whether you're left, right, in between, or off the grid) then either you're not paying attention or you are, rationally speaking, an amoeba.

Paul Lee

The blanked out word above is:

F; U; C; K; W; I; T; T; E; D;

One eyed Jack

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This paragraph is fundamentally contradictory. Not having the right to impose one's ideological beliefs, values and opinions on others logically precludes the idea of raising one's children with a world view they don't work out and choose for themselves.

I imagined it was obvious I was talking to adults.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Paul Lee wrote: »

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Wait - who's brainwashing the perverts here? Bill? Who's Bill?

Good questions and I'm glad you asked. Quickly written post which could have been phrased better.

What I should have called it was something like:

The Monumentally ****witted Lunatic Perverts Suicidally Damaging Our Children through National Brainwashing Bill"

Note that the word "Bill" refers to a proposed law. It comes from the Greek word for "Meddling" or "Social Engineering" No, I'm only kidding. Still I'm probably right. I haven't looked it up cos I'm lazy.

While I personally believe strongly in Law and Order, governments generally use new laws to line their own pockets, gain political advantage, or gift power to multinational organisations, corporations etc. to create power structures and monopolies that reduce the power of ordinary people to run their own lives.

The proposed Bill is an outstanding example of just that. Sex has now been politicised just like:

Colours of the Rainbow
The Weather
Minorities
Gender
Pay
Capitalism
Western Civilisation
Meat
Flying in Airplanes
Free Speech
Driving a car
Having Children
Race
Men Sitting Normally (No, I'm not kidding)
Art
Architecture
Theatre
Music
Education
Toilets


I can't think of the rest but I'm sure there's plenty more.


If you think the Government, the EU or any of the mainstream political parties are on your side (I mean you, whether you're left, right, in between, or off the grid) then either you're not paying attention or you are, rationally speaking, an amoeba.

Think you might have posted that I'm the wrong thread?

Not disagreeing with most of it, just not seeing the relevant connection to the topic

Greyfox

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I would not be relying on their teachers to let them know the birds and the bees pal. If they tell you about them you have not done your job as a parent.

That's grand for all the good parents out there. The reason sex education should be in schools is because there will always be loads of rubbish parents out there who will never tell there kids things like Porn and sex are not the same thing

Paul Lee

Yes, because parents are **** we force all kids to get State Mandated brain washing. It would be better if they found out this stuff themselves instead of the State actually shoving porn and sexual confusion down their throats, pardon the pun.

Do you trust these people to get it right? I've read the **** that these PhDs produce regarding consent, lgbt matters etc. The best I can say for them is that they're monumentally bonkers. They write garbage and sell it as if it's some kind of objective fact.

One publication that I was recommended to read by the Coderdojo Foundation (following some questions by myself) was the Encyclopedia of Gender and Society by Jodi O'Brien. I struggled through a lot of it, finding out about how terrible men are, how gender is non-existent and nothing really matters anyway. It was horrendous and depressing. I couldn't find any information in it, just opinions of a mentally unhinged lady with a college degree.

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Encyclopedia_of_Gender_and_Society.html?id=_nyHS4WyUKEC&redir_esc=y

It's all well and dandy when this is a book on a library shelf, but when it starts forming policy for the rest of us I think it's time to start waking up.

Paul Lee

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Think you might have posted that I'm the wrong thread?

Not disagreeing with most of it, just not seeing the relevant connection to the topic

It's relevant because I'm providing context to where this is all coming from and why we need to sit up and take notice. It's not just some isolated issue. It's part of a full scale assault on our society by some extremely nasty people/ groups. Without understanding the context it's impossible to defend against it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Paul Lee wrote: »

It's relevant because I'm providing context to where this is all coming from and why we need to sit up and take notice. It's not just some isolated issue. It's part of a full scale assault on our society by some extremely nasty people/ groups. Without understanding the context it's impossible to defend against it.

So a state-sponsored education is indoctrination, but parental upbringing isn't...?

Paul Lee

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So a state-sponsored education is indoctrination, but parental upbringing isn't...?

Yes, you're right again. It is all brainwashing. I'm brainwashing you by typing these keys.

What we're talking about is who gets to do the brainwashing, and how invasive it is. Personally I tell my kids that ultimately they have to think for themselves and when they're old enough, decide for themselves. However, you can't learn to think for yourself without a set of opinions to work off. I'm providing that for them, and though it's not perfect it's a million times better than the education I received.

In my vast experience of dealing (directly) with the State and reading newspapers, listening to radio, TV, internet etc for forty years, I can quite confidently say that the Government is the most incompetent, corrupt and quite often evil bunch of people you could ever care to meet. To think that they are "on our side" is naive at best, and downright stupid and evil at worst.

So, placing the most precious minds that exist in my world into their wretched hands isn't something I'm too happy about.

Already my young kids know the words Communism, Feminism, Snowflake, Green is Red (Words written on a sign that they saw in town one day.)

and they're aware of some of the agendas being pushed in schools. Already my daughter has highlighted some things I'm very concerned about. She's lucky that she has a parent that understands this s_h_it. Otherwise she and her brother would be very confused about their place in the world. I'd like to think there are others with the same understanding but I despair at our collective stupidity.

Thankfully my kids are happy, well adjusted and strong. That's the main thing, but they need to be protected because they're only kids.

Paul Lee

Greyfox wrote: »

That's grand for all the good parents out there. The reason sex education should be in schools is because there will always be loads of rubbish parents out there who will never tell there kids things like Porn and sex are not the same thing

I agree, but do my kids have to be forced to suffer because other parents are crap?

Insect Overlord

How much sh!t did you smoke in your formative years to make you this paranoid and aggressive?

Irish primary schools follow the Stay Safe programme (for learning how to deal with such things as making friends, inappropriate touching, bullying, neglect, signs of grooming, etc) and usually the Busy Bodies videos for education on the fundamentals of sex.

Questions about gender roles, sexualities, pornography, and sexual acts outside of penis-in-vagina aren't dealt with in primary school. It's supposed to be age-appropriate at each key stage. How are you not aware of this, "as a parent"?

Paul Lee

Insect Overlord wrote: »

How much sh!t did you smoke in your formative years to make you this paranoid and aggressive?

Irish primary schools follow the Stay Safe programme (for learning how to deal with such things as making friends, inappropriate touching, bullying, neglect, signs of grooming, etc) and usually the Busy Bodies videos for education on the fundamentals of sex.

Questions about gender roles, sexualities, pornography, and sexual acts outside of penis-in-vagina aren't dealt with in primary school. It's supposed to be age-appropriate at each key stage. How are you not aware of this, "as a parent"?

Yes, as a parent I've met personally with headmasters for a number of chats. I had the stay safe programme provided to me- I shouldn't have had to ask- Admittedly I do need to read it more thoroughly, but it's not what I'm concerned about.

We're talking about what's proposed, which is mandatory and is prescribed as being "gender neutral", "age appropriate" There is no supporting documentation which explains what these phrases mean. Knowing who's proposing the bill (For example Paul Murphy who talked about men having babies) and politicians who are actively harming society like Varadkar, Zappone (who don't have children themselves) and that other lunatic Dr Death himself Simon Harris.

Forgive me for being aggressive when it comes to protecting my children, you're absolutely right. It's called giving a damn.

Do you have kids yourself?

buckwheat

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

That priest was sacked soon after though.

Did he not just get moved to Donegal? Maybe it was Leitrim.

hatrickpatrick

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I imagined it was obvious I was talking to adults.

Why should a distinction be made? Personal morality should be just that, personal. I'm all for parents expressing their opinions about issues of personal morality when educating their children, but I am and always have been completely opposed to the idea that it's ok to present those opinions as fact.

"In my opinion, it's wrong for people to have casual sex, and I don't think you should do it" is fine. "It's wrong for people to have casual sex, and you shouldn't do it", on the other hand, is not. Without the qualifier that such morals are relative, one is engaging in brainwashing, pure and simple.

One eyed Jack

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Why should a distinction be made? Personal morality should be just that, personal. I'm all for parents expressing their opinions about issues of personal morality when educating their children, but I am and always have been completely opposed to the idea that it's ok to present those opinions as fact.

"In my opinion, it's wrong for people to have casual sex, and I don't think you should do it" is fine. "It's wrong for people to have casual sex, and you shouldn't do it", on the other hand, is not. Without the qualifier that such morals are relative, one is engaging in brainwashing, pure and simple.

Brainwashings not really a thing, but apart from that, a distinction is made between us sharing our opinions with each other, and parents instilling their values in their children, on the basis that it is regarded by society as a parents duty and privilege to do so. Now of course I understand that you don’t share that belief, which is fine, you’re an adult and not for example my child, and therefore we don’t have the same duty of care towards each other as I do for my own child.

You could substitute any parents in there btw, I just used myself as an example. You’ll be able to set an example for your own children too if you decide to have children at some point in the future. I do get where you’re coming from and how you would choose to raise your own child is your own business, but by your own standard you should also be fine with the idea that I don’t share your opinion in relation to how I or any parents would raise their children. In your opinion is fine, that’s your opinion based upon your own personal morality. I too have my own personal morality which differs from yours.

If we were all to share identical sets of personal morality I might be inclined to agree with you that there might be something untoward afoot

Hotblack Desiato

Paul Lee wrote: »

we force all kids to get State Mandated brain washing.

So stick with the church mandated brainwashing instead?

It would be better if they found out this stuff themselves

You quite simply could not be more wrong. Even just sticking to the narrow measures of STIs and early pregnancy rates, ignorance or abstinence-only sex "education" have abysmally bad outcomes.

instead of the State actually shoving porn and sexual confusion down their throats, pardon the pun.

Citation needed. You're scaremongering, plain and simple.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Paul Lee wrote: »

Yes, you're right again. It is all brainwashing. I'm brainwashing you by typing these keys.

Then how come I'm asking questions?

What we're talking about is who gets to do the brainwashing, and how invasive it is. Personally I tell my kids that ultimately they have to think for themselves and when they're old enough, decide for themselves. However, you can't learn to think for yourself without a set of opinions to work off. I'm providing that for them, and though it's not perfect it's a million times better than the education I received.

In my vast experience of dealing (directly) with the State and reading newspapers, listening to radio, TV, internet etc for forty years, I can quite confidently say that the Government is the most incompetent, corrupt and quite often evil bunch of people you could ever care to meet. To think that they are "on our side" is naive at best, and downright stupid and evil at worst.

So, placing the most precious minds that exist in my world into their wretched hands isn't something I'm too happy about.

Then how come homeschooling is allowed?

Already my young kids know the words Communism, Feminism, Snowflake, Green is Red (Words written on a sign that they saw in town one day.)

Depending on the age of the kids, shouldn't they?

and they're aware of some of the agendas being pushed in schools. Already my daughter has highlighted some things I'm very concerned about. She's lucky that she has a parent that understands this s_h_it. Otherwise she and her brother would be very confused about their place in the world. I'd like to think there are others with the same understanding but I despair at our collective stupidity.

Thankfully my kids are happy, well adjusted and strong. That's the main thing, but they need to be protected because they're only kids.

freshpopcorn

Hello Paul Lee,
Sometimes thread can go a tad serious in After Hours and go a bit off topic but in the case I recommend that you turn to the parenting or primary and preschool for advice!
Regards,
Freshpopcorn.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=251

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//forumdisplay.php?f=1022

freshpopcorn

Mod Note Reopening this thread in Current Affairs please follow local guidelines.

Also, don't reply to Paul Lee and him in general. He has being advised to seek advice else where.

Paul Lee

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So stick with the church mandated brainwashing instead?

Nope, I didn't advocate for that. Parents are responsible for their own kids, so if a parent wants to teach their child that they have the wrong gender- It's unfortunate and it will damage the child in the long run- but they have a right to teach it to their children.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You quite simply could not be more wrong. Even just sticking to the narrow measures of STIs and early pregnancy rates, ignorance or abstinence-only sex "education" have abysmally bad outcomes.

I'm not saying that kids shouldn't be taught about STDs- That's standard at this point. I'm talking about the education being proposed by some very strange people, the kind of people who, quite frankly, shouldn't be around children at all.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Citation needed. You're scaremongering, plain and simple.

https://www.facebook.com/GriptMedia/videos/2265186810198978/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQuwz64qsBM
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/drag-story-time-event-for-children-cancelled-at-dublin-library-after-backlash-38015705.html
<snip>

Am I really?

There's plenty more where that came from. My daughter has already listened to gender "normative" information. She's not even 10 years old.

Hotblack Desiato

Paul Lee wrote: »

Nope, I didn't advocate for that.

Well you seem to be ok with a school system where a church gets to ram its warped view of sexuality and morals down the throats of kids in 90% of primary schools?

Parents are responsible for their own kids

Exactly and they have the right to withdraw their kids from anything they find objectionable - not just RSE.

so if a parent wants to teach their child that they have the wrong gender

There's nothing like engaging with a well thought out, rational argument. And that's nothing like a well thought out, rational argument.

It's unfortunate and it will damage the child in the long run- but they have a right to teach it to their children.

They do, and whatever weird and harmful religious crap they want, too - but what parents do in their own time is nothing to do with the school and irrelevant to this thread.

I'm not saying that kids shouldn't be taught about STDs- That's standard at this point. I'm talking about the education being proposed by some very strange people, the kind of people who, quite frankly, shouldn't be around children at all.

https://www.facebook.com/GriptMedia/videos/2265186810198978/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQuwz64qsBM
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/drag-story-time-event-for-children-cancelled-at-dublin-library-after-backlash-38015705.html
<snip>

OK. We got -

Some random Facebook link I won't click on. Don't do FB, people.
A TED talk from some American randomer
The story we're all familiar with where some Helen Lovejoys got a harmless story time cancelled due to death threats!
A Twitter nut job with an explicit porn GIF. Thanks I'm sure :rolleyes: Reported.

There's plenty more where that came from. My daughter has already listened to gender "normative" information. She's not even 10 years old.

You'll have to explain what EXACTLY you mean by "listened to gender normative information" and what it has to do with school RSE programmes in Ireland.