Near Misses Volume 2 (So close you can feel it)

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119618599#Comment_119618599

There is a shared blame / responsibility here though - see below for the relevant SI (whether you consider "reasonable expectation" to be nonsense or not, it remains the law)

S.I. No. 332/2012 - Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2012.

(b) A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken—

(i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,

There's an onus on the driver to check before turning and an equal onus on the cyclist to not overtake on the left in the situation outlined above. Both were at fault here and both should have been more aware of their surroundings

Kaisr Sose

Absolutely correct. The blind spot exists only to those blind to the danger of manoeuvring their vehicle blindly.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621604#Comment_119621604

The movement to the left is not the turn, it is moving closer to the kerb in advance of it. Therefore it is completely irrelevant in this case, as there was a cycle lane.

The 'reasonable expectation' was changed from 'will' at some stage, but it doesn't specify who is actually supposed to have it? At the end of the day the only person who can have a reasonable expectation of what a car is going to do is the person driving it.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623255#Comment_119623255

The indicating well before the turn is the the signal.

Anyone half way observant would know to adjust their own speed rather than plough on through the turn.

It's definitely a case of 6 of one. It's poor driving but it's equally crap cycling

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623578#Comment_119623578

No, what's crap is the fact that most of us cyclists have developed the rational expectation that we're probably going to be left-hooked so we hang back, and identify someone who instead chooses to assert their right of way on a cycle lane as being a crap cyclist.

Pretty sad imo

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623255#Comment_119623255

The movement to the left is not the turn, it is moving closer to the kerb in advance of it

Oh right. Any sort of link to where this approach to turning is detailed?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623762#Comment_119623762

No probs.

Turning Left

Check for following traffic well in advance. Give a left turn signal and slow down. Watch particularly for cyclists or motorcyclists coming up on your left. Keep as close as possible to the left edge of the roadway. Make the turn, again keeping close to the left hand edge. If at a T-Junction, it is important to give way to both sides of traffic.

DO NOT SWING WIDE WHEN MAKING THE TURN AND ALWAYS GIVE WAY TO PEDESTRIANS CROSSING.

http://cavanschoolofmotoring.ie/rulesoftheroad.php#:~:text=Turning%20Left&text=Give%20a%20left%20turn%20signal,to%20the%20left%20hand%20edge.

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623578#Comment_119623578

Correct on the signal... But it is mirror, signal. Mirror for a reason..

It is as you say crap x 2, but crap cycling is unlikely to kill or seriously injure other people wheras a motorist can.

The UK have it right by establishing a hierarchy of road user and responsibility. I am quite tired of no indication before left or right turn, and increasing prevalence of left hook or attempted left hooks.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623798#Comment_119623798

It's an indication to other road users as to what your intention is.

What it isn't is an abdication of having to know where said road users are.

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623793#Comment_119623793

Fair enough although I'd say you'd want something more official if you were attempting to argue that the SI doesn't apply to the situation in the OP because there was no "movement to the left" before the turn. Good luck with it

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623880#Comment_119623880

Agreed. For some, the practice seems to be a signal gives right to change direction with responsibility.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623793#Comment_119623793

Stop quoting the rules of the road. They are not statute

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623948#Comment_119623948

The SI is impossible to prove in any case, which is why i think it's nonsense.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119624036#Comment_119624036

Stop telling me what to do, they are rules, not guidelines open to interpretation.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119624125#Comment_119624125

They have no legal standing. They are guidelines and no more. You are quoting them as if they are the law. They are not.

A judge will defer to the road traffic act, not the Rotr. A Garda too. They'd tell both of the driver and cyclist to cop on and be more aware as that incident was the making of both

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119624170#Comment_119624170

Really? Do you think that argument would work in the event of a failed driving test?

No they wouldn't, if they were applying the law correctly (which in fairness is a law unto itself here), they would prosecute the driver for not driving with due care and attention

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119624170#Comment_119624170

Rules of the Road are regularly referred to in civil cases arising from road collisions.

This thread is not a criminal case so no idea why you are waffling on about statutes

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621624#Comment_119621624

In my original post I said no excuse for not checking blind spots, but actively sitting in one is going to increase your chances of collision. Find that annoying if you like but the sense of entitlement is ironic really when you think about it.

But of course why look at that when drivers bad etc..

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623693#Comment_119623693

You share the road. Good technique involves negotiation. Getting all pissy at every example of bad road use seems pretty sad (and very much fruitless). Not taking responsibility or looking at situations to see what you could have done better.. even sadder imo 🤷🏻‍♀️

But each to their own. I only comment on these things as I treat these examples as communal learning opportunities. Not everyone sees it that way I guess..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119624345#Comment_119624345

It's a good attitude to have. Keeping a cool head and not driving/cycling into a situation you see happening in front of you and making it worse is another I try to have.

CramCycle

First thing my father taught me was moving forward and backwards to account for blindspots. It is a minimum skill for driving. Does that mean I am going to trust others to do it, of course not. I'd most likely let a roar or slow to either alert the driver or avoid them. Then adapt based on what they do next. As for the video, the cyclist slowed enough that they could stop if necessary. Is anyone in the right or wrong. The driver is certainly in the wrong for poor observation, and therefore not driving without due care and attention. The cyclist you could argue one way or the other but I don't feel that they were in any real danger because they were ready for it. If they hadn't being paying attention then I'd have a different opinion.

CramCycle

A neighbour skimmed me on his motorbike this morning. I let a roar and he seemed genuoinely surprised at the shout. It was 7am and no traffic around. I have strong feelings towards heading upto his house this evening and explaing that his overpowered hairdryer still needs to be driven with due consideration.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119624962#Comment_119624962

Absolutely missing the point completely.

Try not to think about blame. Actually, try not to even go down the rabbit hole of what should happen and what the rules of the road are etc and try and look at what is likely to happen. Or more importantly, try and read a situation and look at what you can do for your own safety.

I don't cycle or drive in blind spots because I'm worried about the blame game, I don't do it because people are morons and fu*k up all the time.

I especially try not to double down on that stupidity by then riding or driving into situations that are going to further endanger me. That really is nonsensical to me. Honestly, why would you do that??

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625012#Comment_119625012

Yeah I agree actually due to the speed it turned out safe enough. My blind spot argument is more a generalisation and calling it out for awareness/safety angle. I'm surprised at the amount of people that don't think that way tho.. i.e. observation is the sole responsibility of the driver (who of course could do better here).

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625048#Comment_119625048

Yeah and I'd do the same. But so many people just give a side glance (if you are lucky!) In the mirror. The blind spot being the hidden spot between rear view and wing mirrors. I still wouldn't ride in it (or drive in it is a multi leave road) as you just can't trust people.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625068#Comment_119625068

Aye, I was sleeping lol just like the cyclist and the driver.. Yeah, unfortunately, the conversation is about blame, I'm choosing not to go down that road and focus on what can be done better in these situations - but if you want to keep it that simple and play the (pointless) blame game.. both f'd up in that clip and probably more so the cyclist *because* they seen it all play out and could have avoided it completely by better reading the road ahead (junctions ahead, 7 seconds of indicators) and generally adopting a better position on the road (avoiding blindspots, for example).

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625359#Comment_119625359

I generally try not to get into the blame game.. but since you (and others) insist upon it, I obliged and gave my reasons. It's not the gotcha you think it is?

I find the analysis interesting as this is how people learn (I mean myself here). If you think the only person in that clip that could have done better was the driver, fair enough and then of course we disagree. I (albeit with the hindsight of a video and the comfort of home) seen multiple clues in the lead up to the incident and think I would have handled it differently (L plates, indicators on for relatively decent time, junction ahead) and really don't think I would have been so close to the car, nor would I then cycle into an entirely avoidable event (and yes, the driver had the first opportunity to avoid the event and failed. The cyclist had another chance and also failed).

Smileys, quotes and digs aside, that's just how I see it.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625615#Comment_119625615

Fair enough, but really what can you do? Honest question. What behaviour can you actually change (and probably getting off topic)?

The only behaviour I know for sure I can influence is my own. That's often seen as a weakness (words like "acceptance" are a clue to this, sorry if that's not what you meant- or worse have been thrown about when such topics are discussed..) but tbh it's a strength.

My cycling and driving have improved and stress free rides in most traffic by just focusing on myself and accept that most people are really **** at driving or cycling in traffic and cycling/driving to compensate for that.

Edit: and to be absolutely clear, I have always been in agreement that the driver could have done better.

John_Rambo

Some drivers even have perceived blindspots in small cars!!! So always beware of people and what they consider "blindspots".

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625660#Comment_119625660

Im sorry you read that as patronising, really. I'm just going for absolute clearest language.

I have never at any point said that the responsibility for checking and performing observations is anyone but the drivers responsibility (nor that the driver didn't f**k up here). I have only said that sitting in the sweet spot between mirrors, colloquially known as the blind spot, is going to increase risk. I would be worried for anyone that disagrees with that statement and chooses to ride or drive in that position.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625668#Comment_119625668

And yes, it's ridiculous in a small car, but some people just don't look, don't adjust mirrors between different drivers or are just clean forgetful/stupid/whatever!

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625668#Comment_119625668

Reminds me of that HSA ad where one of the actors came forward and said they were made move to make it appear they were in a blind spot that didn't exist.

Soooo, any near misses lately?

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625042#Comment_119625042

The reason clip was originally posted was to be portrayed as a victim not for an honest discussion on

*the failures of either party

* the best way to deal with similar incidents

*the law as it pertains to overtaking on the left

There are loads of situations where a vulnerable road user will be entirely in the right in terms of right of way/the law but should be really careful about being missed by a non observant driver, poor bike path design etc etc.

Open a thread trying to get such things discussed and watch it die a death. Open one here/facebook/youtube about being a victim of poor driving/an asshole or whatever and watch the traffic and likes flow.

Social media has greatly amplified the social value we put in victimhood hence the above phenomena

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625987#Comment_119625987

One or two for me of lately due to my temporarilt changed commute. Phibsboro at 8 am is awful.

Blanchardstown at 5-6 pm not much better.

Having loads of people making illegal left turns into Beckett bridge too this week and quite a few who thing pedestrian/cycling lights are not for them to stop at

Liam O

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625708#Comment_119625708

Or you know, only learning to drive...

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626559#Comment_119626559

Absolutely! With big huge L plates on the car!...

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626893#Comment_119626893

You can see in the video that the driver is alone, the L plates are more than likely for someone else, hopefully not being trained by the driver.

Driver got off on a technicality aka a mistake by the Gardai

https://twitter.com/Maulvirane/status/1570503741518000130?s=20&t=GqhSc8kU3JzN4HHQoNZFeA

From the comments the OP mentions the driver lawyered up to get her off on the technicality so theres the cost of that I suppose.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119624400#Comment_119624400

Basically what you posted is that according to legislation drivers only need to pay heed to cycle lanes/tracks when stationary/parking but once driving they cease to exist?

Not much action here the last couple of days, either people like to argue their points or drivers or copping on a bit more, possibly due to a lot more 'education' in relation to cyclists these days

Came across these 3 today on twitter. they illustrate, perfectly, the idiocy of bikes sharing bus lanes

https://twitter.com/OisinOhAlmhain/status/1571805449288126466?s=20&t=ZtIc5bxV_c7Uy01clxHHfA

https://twitter.com/declan_doherty/status/1571827103888441347?s=20&t=GAPHY-iPLy2O-TjoYApyMA

https://twitter.com/garlittle/status/1571837408680845313?s=20&t=W29JxnsYptuPWwzzqLrlSw

DaveyDave

Jaysis that first clip, and he continues to move towards him when they're stopped. That in itself should warrant a fine for intimidation.

It's gas how aggressive they are towards cyclists but will purposely drive slow when they have a passenger. I got stuck behind two of them doing 65-70kph on the N4 leaving Dublin city centre one night, purposely not using the bus lane with the second car blocking the overtaking lane.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119638960#Comment_119638960

Exactly, 'professional' drivers my arse.

Never seems to occur to them that they're actually getting to beat most of the normal traffic, give them a designated lane and they're still not happy, par for the course..

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119638960#Comment_119638960

Fair play he was so relaxed, I'd have lost it and be up in court by now if that first clip happened to me. Not in a hard man type of way but that is attempted murder in my eyes. He has removed any hope or chance of avoiding a collision if anyone makes one slip up following that close. That should be his taxi license taken from him.

standardg60

Unfortunately not a near miss but just passed a bad looking incident at the Taylors Lane roundabout.

Hope the cyclist is ok.

Squidgy Black

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119643579#Comment_119643579

Christ I hope she’s okay.

Terrible infrastructure accompanied by “professional” drivers who also seem to be the most aggressive and ignorant on the road.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119643579#Comment_119643579

Yep that's it Seth, had just happened when i passed as no emergency services on scene.

Young enough girl unfortunately, clearly took a hard fall as she hadn't moved from when i saw her to when those pics were taken.

Do hope she's ok, quite a sobering image.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119643592#Comment_119643592

I thanked the post in relation to the professional drivers bit but have no idea why you think the infrastructure is terrible.

I use this roundabout most days and it's clear as day that there's a 'lane' on your left that you need to be aware of. Thanks to Buffalo above i think it's pretty much set in stone now that a cycle track is indeed a lane which you need to yield to when crossing it, like any other.

It actually caused me to spend the rest of the day observing drivers turning left opposite me to see how many checked their left mirror before turning. It was pretty shocking tbh..

magicbastarder

not sure i'd stop and take photos of someone being treated at the scene of a collision like that.

she can't be identified in the photo but it is a bit ghoulish.