Near Misses Volume 2 (So close you can feel it)

expectationlost

so did righttobike accept the fine?

Tombo2001

hesker wrote: »

I know the road in question extremely well. It’s not particularly dangerous. It depends on the 12 year old and their level of road craft.
That particular merge point would be seen the length and breadth of the country

Very few 12 year olds have any level of road craft.

A major part of the issue here is that many of them have parents who dont cycle.

The default for most parents, including those who cycle, is that its safer for kids to cycle on the footpath
(which to be fair, is accurate. Car collisions are the number one cause of death for kids).

As such, many 12 year olds have only ever cycled on the footpath.

At some point, when they are old enough to venture off with their pals, they will go out on the road.

With little or no experience of cycling in traffic.

Tombo2001

07Lapierre wrote: »

Of course i can jump to conclusions...this is the internet !

Look you make good points. he's free to record what he wants, confront who he wants and use whatever roads he wants.

I may not be able to jump to conclusions, but i can express an opinion. In my Opinion he certainly likes confronting motorists who do wrong. I feel he should record the incidents and report them to the Gardai. Its my opinion that confronting drivers at the next set of lights only reaffirms the negative image most motorists wrongly have of most cyclists.

Is that not the lesser point, though.

He has reported 40 incidents, of which 20 have led to prosecution.

Its like saying, I dont care if Paul Kimmage is right about Lance, he's still an asshole and I dont like him.

CramCycle

expectationlost wrote: »

so did righttobike accept the fine?

As far as I know he is not accepting it. Personally I think he should appeal it if he doesn't agree but I get the impression he is letting it run to court based on his tweets. Having looked at the video several times, and knowing how gopro can distort distance to someone not used to using them, I would be happy to merge as he did comfortably but a viewer without knowledge of go pros might say its a flip of a coin on whether he had enough time or space. It's a fine line and I accept that many people might not think it was appropriate. If I was fined over it, provided the van got hammered with fines and points as well, I'd accept the fine.

AndrewJRenko

07Lapierre wrote: »

Of course i can jump to conclusions...this is the internet !

Look you make good points. he's free to record what he wants, confront who he wants and use whatever roads he wants.

I may not be able to jump to conclusions, but i can express an opinion. In my Opinion he certainly likes confronting motorists who do wrong. I feel he should record the incidents and report them to the Gardai. Its my opinion that confronting drivers at the next set of lights only reaffirms the negative image most motorists wrongly have of most cyclists.

I'm not sure why we'd be too worried about negative images. Do householders worry about negative images of burglars when confronting or reporting burglars to Gardai?

CramCycle

hesker wrote: »

I’m done arguing. The Gardai found fault with both road users. It’s easy to spin the argument that the cyclist is being victimised but the video won’t support his appeal in my opinion in this instance. But you never know how these things will play out

It will play out in one of two ways. 1. the Garda will show up and the judge will uphold the fine (or add more to it), or 2. the Garda won't show up and throw it out.
Or a variation of this, none of which will make him right on paper, and the Garda, if petty will be delighted either way as he will have wasted a day dealing with it, which has to be worth more than the fine based on the minimum wage.

Legally, its a flip of a coin how it goes in court and depending on how much you cycle, how much you are used to gopros and how you take that info in and what was said to you before you watch it, you will either agree or disagree with him, I can see why you would take either side but hands up, right or wrong, I think based on the space and speed given, I would have made that merge without concern, and maybe I am wrong. Either way, it's much of a muchness the garda fining him is a win either way for the Garda if it was petty and if it wasn't then he was either right or wrong.

Morally, it doesn't matter if he was right or wrong. We are not vigilantes and the van should have not put him in that danger, even if it was unintentional (which I think upon review it possibly was unintentional, just poor driving and spatial awareness).

expectationlost

if the judge looks at the satellite view the cyclist should win

CramCycle

expectationlost wrote: »

if the judge looks at the satellite view the cyclist should win

I should have caveated, as someone whose local judges judgements would have been classed as satire anywhere else in the modern world, I could be completely wrong. My favourite is the poster who put a video up on here where the driver who hit a cyclist blamed the sun in her eyes. The video of the incident, the time of day, the location, all showed the sun was behind her at the time but such things are never taken into consideration.

I wouldn't trust a judge in Ireland to look past much past the end of their nose but I would love to be proven wrong.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

That's your choice. For me, it is absolutely cathartic to engage, even more so to make Garda reports with video evidence.

I'm curious, does this crusader cathartism hold when you are behind the wheel of a car, involving day to day road rage, or do you leave your cape behind you when you dismount the saddle?

AndrewJRenko

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm curious, does this crusader cathartism hold when you are behind the wheel of a car, involving day to day road rage, or do you leave your cape behind you when you dismount the saddle?

Dunno where you got "road rage" from?


I don't have a dash cam, so I'd rarely have video evidence when behind the wheel. I did get the kids to record an adjacent driver using his phone on the M50 and reported it once.

Wait, do you NOT report dangerous drivers?

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Dunno where you got "road rage" from?


I don't have a dash cam, so I'd rarely have video evidence when behind the wheel. I did get the kids to record an adjacent driver using his phone on the M50 and reported it once.

Wait, do you NOT report dangerous drivers?

Unlike you I have no cathartic desire for confrontation on our roads. I just get along safe as I can, I don't think road confrontation is productive to anyone. I rarely even blow the horn anymore. A lot of idiots out there, also a lot of unintentionally clueless people, I'm not perfect either.

Fighting Tao

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Unlike you I have no cathartic desire for confrontation on our roads. I just get along safe as I can, I don't think road confrontation is productive to anyone. I rarely even blow the horn anymore. A lot of idiots out there, also a lot of unintentionally clueless people, I'm not perfect either.

Part of the problem with most people going along minding your own business and not reporting is that some day that may not be enough to keep you safe from another driver who isn’t attentive or driving to the co dictions. They would probably be serial offenders but no one has reported them. It may be too late for you and your family.

07Lapierre

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Part of the problem with most people going along minding your own business and not reporting is that some day that may not be enough to keep you safe from another driver who isn’t attentive or driving to the co dictions. They would probably be serial offenders but no one has reported them. It may be too late for you and your family.

You remind me of the NRA in the USA. Everyone should have a gun "to protect our family".

I know i could be killed if i'm involved in a RTA while cycling. But the benefits of cycling far outweigh any such risk. Our roads are not that dangerous that we need to record every minute of our journeys.

Kander

07Lapierre wrote: »

You remind me of the NRA in the USA. Everyone should have a gun "to protect our family".

I know i could be killed if i'm involved in a RTA while cycling. But the benefits of cycling far outweigh any such risk. Our roads are not that dangerous that we need to record every minute of our journeys.

Not sure I would agree with this from my experience. What changed my mind and made me get a camera was after getting hit by three cars in the space of a month. All of them where the drivers fault and a complete case of sorry I didn't see you there.

Deleted User wrote: »

Unlike you I have no cathartic desire for confrontation on our roads. I just get along safe as I can, I don't think road confrontation is productive to anyone. I rarely even blow the horn anymore. A lot of idiots out there, also a lot of unintentionally clueless people, I'm not perfect either.

We need to point out that these people have the capability to kill others. If someone is stupidly wielding a knife and is going to hurt someone, I'll point it out. If someone is stupidly driving and is going to hurt someone, I'll point it out.

Wildly Boaring

Kander wrote: »

Not sure I would agree with this from my experience. What changed my mind and made me get a camera was after getting hit by three cars in the space of a month. All of them where the drivers fault and a complete case of sorry I didn't see you there.

I have no camera either.
I try to stay away from tech in general when cycling / running. Just about bring phone in back pocket for emergencies and to take the odd photo.

I suppose my view is, a camera isn't going to stop them hitting me.

Is your view that at least if they do you'll have evidence to get them prosecuted?
Do you have 2, one front and back? Or just back?

Kander

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

I suppose my view is, a camera isn't going to stop them hitting me.

Is your view that at least if they do you'll have evidence to get them prosecuted?
Do you have 2, one front and back? Or just back?

Yes primarily it was for the aftermath of any issue. Though since I got the camera I did find that drivers were more attentive in general and I had less close passes & smidsy.

I put the camera on top of my helmet so it sees what I see. I look like an absolute tool but it works.

Here is a previous post and link I put up from it: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=111292229

07Lapierre

Kander wrote: »

Not sure I would agree with this from my experience. What changed my mind and made me get a camera was after getting hit by three cars in the space of a month. All of them where the drivers fault and a complete case of sorry I didn't see you there.

Did these incidents go to court?
Did you have video evidence?

CramCycle

I found the number of issues dropped when I got a camera. Now you can argue that is awareness from drivers or awareness from me, either way it works. I used to get the same years ago when I had a light on my helmet, people often mistook it for a camera. Now regrettably for some its a red rag but that is a tiny percentage. Overall, cycling is not dangerous, and hasn't been for many years. Could it be safer, yes, but is it dangerous, nope.

Kander

07Lapierre wrote: »

Did these incidents go to court?
Did you have video evidence?

Nope no camera at the time

I went to the Garda with the first two and was told there wasn't anything they could do without footage or witnesses. No injury to me to report on. It was 1. side swiped from a car filtering on to a roundabout I was already on and 2. car pulling out from a side road and not looking ended up half on the bonnet & half on the bike.

Gave up on reporting the third as it would have been the same as the previous two

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

Unlike you I have no cathartic desire for confrontation on our roads. I just get along safe as I can, I don't think road confrontation is productive to anyone. I rarely even blow the horn anymore. A lot of idiots out there, also a lot of unintentionally clueless people, I'm not perfect either.

07Lapierre wrote: »

You remind me of the NRA in the USA. Everyone should have a gun "to protect our family".

I know i could be killed if i'm involved in a RTA while cycling. But the benefits of cycling far outweigh any such risk. Our roads are not that dangerous that we need to record every minute of our journeys.

I don't think anyone suggested that everyone HAS to record every minute of their journeys. But likewise, it might be wise for those who choose not to record their journeys to not take swipes at those who do. You can be fairly certain that not taking any action against dangerous drivers is not going to do anything to improve the situation on the roads.

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

I have no camera either.
I try to stay away from tech in general when cycling / running. Just about bring phone in back pocket for emergencies and to take the odd photo.

I suppose my view is, a camera isn't going to stop them hitting me.

Is your view that at least if they do you'll have evidence to get them prosecuted?
Do you have 2, one front and back? Or just back?

My view is that you don't wait for them to hit you or anyone else to get them prosecuted. I use two, front facing on my helmet and rear facing under the saddle. I don't think most drivers notice the one on my helmet at all.

Mercian Pro

Heading home from the Park this morning via the Ashtown Gate and going to Ashtown/Rathborne, I entered the Halfway House roundabout knowing that there were a couple of cars heading in towards town on the Navan Road. Unlike umpteen other times I've done the same, one of the cars didn't stop or even slow and would certainly have hit me if I hadn't braked and swung sharply to the right. We ended up side by side and I gestured to him to pull in which he did. I got the classic SMIDSY excuse and replied with a detailed description of what would have happened had I not taken evasive action followed by questions about his eyesight, mental capacity and general fitness to drive.

I suppose if I had it on camera, I probably would have rung the Garda but I let it go in the hope that he will remember the incident and my diatribe and will be more alert in future. Afterwards, thinking about it, I should have insisted he wait until a Garda arrived as that would be a lot more memorable even if it didn't result in a prosecution.

Tombo2001

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Heading home from the Park this morning via the Ashtown Gate and going to Ashtown/Rathborne, I entered the Halfway House roundabout knowing that there were a couple of cars heading in towards town on the Navan Road. Unlike umpteen other times I've done the same, one of the cars didn't stop or even slow and would certainly have hit me if I hadn't braked and swung sharply to the right. We ended up side by side and I gestured to him to pull in which he did. I got the classic SMIDSY excuse and replied with a detailed description of what would have happened had I not taken evasive action followed by questions about his eyesight, mental capacity and general fitness to drive.

I suppose if I had it on camera, I probably would have rung the Garda but I let it go in the hope that he will remember the incident and my diatribe and will be more alert in future. Afterwards, thinking about it, I should have insisted he wait until a Garda arrived as that would be a lot more memorable even if it didn't result in a prosecution.

Well thats it really - there was a lot of talk about the chap being punished by the guards, that he was a header bringing 40 or 50 cases to them.

But the reality is most of us could do the same if we had cameras. I was in the park yesterday and a woman overtook me into a blind bend, I could see the oncoming traffic but she couldnt until she was half way past. Dangerous driving, if recorded.

On a seperate note, its an awful pity that the Phoenix Park and the Canal Cycleway are so close to one another - but that with small children there is no safe way to get from one to another. Particularly the route you describe is a no-go with kids.

Mercian Pro

Tombo2001 wrote: »

On a seperate note, its an awful pity that the Phoenix Park and the Canal Cycleway are so close to one another - but that with small children there is no safe way to get from one to another. Particularly the route you describe is a no-go with kids.

Not only the Royal Canal Greenway but also the excellent Tolka Valley Park where I was heading. The good news is that Phase 4 of the Greenway is to include a cycling route linking the Tolka to the Canal to the Park. The Dart West project shows an underpass of the railway and the canal at Ashtown but I have seen no proposals for getting over or under the Navan Road. Even as a pedestrian it's a nightmare trying to cross anywhere near the roundabout.

VonLuck

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Not only the Royal Canal Greenway but also the excellent Tolka Valley Park where I was heading. The good news is that Phase 4 of the Greenway is to include a cycling route linking the Tolka to the Canal to the Park. The Dart West project shows an underpass of the railway and the canal at Ashtown but I have seen no proposals for getting over or under the Navan Road. Even as a pedestrian it's a nightmare trying to cross anywhere near the roundabout.

The BusConnects route along the Navan Road is going to upgrade the Ashtown roundabout. Not sure what to make of it. Doesn't look like there's any signalised crossings. And I don't know what they're doing with the lower right of the roundabout. Looks like they've swapped over the position of the cycle lane for no logical reason.

Mercian Pro

VonLuck wrote: »

The BusConnects route along the Navan Road is going to upgrade the Ashtown roundabout. Not sure what to make of it. Doesn't look like there's any signalised crossings. And I don't know what they're doing with the lower right of the roundabout. Looks like they've swapped over the position of the cycle lane for no logical reason.

Had a look at that and it's hard to know how it will work. The text says "It is proposed to modify the Navan Road roundabout at Ashtown Road to a signal controlled roundabout – keeping the existing trees on the central island. At this junction, it is proposed to terminate the two-way cycle way (west of the junction) and to transition to a segregated cycle track on each side of the carriageway (east of the junction)."
Looks like it totally ignores any requirement to provide for cycle lanes on the roads to the Park or Ashtown. Hopefully the NTA and DCC will have pointed that out to them at some stage.

Hurrache

Mercian Pro wrote: »

the excellent Tolka Valley Park where I was heading.

What is it like, and where can it take you from? I'm always wary of it due to its location and the anti social ****s who have a tendency to ruin things for everyone. I've ran through it's most westerly location at Mulhuddart and along as much as I could to the M50, but never the other side of it.

Mercian Pro

I'd forgotten that there is another section out near Mulhuddart. Hopefully they will link up at some stage. The section I and a number of other Boardsies use runs from the Ashtown/River Road junction, across or under the Rathoath Road to the Finglas Road at Tolka Bridge. There can be a bit of broken glass about on Monday mornings but it's usually cleaned up fairly quickly. The main problem is pedestrians and dog-walkers using the clearly marked bike lanes to stay distant from other pedestrians. There is a further section on the opposite (east) side of Finglas Road called Violet Hill Park that eventually finishes at Addison Hall apartments and the Old Finglas Road near the Holy Faith school.

VonLuck

Hurrache wrote: »

What is it like, and where can it take you from? I'm always wary of it due to its location and the anti social ****s who have a tendency to ruin things for everyone. I've ran through it's most westerly location at Mulhuddart and along as much as I could to the M50, but never the other side of it.

It's not as bad as people think. It's nice along the river and tends to have a good volume of people on fair weather days. I'd avoid the higher section along Tolka Valley Road though, mostly because there's not much to look at!

I will admit the park does have a few problems. Litter and vandalism being the main ones, particularly the throwing of life buoys into the river. Haven't encountered much anti-social behaviour personally beyond encountering kids riding a mini-scrambler on the footpath.

Tombo2001

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Not only the Royal Canal Greenway but also the excellent Tolka Valley Park where I was heading. The good news is that Phase 4 of the Greenway is to include a cycling route linking the Tolka to the Canal to the Park. The Dart West project shows an underpass of the railway and the canal at Ashtown but I have seen no proposals for getting over or under the Navan Road. Even as a pedestrian it's a nightmare trying to cross anywhere near the roundabout.

Funny enough, I just said the other day to a Local Councillor that they should do more to publicise family friendly cycle paths.

I live 2k from Tolka Valley park - I've been cycling pretty much every day for the past decade or more - and yet only discovered this cycle route by accident earlier this week, when I decided to have a gander around Ashtown instead of the normal route to the 12th lock. Delighted to find it, but fuming that I'd never known about it before.

Not to be too controversial about it, but if this cycle path was in Dun Laoghaire, it would be very well known.

On a related point - for any locals - given that the cycling advocacy groups are so heavily southside oriented, maybe its time for a seperate group just for northside.

Mercian Pro

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Funny enough, I just said the other day to a Local Councillor that they should do more to publicise family friendly cycle paths.

I live 2k from Tolka Valley park - I've been cycling pretty much every day for the past decade or more - and yet only discovered this cycle route by accident earlier this week, when I decided to have a gander around Ashtown instead of the normal route to the 12th lock. Delighted to find it, but fuming that I'd never known about it before.

Not to be too controversial about it, but if this cycle path was in Dun Laoghaire, it would be very well known.

On a related point - for any locals - given that the cycling advocacy groups are so heavily southside oriented, maybe its time for a seperate group just for northside.

The lack of signage and publicity is bizarre. I have raised it and the use of kissing gates with DCC but never got a satisfactory reply. The Finglas Road entrance is particularly obscure and people often go into the more obvious small park on the south bank of the river when looking for the TVP. Even Google Maps doesn't show the section west of the Rathoath Road as a park!


I think if more northsiders got actively involved in the Dublin Cycling Campaign, there might be more focus on northside issues. There is a Fingal Cycling Campaign group that is affiliated to the Dublin group but I don't think a split is the way to go.

Weepsie

VonLuck wrote: »

It's not as bad as people think. It's nice along the river and tends to have a good volume of people on fair weather days. I'd avoid the higher section along Tolka Valley Road though, mostly because there's not much to look at!

.

Up there it is a bit miserable, but look towards wicklow on a nice day and you get a decent view.

Gas seeing a lot of grown men climbing over the fences to play pitch and putt lately.


I started using it as an alternative to the river road, which I would love but for the impatient drivers. I lived in Ashington and it would get me to Glasnevin in 15 mins instead of going via Cabra or Phibsboro

Tombo2001

Thats funny, I was doubting myself cycling past it wondering if the golf courses had opened up again. Counted 14 people on the pitch and putt. (Lovely evening for it!!).


One very awkward part is getting across the dual carriageway to the little green stretch thats at the back of violet hill - I wonder if they put a path under the bridge would people use it.

Another thing they could do if it didnt cause too much scandal is bring a cycle path along the side of Glasnevin Cemetery coming out at the diggers.....

Tombo2001

buffalo wrote: »

Yeah, but if it was in Sandymount it'd be the subject of a court order! :pac:

No Irish Times directors living in Finglas afaik......hence the absence from the letters page.

VonLuck

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Coincidentally, Dunsink Observatory tweeted this earlier...

https://twitter.com/RaesideRose/status/1367478016889266178

Not to be flippant, but that woman who replied has pretty much doxed herself. There might be 2 or 3 houses within 700m of the observatory!

Tombo2001

VonLuck wrote: »

Not to be flippant, but that woman who replied has pretty much doxed herself. There might be 2 or 3 houses within 700m of the observatory!

Would have assumed she lived in Ashtown from what she said.

Hurrache

Anyone ever use Dunsink Lane before it was closed a a through road? That was always an experience, and the blatant fly tipping was outrageous, you'd probably more often than not come across people just emptying stuff from their cars and vans.

micar

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Coincidentally, Dunsink Observatory tweeted this earlier...

https://twitter.com/RaesideRose/status/1367478016889266178

And name after the famous Irish mathematician, William Rowan Hamilton, inventor of quaternions

CramCycle

5uspect wrote: »

Was great to see so many cyclists out today, almost outnumbering motorists.

Noticed the last week, while the numbers of cars on the road have ramped up, the number of cyclists are equally jumping in number on the road.

work

CramCycle wrote: »

Noticed the last week, while the numbers of cars on the road have ramped up, the number of cyclists are equally jumping in number on the road.

I hope this happens as its the biggest sell to planners to keep lanes recently put up and to expand.

stoneill

This is a near miss the other way, I don't have video but there was a cyclist on the M4, on the actual motorway this morning who nearly got creamed about 4 times coming up to junction 6. What short-cut could possibly be worth putting your life at risk?

07Lapierre

buffalo wrote: »

Well it's very hard to answer that without knowing which direction he was coming from.

?? A cyclist on a motorway? Not good in any direction no?

CapnHex

stoneill wrote: »

This is a near miss the other way, I don't have video but there was a cyclist on the M4, on the actual motorway this morning who nearly got creamed about 4 times coming up to junction 6. What short-cut could possibly be worth putting your life at risk?

Without asking the person on the bike, I suspect a misuse of Google directions, with specifying cycling option. Or a regular motorist taking to 2 wheels for the first time.

Hurrache

CapnHex wrote: »

Without asking the person on the bike, I suspect a misuse of Google directions, with specifying cycling option.

Most people should recognise they're on a motorway though, particularly because of the blue signs as you enter it.
I used to see people on the bridge over the Liffey on the M50 regularly enough and suspected they knew what they were doing and using it as a shortcut. The furthest from an entrance/exit I've seen on was around Parkwest on the M50 southbound, so he either joined at the N4 and cycled a fair oul distance, or jumped a fence at some point to join.

Eamonnator

^^^^^
English subtitles would be handy.

fat bloke

That's an over reaction from the cyclist imo

Edit, whoops! By which I mean the man on the bicycle!

I did catch the driver mention "every day" so likely pissed at him skipping the queue or some nonsense.

I wouldn't be quick tempered at all but some one got out of a car and put their hands on be like that I'd likely be getting a lift from the Gardaí.

CramCycle

While the driver was completely in the wrong for the assault and for driving to the rear of the car in front, he didn't drive at the guy on the bike, he possibly (stupidly) thought the space the bike used was enough and then the cyclist started drifting out. The car is 100% in the wrong but maybe I am numb to poor driving I don't think it was intentional. From the car drivers perspective the bike drifts out before he has fully filtered and then belts his car. Not that the cyclist had too as its in the same lane but I would have indicated to show I plan to go around the turning car.

Weepsie

I wouldn't class that as overtaking on the left as much as I would salmoning as it's far more like that. There's what only a car length there maybe? Driver giving a bit more to the car in front due to conditions.

Driver is a complete nut case, but I don't think the cyclist is reading the road particularly well given the conditions.

CramCycle

buffalo wrote: »

I wouldn't say he's drifted out, I'd say he's completed an overtake (on the left) and is taking the lane again. The driver is clearly either aggressive or not paying the slightest bit of attention, hard to tell from outside. The 'every day' comment makes me think it was the former.

He had barely completed it though, now the fault is 100% with the motorist for being a bit of column A (driving up the arse of the other car) and column B (didn't realise what was actually happening). Don't get me wrong, the driver is a pr1ck and deserves to be locked up but just as a side note, I don't think he intentionally drove at him, at best he intentionally cut him off for no real reason. Like I said, I see worse every day so it kind of blows over me. I wouldn't have pulled out until the driver had acknowledged I was coming out or I was fully ahead.

CramCycle

Enduro wrote: »

It looks to me like it was intentional. Before the filtering you can see that the car is so far right that he has crossed over the center line marking of the road. Given the subsequent interaction I would guess he was deliberatly trying to prevent the ccyclist from getting in front (like he does "every day"), and got angry because the cyclist filtered left, throwing his blocking master plan into disarray. He was very quick out of the car.

Yep, he is certainly trying to block the guy in, which is all manner of ****ish behaviour and unnecessary. I still wouldn't have started taking the lane till I was clear and got some sort of acknowledgement. Everyone is different though, I would have got blocked and then asked the driver what the f*cking point was, probably leading to the same conclusion.