Near Misses Volume 2 (So close you can feel it)

Sono Topolino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120885687#Comment_120885687

I've said it before and I'll say it again - "1.5 metres" is not written anywhere in our law. The legislation requires the motorist not to endanger you, and you haven't proven that he did. Furthermore, there was a cycle lane just beside you!

Sono Topolino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120886299#Comment_120886299

Yes - the lane was obstructed further ahead. Not at the point at which the cyclist was overtaken.

DaveyDave

1.5m distance and cycle lane aside, keeping a safe distance from the curb would put them at the very least on the line of that cycle lane. It being a narrow enough road would make me move out a bit more to make it clear you're not squeezing past.

Even if you did use the cycle lane it's smart to stay out because there's a second car obstructing the lane that you have to pass. Going in again just forces you to stop because cars will squeeze past.

TheHouseIRL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120886287#Comment_120886287

I made no mention of a 1.5m distance, but continue having conversations in your own head if you wish.

I notice you made a very selective reference to the Road Traffic Act with regard to overtaking. For the sake of completeness, let's take a look at the full statement that you've extracted from:

10. (1) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, if to do so would endanger, or cause inconvenience to, any other person.

(2) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, unless the roadway ahead of the driver—

( a ) is free from approaching traffic, pedestrians and any obstruction, and

( b ) is sufficiently long and wide to permit the overtaking to be completed without danger or inconvenience to other traffic or pedestrians.

Now, would you like to consider again whether the driver in question caused inconvenience or danger to me or the oncoming traffic (notwithstanding the fact that he performed the overtake into oncoming traffic, a direct violation of 2a)?

Sono Topolino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120886524#Comment_120886524

But this thread is about cyclists having near misses with cars, so the oncoming traffic is not relevant. Also, it's clear that if you had been in the cycle lane he would not have had to overtake into oncoming traffic. It's not clear at all to me from the video that he inconvenienced or endangered you. The reason I made reference to 1.5m is that there is a widespread misconception that it is the law of the land (largely through the actions of the Road Safety Authority and various cycling lobby groups trying to construe it as such). The government in fact considered specifically legislating for 1.5m, but decided it was unfeasible given how narrow many of our roads are. As such, the only rules that drivers must observe are in passing cyclists are:

1. the driver must not force the cyclist to reduce speed or take evasive action;
2. the driver must not make physical contact with the cyclist/bike frame.

You can certainly argue that the close pass "endangered you", but the driver would undoubtedly argue (and An Gárda Síochána generally tend to agree with this argument) that as they did not force you to reduce your speed or take evasive action (to avoid a collison), and they did not make contact with you/your bike frame you were not actually in danger. The burden of proof is on you to prove that you were in danger and unfortunately you have not done so. Again, An Gárda Síochána assess "endangering cyclists" based on the following objective metrics:

1. whether the cyclist reduced speed/took evasive action
2. whether or not the actions of the driver resulted in a collision (however minor).

Close passes that do not feature the above hallmarks remain legal. 1.5m is still an unenforceable "guideline" because the legislature considers it (for now at least) to be unrealistic. Should this change? The government certainly does not think so (despite a Green Party TD being minister for transport). I would also argue (as An Garda Síochána and even the Road Safety Authority has in the past) that if you are not comfortable having close encounters with drivers you can always choose routes with protected cycle lanes, and use cycle lanes (whether or not they are protected) where they are available.

TheHouseIRL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120887027#Comment_120887027

Right, so what you're saying is that I forced him to overtake into oncoming traffic, causing danger and inconvenience to both the oncoming drivers as well as myself?

As others have already pointed out, cyclists are not required to use cycle lanes where provided except in very specific circumstances. In this case, the only road users who have violated the Road Traffic Act are the driver who overtook into oncoming traffic, and the driver who parked in a 24 hour clearway.

As for the overtake inconveniencing me, I did have to reduce my speed and alter my line.

Can you cite where in the Road Traffic Act you sourced your statements about drivers only requirements being to "not force the cyclist to reduce speed or take evasive action" or "not make physical contact with the cyclist/bike frame"?

Mr. Cats

Judging by his/her posting history, including starting a thread on why don’t cyclist pay motor tax and have insurance, I guess it’s the latter.

magicbastarder

as they did not force you to reduce your speed or take evasive action (to avoid a collison)

you can quite clearly see the cyclist in the video changed position as a result of the pass.

Sono Topolino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120887102#Comment_120887102

No, you did not force him to do anything. I'm simply stating that by not cycling in the cycle lane, you bear some of the responsibility for this situation arising. The government spends quite a bit of taxpayers money on building and maintaining cycle lanes, and if cyclists refuse to use them, then it's hardly fair to complain about close interactions with motorists. Again, I did not address section 10(2)(a) because it's not relevant to a thread about cyclists and therefore OT.

Assuming you are correct regarding speed/position (which I did not observe in the video) then the motorist violated section 10(1).

Regarding the RTA, this is not written into the legislation but is considered by AGS to be the most fair and objective measure of cyclist endangerment. If a cyclist maintains their line, does not reduce their speed and there is no collision/contact then they were never in danger, or so the thinking goes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120887135#Comment_120887135

Both. I commute by bike to and from work whenever I am in up in Dublin, and use my bike for other errands as it beats travelling by car unless I have passengers. Cycling infrastructure has improved so much in the last five years that there are bike lanes most places I go. Yes there are occasionally deliver vans etc blocking bike lanes, but with proper hand signalling and checking the relative speed of cars, I am generally able to pass them safely. Proper hand signalling also means that motorists can't use the "cyclist appeared out of nowhere" line.

TheHouseIRL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120887270#Comment_120887270

So you can't cite anywhere in the RTA, or indeed anywhere else, where you got those statements from (aside from 'Trust me bro, this is what AGS do' which isn't exactly a strong argument).

As an experienced cyclist yourself, can you walk me through how you would have approached the situation? Where would you have pulled out of the cycle lane? Where would you have pulled into the cycle lane? How much clearance would you have given the parked vehicles when passing?

The government could spend a billion euro on that one cycle lane, and if people still park illegally in it, I'm going to leave the cycle lane in order to get around the obstruction, and I'm also going to do it in plenty of time to avoid any sort of "cyclist came out of nowhere" excuses. Weaving in and out of the cycle lane at the last second is a far more dangerous approach.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120887187#Comment_120887187

ooh, i'd forgotten about that. that's a corker of an OP in that thread.

DaveyDave

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120887187#Comment_120887187

Motor tax threads are always funny considering the majority of cyclists here own a car. Quite a lot of them own nice cars too and several grands worth of multiple bikes and when you consider the aero carbon bikes or ebikes that a lot of people have you're talking a significant contribution of VAT that would more than make up for any tax.

I've paid nearly €2,000 in VAT on the bikes and wheels currently in my house. That would be worth 20 years of EV motor tax!

If anyone needs to pay tax it's the trucks, buses and campervans all on a €300 odd rate but I wonder if they know that...

Mr. Cats

Here’s a quote for aforementioned OP:

”If cyclists want to cycle on main roads in rural Ireland, then they should pay for greenways for this purpose.

Until then, they're a nuisance and a menace. So cyclists really have no arguments against mandatory insurance either.”

I guess they won’t be convinced by logic or the RTA here…

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120887270#Comment_120887270

@Sono Topolino "Regarding the RTA, this is not written into the legislation but is considered by AGS to be the most fair and objective measure of cyclist endangerment. If a cyclist maintains their line, does not reduce their speed and there is no collision/contact then they were never in danger, or so the thinking goes."

That's not the AGS interpretation in my experience, thankfully. I've had them accept multiple videos I've submitted for FCN penalties for overtaking me on a blind bend. I don't slow down or take evasive action, and the Gardai I've reported these incidents to accept that the danger arises because the overtaking driver is gambling that they won't meet another vehicle coming around the bend towards them, that would force them to make a choice between hitting the oncoming vehicle or sharply pulling back in left and hitting me.

Mr. Cats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120887527#Comment_120887527

I’m not a racist, some of my best friends….etc

CramCycle

I have had a similar discussion with tourists in my area recently who all seem to think that because they didn't meet a car as they overtook my on a blind bend, then the manoeuvre wasn't dangerous. One nearly did and hadn't realised that I had actually hit my brakes as soon as they started as I could actually hear the farm machinery. If it had been a car, I probably would not have heard and it probably would have been going faster. This idea that because nothing bad happens it must be OK is a bizarre one.

@Sono Topolino just because a crash didn't happen doesn't mean a fine or prosecution won't take place, all it really means is that if you don't have it on video it is very much a you said/they said scenario. A great reason for all motorists and cyclists to have cameras where possible.

Viscount Aggro

Try cycling through Ranelagh.

I've nearly been taken out of it,

Motorists come shooting out of side roads. The cycle lanes have cars parked along them.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120887270#Comment_120887270

The cycle lane that had a parked taxi and another parked car creating an obstruction. both illegally on double yellows too. Driver then went into a mandatory cycle lane.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120884803#Comment_120884803

Nearly 4 years now but it's worth a shot, it's not like the cameras are cheap.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120885903#Comment_120885903

It more looks (to me) like he has issues controlling his vehicle, it could be what you said, neither are good

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120888274#Comment_120888274

Not unless the car started to speed up dramatically. The car didn't change speed much and overtook while the cyclist was going around the parked vehicle at 15 seconds. You might have a point if it happened after the 2nd car parked in the cycle lane where the poster had ample time to pull in but in this video there was only a few seconds before the next vehicle.

If it was me, the next car is a few seconds up the road so I'm not pulling in to get pinched by passing traffic, it would be dangerous to do so.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120888274#Comment_120888274

You're right the cyclist should have looked back, seen that there was only one car coming behind him, calculated that vehicle's speed of approach and the likelihood of another vehicle arriving behind that one, then calculated their own speed and distance as they approached the obstacle, and gambled that they wouldn't have got stuck behind the car parked in the cycle lane, so as not to delay that important motorist by so many seconds.

DaveyDave

If you've been cycling for a few years you know that if you pull in after the first car you're likely to get stuck behind the second waiting for traffic to pass. The second car is close enough so you might as well stay out. It's not like you're doing anything wrong by doing that just making your life a bit easier, why should a cyclist have to do anything different just to make the motorists life easier? It's not like they're holding traffic up doing 10kph up Alp d'Huez. Do you really need to pull it so a car doesn't have to fully move over to pass? Do you need to wipe the motorists arse too?

magicbastarder

the cyclist passed the second car three seconds after the motorist passed him. and would probably have been pulling back out anyway at that point had he opted to briefly enter the cycle lane.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120891139#Comment_120891139

Found his bike

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120887027#Comment_120887027

What’s your source please for the specific claim about the reason for not including the 1.5 m distance in legislation, “because the legislature considers it (for now at least) to be unrealistic”?

Sono Topolino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120887532#Comment_120887532

Overtaking on a blind bend is dangerous driving, regardless of whether the motorist is overtaking a cyclist or a car, so this isn't a good example. There is no legal "minimum passing distance" for cyclists - you are simply required not to endanger them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120892581#Comment_120892581

There was very public row about this a few years ago when Shane Ross tried to introduce legislation about it - surely you remember?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120888274#Comment_120888274

This is expressly recommended in the RSA's "rules of the road". The slower vehicle should keep left to give the faster vehicle an opportunity to pass safely. Given that everyone here is of the opinion that cyclists are part of the traffic, then they should at least honour the spirit of the rules of the road.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120887691#Comment_120887691

I live in Rathmines and cycle through Ranelagh quite regularly. It's not too difficult, provided you wear high visibility clothing (especially in the early mornings and evenings) maintain awareness of your environment, signal your intention frequently and do not mind getting stuck behind cars/vans/busses for a few minutes at a time. Problems arise when you try to be a smart arse and get ahead quickly, thus putting your neck on the line. The speed limit in Ranelagh and Rathmines is 30kph/50kph depending which "end" you are on, so it's easier to gauge driver intentions than out in Galway county, for example.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120888557#Comment_120888557

So you lose 30 seconds to a minute of your day. Isn't this exactly the kind of thinking cyclists accuse "obnoxious" drivers of?

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897358#Comment_120897358

Jesus. Can't say wearing hi viz has ever - not even once - helped my pedal my bike. How does hi viz stop you from getting pinched by parked cars? "try to be a smart arse" ... "trying to get ahead quickly"... "putting your neck on the line"... your mask has well and truly slipped. It's not that hard to drive considerately. You're not that important that you need to "get ahead quickly". And in most cases, the only ones putting cyclists necks on the line are drivers from the categories of 'clueless', 'aggressive', 'selfish' and 'sorry I've just got to read this WhatsApp'.

There is absolutely no way that the cyclist in that clip should have pulled in to the cycle lane as it is absolutely clear from the footage that his instincts about the driver behind were spot on - he'd have been forced to brake due to the other clown of a driver that sees cycles lanes as fair game for dumping their car and the one behind who just couldn't care less about anyone else on the road. What was the driver's rush to "get ahead quickly" - why did he have to be such a smart arse? Could he not just have waited for a few more seconds and overtaken when the cyclist had moved into the clear bike lane or there was no oncoming traffic?

Your attitude is typical of so many motorists - where you have two road users, the cyclist should always inconvenience themselves so that the motorist can be less inconvenienced.

As for "I'm simply stating that by not cycling in the cycle lane, you bear some of the responsibility for this situation arising" ... thankfully that prehistoric attitude of "you bear some responsibility for being a victim due to the clothes you were wearing" has been well debunked over the past few decades by more enlightened members of the judiciary. Absolutely no different here. Cyclist did absolutely nothing wrong, was not legally required to use the cycle lane, the cycle lane had vehicles parked in it, there was very little traffic behind him and he was moving at a decent clip in a relatively low speed-limited area.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897358#Comment_120897358

The reason given at the time was Gardai claimed it would be difficult to measure accurately and would lead to issues in court. Now while this was shown to be untrue, government decided to abandon the strict legislation on this point. It was well documented, had nothing to do with the width of roads

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897358#Comment_120897358

You're taking a very tight interpretation while ignoring another. The ROTR also recommend leaving 1..5 metres for an overtake. So that requires a car being at least half way into the other lane.

Make sure you drive your vehicle far enough to the left to allow traffic to safely pass or overtake on the right, but not so far to the left that you are driving on a cycle lane or blocking or endangering cyclists or pedestrians.

At the end of the day, the ROTR have no legal standing. They're guidelines, good advice. No more

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897358#Comment_120897358

@Sono Topolino "There is no legal "minimum passing distance" for cyclists - you are simply required not to endanger them."

@Sono Topolino "This is expressly recommended in the RSA's "rules of the road". The slower vehicle should keep left to give the faster vehicle an opportunity to pass safely."

So the RSA's recommendation about 1m and 1.5m carries no weight, because it's not set down in law, but the RSA's recommendation about slower vehicles keeping to the left should be followed, even though it's also not set down in law? I'm struggling to understand the contradiction here? I mean surely the different interpretations you arrive at couldn't be just down to the fact that the guidance you want to ignore might cause a driver a fractional delay in their journey in order to ensure safety of vulnerable road users, and the guidance you advocate adhering too could inconvenience/endanger vulnerable road users but might result in a fractional reduction in a driver's journey time?

Also worth noting that you continue to insist the drivers are "simply required not to endanger" other road users, even when it has been pointed out to you the the actual legislation specifies that a driver should not "inconvenience" other road users while overtaking.

And especially relevant that the RSA guidance on keeping to the left is far from absolute. The RSA makes it very clear in the Rules of the Road that there are multiple situations were a cyclist would correctly take the 'primary position'.

The level of cherry-picking in your posts is off the charts.

Sono Topolino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898109#Comment_120898109

Yes, I'm glad we agree that the rules of the road are not the law of the land. Just as cyclists are recommended to keep left (i.e. use a cycle lane where available), motorists are recommended to keep 1.5 metres distance overtaking. Importantly, keeping left facilitates safe overtaking. But none of this is actually enforceable, just good practice.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898117#Comment_120898117

Page 199 states that cyclists must keep left while keeping clear of the kerb. On left hand side of the road there is a cycle lane provided for this purpose. Again, these are just "guidelines" and are not enforceable.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898401#Comment_120898401

Actually , in most people's experience keeping left leads to dangerous overtakes and close calls. Taking the centre of the lane forces a car to overtake a bike like they would a car.

I'm leaving it at that, you're arguing against yourself at times and raising so many redundant points it's not worth the effort

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897358#Comment_120897358

There were lots of opinions on the matter when Shane Ross DID actually bring in dangerous overtaking legislation, opinions from legislators and other stakeholders. You appear to have jumped to one particular conclusion about the rationale for not having 1.5m as part of the legislation for no particular reason. The legislature never expressed a firm view on the matter.

magicbastarder

i remain sceptical about the idea of creating a law based around a specific measurement, which is not measured. you know what would happen if a motorist was taken to court for speeding, having been eyewitnessed by a garda, with no measuring equipment. the judge would throw it out, because you can't say someone was speeding if there was no attempt to record the speed.

and yes, granted, it's possible the motorist could be done for careless or dangerous driving - but that is then analogous to the situation we face with dangerous overtaking of a cyclist.

magicbastarder

not a near miss really because she basically sent it to me in a stamped addressed envelope, but the dozy shrug i got off this lady when she finally saw me was a classic of the genre.

my mspaint skills may not clearly indicate that she *was* actually entering the bus lane.

McGrath5

Following my double puncture last week on the N11 southbound, I was using the bus lane this morning and a Dublin Bus driver decided to beep me out of it, flapping his arms about and gave me a punishment pass because I had the audacity not to be in the glass covered covered cycle lane.

fineso.mom

I don't think I've ever posted in this thread but I saw this earlier and thought it was a great idea.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/13p5w2g/company_put_drivers_on_a_bicycle_to_know_how_bad/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120981967#Comment_120981967

Nope, has to be a specific stretch. I'd recommend from LIDL in North Bray as far as the Topaz in Kilmac. A few km where every experience of being a cyclist can happen in a few km.

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120982079#Comment_120982079

Bonus points/ free cake if they manage not to become road kill while navigating the Southern Cross junction.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120981105#Comment_120981105

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120986648#Comment_120986648

You can also get access to any CCTV from the bus cameras that shows yourself, which helps to cut out the discussion about the nature of the pass. There's a guide on IrishCycle.com to requesting the CCTV details.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120981499#Comment_120981499

Somebody proposed this training tactic to the former CEO of Dublin Bus on Twitter a few years back. He responded to say it would be too dangerous.

CramCycle

Don't attribute to intentional what can more easily be explained by stupidity.

School season is about to kick off but I thought I'd have a few more days. Coming up towards the N11, In the bike lane when a car came past within 2cm, and then continued to drift in slowly for the next 100m, not wobbling, precision driving. It was only a few seconds after I realised it was not intentional, just tiredness/inattentiveness/stupidity. I mean the outcome, if it went wrong, is not mitigated by this fact but it was nice to realise it wasn't unjustified rage.

To give an idea of the closeness, I was on my not normal 36cm handlebars. If I had the 44cm the bike came with, they would have taken my bars from under me.

Schorpio

Held off posting this for a while because it was with the Gardai. However, it's been 6 months since I gave them the footage and a statement, and I've heard nothing back. Probably the closest I've ever come to being seriously injured on the bike.

The wide-angle lens on the camera doesn't do it justice, but the van swerves into my path to avoid colliding head-on with the truck. It was total insanity.

The worst part is that we're 30 seconds or less from a long, wide stretch of road; where passing is much safer. All this risk, all the lives put on the line (at least mine and his) for 30 seconds.

This is what the Gardai, the RSA, and all of the road safey bodies need to focus on. Not helmets, high-viz, or victim-blaming. We always hear of the tragedies, but these near-misses are happening too, and most aren't on video. Just becasue they "got away with it" and no one got hurt is not an excuse. We can't bring people back when they're gone, so sh*t like this needs to be made an example of. This needs to be stamped out the hard way.

And for the record, I had front and 2 back lights. I was in high-viz. I was wearing a helmet. All of which would have done the sweet sum of f*ck all had this gone slightly differently.

https://streamable.com/vtcm6m

CramCycle

@Schorpio F*ck me is all I have to say to that, maybe 2 seconds away from a fatal collision for either you or the driver. What are the Gardai playing at, the number of easy offences you could add together there and have them close to off the road with minimal effort is ridiculous. No wonder I gave up reporting.

magicbastarder

straight into a blind bend on the wrong side of the road.

p15574

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058433#Comment_121058433

I'd quote-tweet an RSA tweet about road deaths with this, and suggest that perhaps Garda inaction is a major cause of encouraging reckless driving like this.

Weepsie

I had 2 very dopey near misses this week. One on Jones road approaching clonliffe. Tipping along, intending car begins to overtake and immediatygoes to turn left. I had to give a big shout and turn with them as I was otherwise coming close to hitting them. They didn't seem to realize how stupid they were

Other on ballymun road, I'm heading towards town, another coming the other way ks waiting to turn to their right to Albert college park. They wait til I'm within hitting distance to ro their turn. Worse still they were a left hand drive too so they were staring out the driver window at me too .

Both incidents I had a feeling they were going to do stupid things so was ready.

Also red light running has reached new absurd heights

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058433#Comment_121058433

JFC, even if there had been no cyclist present, that was absolutely crazy driving. With the cyclist in the mix, it was just plain lethal, and deliberately so. Shame on AGS for not acting on this.

Mr. Cats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121059595#Comment_121059595

I do sense that given all the tragic events of the last few weeks that now is a good time to try. You could send to journo of below article and/or Liz O’Donnell to ask why the guards don’t enforce the law on near misses. Something has to change.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-style/people/2023/09/02/lethal-summer-why-have-so-many-people-been-killed-on-irish-roads-this-year/