Near Misses Volume 2 (So close you can feel it)

McGrath5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787872#Comment_118787872

Like you I would have followed up with the driver, though I find once they are in their metal box they think they can do no wrong and hence no reasoning with them. How is your foot btw?

km991148

I hate to say it - but everything after 18 seconds just didn't need to happen.

You aren't going to convince an ignorant gobshite that they are an ignorant gobshite.

.....

(however - there are times I would have absolutely followed them and I wouldn't have been as polite about it either.. - but doesn't mean it's a good idea..)

BoardsMember

I would also be inclined to follow the driver and have it out with them, particularly in the heat of the moment and if they had scared the bejaysus out of me. I'm not sure what it achieves, maybe just feel like a walkover if ignored when someone does something that threatens your safety, very little to be achieved unless the driver is apologetic.

In a parallel universe I would love to take out some retribtion where the perpetrator is a d1ck, and go gangbusters on their car or something - maybe spray it with paint, or smash off a mirror, or break a few windows. But obviously not in reality. Because that would be bad.

CramCycle

Officially, just report it, but since you followed him, it will be a case of him arguing you intimidated/threatened him. Unofficially, if he acted like that to many people, I imagine the Gardai would quite rightly be investigating a more serious crime of criminal damage and aggravated assault. You were more restrained than most I imagine. One of these days he will find someone less restrained.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787872#Comment_118787872

most

km991148

Thing is: right after someone has been caught doing something stupid (mistake or deliberately) is the absolute worst time to teach them a lesson.

It's only ever likely to escalate.

Sometimes I've had luck (calmly) pointing stuff out after, but it's rare.

Better just to be the better road user. Anticipate more, allow for others. The attitude of feeling like "a walkover" is not going to serve you well in the long run.

BoardsMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118788484#Comment_118788484

100% agree with that. And as I have got older I have definitely seen growth in this direction from myself, but still very much a work in progress. It's sometimes very much a "fight" reaction having been threatened, so there can be a fair bit of instinct to battle agains.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118788703#Comment_118788703

"Following someone to where they were parking would fall into that category for me, because if I was followed by someone I didn't know, I'd be preparing myself for it to become physical."

This all day every day.

What he did was careless and ignorant; you'll be a busy road user if you spend your time trying to correct all of those that you will encounter.

Before you follow anyone in again it might be worth keeping in mind that there is a very small percentage of people who would have reacted very badly to you approaching them twice, shouting at them with a flashing light near eye height.

Swearing, shouting and following someone into a car park would be behaviours I'd avoid unless I was looking for an escalation; you never know who that other person is or what they are capable of.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118788484#Comment_118788484

The immediate response is the absolute BEST time to teach them a lesson. it's the same with puppy training, or kid's behaviour, or an employee taking the p1ss. Call it out when you see it.

Negative reaction from a driver does not mean that you had no impact. There's a good chance they will think twice the next time, regardless of what macho BS they come out with when confronted.

I find it best to get in front of them when they are stopped or slow moving. Just cost them a minute or two, as they costed you similar. Let them see that being inconsiderate doesn't pay off.

magicbastarder

i'd be conscious that if it does get physical, wearing cycling shoes is not going to help you.

callaway92

Yeh it's a tough one. I'd be inclined to follow him too to complain

When he flashed his hazards was he apologising?

It's also a weird one because if it was a frail woman or someone you are physically attracted to (sounds stupid I know) would you still have confronted them in the same way?

I think the best course of action is to move on and do nothing, which is the safest. That guy ain't gonna change. However, I don't blame you.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789021#Comment_118789021

I agree with a lot of your posts AJR - but (as we have found before!) we have to agree to disagree here.. because we always fundamentally disagree on these matters.

(Although reading between the lines I probably don't train dogs the same way as you do either.. :D)

You (any of us) are not responsible for policing. Two wrongs don't make a right. Arguing with people achieves little (often just makes things worse by enforcing us vs them stereotypes).

I mean - look at Seths example - who won there? No one. Seth got a sore foot for his troubles and the "driver" just doubled down on his attitude (and I would say very unlikely to change behaviour in a positive way. I would even assume that he will absolutely make sure to not respect the next cyclist he comes across).

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789078#Comment_118789078

I don't claim to have a monopoly of wisdom on these things. For me, it's not about 'winning' on the day. It doesn't really matter how it plays on the day.

What matters is whether he will think twice about doing it the next time.

If you do nothing, you can be certain that he's not going to think twice.

If you do something, there is some hope that he'll think twice.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789107#Comment_118789107

yeah - and thats why I say we park it there - I take your point. There is a greater than zero chance they will reflect on their behaviour. I agree with this part, but I think more likely to behave worse in the future...

It's something Id love to be able to work out how to conduct a study on tbh as the question has came up before a good few times on these forums.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789043#Comment_118789043

dunno - ever been beaten around the head with a cleat?

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789021#Comment_118789021

I'd want some studies into that before going into that thinking. In my experience, they'll mostly get more pissy and dwell on it for longer, and longer and then the next cyclist they meet is even more in danger.

There are some people who like to lecture people for the most minor of transgressions that are no more an inconvenience and not remotely dangerous, careless etc etc. People don't like to feel like they're being condescended against, and might then dwell on it and get angrier. and in future think, dickhead cyclist for everyone they see on a bike.

Often the only person who feels better for it, is the person doing the lecturing. They think they've performed an important civic duty or something, when in reality they likely have done nothing.

You only need to look at the number of drivers with repeat offences on their licences to think the that doing so will have much benefit.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789252#Comment_118789252

They're already thinking "dickhead cyclist for everyone they see on a bike" so there is little to lose.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789276#Comment_118789276

No they're not, and if that's your assumption, then you might be part of the problem too because you're approaching everything as if the whole world is to blame and you are infallible. Some of them are no doubt. But most are not.

That's my opinion anyway.

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789107#Comment_118789107

There's a lot of assumptions in that post, based on what empirical evidence I'm not sure. I just hope that I don't have any interactions with drivers who've been the recent subject of any of your lessons, because I don't fancy playing the lottery of whether they educate or simply enrage.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789286#Comment_118789286

Would you prefer to play the lottery of the quality of driving we regularly see on this thread, from drivers who presumably I haven't yet had the chance to enrage?

Are these drivers going be enraged with every other driver and every other pedestrian, given that I'm as just as likely to have words when in the car (like the taxi driver who was watching social media videos on his dash mounted phone) or when on foot (like the driver who gave me the finger this morning when I signalled that he was blocking the pedestrian crossing section of the junction, that an older lady and myself were about to use)?

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789466#Comment_118789466

100pc I would prefer people to engage less with drivers.

Edit: other than to give thanks for considerate driving etc

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789398#Comment_118789398

one of the most effective ways i've found when dealing with motorists in this context, usually more so ones who haven't already gotten their backs up, is to just say 'please don't do that again, you scared the **** out of me', or words to that effect.

you're not being aggressive by saying it, but you're making it clear where you think the fault lies without giving them an explicit statement about where they erred, so there's less to defend themselves with.

and on the occasions where they defend themselves or get annoyed, i just repeat 'please don't do that again' a couple of times and cycle off.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789608#Comment_118789608

Is it just anti-social drivers that we're supposed to ignore now?

If your neighbour lets his dog crap on your lawn every night, will you keep your head down and avoid engagement? If your other neighbour dumps his fag butts onto your grass, will you keep your head down and avoid engagement?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790321#Comment_118790321

Do you actually understand how blind spots work? It's not an excuse for not seeing someone. The driver needs to make sure there is no-one in their blind spot.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790883#Comment_118790883

It absolutely is the bad drivers that should be ignored. For multiple reasons.

Your neighbour example is irrelevant. If I had a dick head neighbour I would address the issue because it's an entirely different situation with differing social and societal expectations.

Weepsie

Also undertaking and legally overtaking in the left are different things and in fairly certain defined in law

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790321#Comment_118790321

That's a really bad take. The driver is crossing a lane so (s)he is obliged to give way to traffic already in that lane. The person on the bike is already in control of that lane and the driver has to give way to them before entering the lane. Travelling straight ahead, in a lane that is intended for straight ahead travel, while moving at a speed faster than slower moving traffic to the right, is perfectly legitimate and is not 'undertaking'. It's possible the person on the bike passed through the driver's blind spot but they can't have been in their blind spot for the entirety of their approach from behind the second car. Either way, it is still the driver's responsibility to make sure the lane is clear before entering it.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791000#Comment_118791000

Dangerous drivers expect to get away with dangerous driving, so we should let them at it?

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791512#Comment_118791512

Let those responsible for policing police...

I've already said that I disagree with your assertion that having a word helps.

I think it's likely to escalate a situation or leave the overall situation worse.

Therefore your assertion that we "should let them at it" doesn't really stand up on its own in that context.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791117#Comment_118791117

Undertaking just isn't a thing in road legislation, there are of course laws around when you can and cannot overtake on the left.

magicbastarder

'undertaking' is clearly just common parlance for 'overtaking on the left' though?

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791591#Comment_118791591

That is a real cop out attitude.

It just means ordinary citizens so nothing and let the antisocial element run riot. If I see someone littering or not cleaning up dog poo I absolutely will say something. Equally then other day when I saw a guy reversing through a pedestrian light with kids crossing I absolutely said something. Your attitude is head down and walk on where you might call the Gardai when you are out of sight. That is a complete abdication of your responsibility as a good citizen.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791914#Comment_118791914

Yeah just sometimes people use it to mean any overtake on the left or just illegal ones which can be confusing.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791945#Comment_118791945

embarrassment is a powerful weapon too. you're much more likely to get traction if there's someone else within earshot to hear the exchange.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791945#Comment_118791945

Bullshit. It's not your job to go chasing after people who do stupid things in order to teach them a lesson.

It's how most road toad incidents escalate.

Dog crap, littering and a guy reversing towards you are entirely different and are not fit for comparison.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792141#Comment_118792141

Hmm.. worked out for Seth didn't it? Guy was clearly embarrassed and as a result drove at him.

Leave the superhero vigilante stuff out and just concentrate on being the best you can be on the road.

Good drivers and cyclists account for **** behaviour.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792173#Comment_118792173

So just let them off to kill the next guy?

Read this thread. The Gardai are going to do FA in most situations.

If you can make someone think twice the next time they do something dangerous then that has achieved something.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792210#Comment_118792210

Lol it's fine. You carry on chasing people into dark alleyways and car parks for every little infraction.

I can no more stop you from doing that than I can teach arseholes how to drive it cycle better.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792210#Comment_118792210

Incidentally I don't agree that your powers of persuasion or roadside teaching are as good or as effective as you claim them to be and all you are really doing is making stupid people act more aggressively towards cyclists in future scenarios.

weisses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784664#Comment_118784664

Is it prohibited for a cyclist to use the main road (100km speed limit) when there is a cycle lane available .?

weisses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792278#Comment_118792278

So what does the point below mean exactly then ?

"(3) All pedal cycles must be driven on a cycle track where one is provided"

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print#article14

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792226#Comment_118792226

I never said I did that

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792229#Comment_118792229

Nor did I claim this

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792301#Comment_118792301

that was superseded by the 2009 amendment.

road traffic law in ireland is like geology, there are layers on top of layers. it was on the agenda to replace the lot with a single act, AFAIK, i'm not sure when that is going to complete.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792365#Comment_118792365

Maybe its better to state your opinion than letting people guess? The implication was certainly there ("let them off" etc) considering the conversation you are replying to.

Mine is clear - I do not agree that it is worth chasing down drivers who do something stupid (either by mistake or deliberately). I think it rarely helps and is more likely to escalate a situation.

Off of the back of that there have been contorted examples of dog crap from a neighbour, someone reversing at pedestrians, litter picking and all sorts of other irrelevant examples to the example given (chasing someone down to a car park to give out to them).

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792141#Comment_118792141

That's why I think an overtly sarcastic gesture is genuinely boften better than trying to have a word with them.

A slow clap or a thumbs up has been effective for me in the past.

Effects

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789465#Comment_118789465

I've see altercations with people in cycling shoes barely able to get a footing on the ground while being assaulted.

Hurrache

You see it enough times on Eurosport.

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787872#Comment_118787872

Following him like that was going too far IMO. It was fine remonstrating with him when ye stopped at the lights to make your point but I think you should have left it there.

If you consider the same situation and you're both driving; you might wind down the window if you're beside him at lights to remonstrate but would you follow him into the carpark, block his car with yours and demand that he listen to you?

Or if you're both cycling and an incident happens, again it's okay to remonstrate with the other cyclist at the lights but would you chase after him and pull your bike over in front of his to block him and continue with it?

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792210#Comment_118792210

Again, lots of assumptions here aimed at justifying confrontation. How do you, or Andrew, know what effect your aggressive approaches are going to have? Reasonable communication is one thing, which is obviously perfectly acceptable, but what's being talked about here is not that.

The amount of shocking cycling and driving etiquette I see every day on my commute is crazy, from both sets of road users. Yet, the majority of drivers and cyclists are great. I prefer to acknowledge that.

I've no more evidence than you/ Andrew, but I'm of the view that a driver who has displayed disregard for other road users and is then wound up by one of those road users who he/ she has little regard for, is only going to be more of a menace on the road until he/ she has calmed down.

I'm not looking to tell anyone how they should react in situations like Seth's - if confronting the driver is what someone feels is the right thing to do in the circumstance, so be it. But I'm wary of encouraging this as being the approach that everyone should take.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789733#Comment_118789733

Not sure about that. Most recent interaction I witnessed as a driver reversing and threatening to get out to someone saying "you were a bit close back there" when the group met them at the next lights.

@Seth Brundle Probably wasn't the right course of action, but 100% I have had the red mist and done exactly the same thing. It was actually one of the reasons I justified a camera*, to try and stop me reacting and get my revenge served cold.

*my original fly 12 has packed up - is cycliq still the best option for something that'll last for a club spin? I don't really need the light so open to camera only options that'll last 4-5 hours.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790321#Comment_118790321

Wasn't in a blind spot unless mirrors are not set up correctly. He indicates while the overtake is in progress IMO and basically driving without due care and attention are some but not all of what he done wrong. As likely skipping traffic as turning left. I would have shouted and once stopped, went around them making hugely sarcastic gestures myself. I wouldn't have bothered trying to pinch in front, if I couldn't stop I would have just took the turn and gave him the finger.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790350#Comment_118790350

Did he apologise? I thought he said that was your fault, not an apology. If I had any faith in the Gardai I wouldn't have followed him and just sent in the footage. Seen a UCD student letting down tyres in the set down area outside UCD gym for people who had obviously just parked up. This is my type of passive aggression. I am not a fighter despite my size and tone of voice and accept that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792085#Comment_118792085

There was no reasonable expectation that he would complete it after he started indicating. The indicator came on while the overtake had begun.