M4 - Maynooth to Leixlip [constr. of inbound bus lane underway;planning and design underway on rest]

getoutadodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120435157#Comment_120435157

Really ? I use this line regularly but only outside rush hours. Seldom see it busy. Often I have a carriage to myself? So where's the demand. It runs every 30 minutes so it's a great service which rarely requires a long wait. I love it. It passes densely packed suburbs like Cabra, Ashington, Ashtown, Castleknock etc . As a bonus it connects with Broombridge as a feeder so very handy if ya want to avoid Connolly. The Lucan stop, I admit, is a bit of a dud since its far way up a steep hill from the village. Do locals in these suburbs not use it preferring cars or busses ?

Whether its electrified (at great cost ) or stays at it is misses the point. Is the demand there?

buffalo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122649249#Comment_122649249

Try it during rush hour, not only will you not get a carriage to yourself, you'll barely get a seat to yourself!

Some trains are almost standing room only leaving Maynooth. New timetable hasn't helped, especially the 30+min gap up to the ~7am train.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122649249#Comment_122649249

I'm not sure what line you're using as there isn't a Lucan stop, its the busiest non-DART commuter line in the country with Maynooth being the 9th or 10th busiest station in the country.

getoutadodge

Sorry I meant Leixslip.

Granted I use it only outside rush hour because I bring a bike… so I'm not getting the full picture.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122650145#Comment_122650145

It'd be one of the busiest commuter lines outside of peak also, and has peak traffic in both directions due to MU and Intel - more so than some sections of the DART.

Coolmine is close to the top ten busiest stations as well as Maynooth being in it. New station at Pelletstown was an instant success and is very busy.

joeymcg

Mmmm lovely, lovely roads

Shame it's not what's being talked about here...

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122649196#Comment_122649196

A shortage of money? €8bn surplus last year. €8bn surplus this year. Plus €14bn Apple money. Infrastructure is exactly where this should be spent and the majority roads projects that are to be build would cost less than €3bn. That still leaves plenty of money for MN, DART+, BusConnects, hospitals, schools etc.

Money is not an issue.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122650625#Comment_122650625

Surplus is the operative word there - its not in the transport budget, or any budget.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122650629#Comment_122650629

But the money is there and it could easily be added to future budgets. Or put into a multi year infrastructural fund separate from the budget.

veryangryman

I can see a mirror to the English m4 bus lane situation where common sense will make them change this to a regular lane.

Until every suburb from kinnegad to leixlip gets a direct bus service to city, the lane will be underutilised

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122650845#Comment_122650845

They've just signed a contract for westbound consultancy on another bus lane. Another Mickey Mouse project courtesy of Eamon Ryan. The real schemes were downgraded to this rubbish which benefits nobody. Buses are not stuck in traffic on the M4. There is hardly any of them in the first place. Absurd waste of our money and they will obviously be turned in to regular lanes at a later date. It's all nonsense.

Another thing I have noticed - They've referred to the eastbound one as the "pilot scheme". So the "pilot" scheme isn't up and running yet (it's barely started construction) so everyone can see it's a load of bs yet they sign another contract to waste more of our money.

That's what we're dealing with.

spacetweek

Scheme is well underway, I drove alongside it over the weekend.

As it takes over the hard shoulder, there’s no possibility of it ever being turned into a general running lane. If it did, where would the hard shoulder be then?

What’s needed is the original six laning plan, with the buslanes being nice to haves.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658280#Comment_122658280

I saw it recently too - well under construction at this stage. I agree that the new 'bus lane' will not be turned into a general running lane, they tried having no hard shoulders on motorways in the UK and it's been a cluster***k. We absolutely should not do the same thing here.

BTW what is (or will be) the law regarding breakdowns on the "motorway with a bus lane" thing they're doing here? Like if you are driving a car and you suffer a burst tire or engine overheating, will you be allowed to pull into the bus lane?

veryangryman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658428#Comment_122658428

In an emergency there's not much you're not allowed to do to get to safety. Buses are free to use any lane they want ad per this case.

The problem with bus lanes and buses in general is the multi stopping. If i get on in say Kinnegad, the bus service stops in about 20 locations. Even with this new lane i can still get from door to Heuston far quicker in car than getting to bus. Non stop buses in rush hours would get there quicker than car.

DumbBrunette

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658428#Comment_122658428

The hard shoulder will still legally be the hard shoulder and can be used in an emergency. However they are also adding refuge areas every 500 metres so cars can pull in.

Charles Babbage

This is a shocking proposal. Motorways need proper hard shoulders, end of. We should not start this British style degrading of our road network.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122662616#Comment_122662616

The refuge areas mean cars can get off the road if needed. Hard shoulders come from a time when cars broke down regularly, modern cars don't breakdown often. The hard shoulder is for emergency use but I'd say it is more often used for non-emergencies. For the short distance involved, I can't see this being an issue.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122663071#Comment_122663071

It is degrading the road network and these is no need for this in a country which had the funds to do it properly. Your defence seems to be that it is only a short bit, but it sets a bad principle. The government should not make roads more dangerous in a country where the fatality rate is increasing, yet they are taking well designed motorways and compromising them with this, turning off street lights and who knows what else.

spacetweek

As a parent of a young child, the hard shoulder on a motorway is often used when your child suddenly has to pee and there’s no time to go to a formal toilet. (That certainly qualifies as an emergency use!)

You absolutely have to be able to pull your car over on a motorway, we can’t replace it with a bus lane.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122663293#Comment_122663293

How would it make roads more dangerous? Having a mostly empty bus lane between the driving lanes and the refuge area would make it safer than a narrow hard shoulder with cars whizzing by at 120km/h. 500m between refuge areas is nothing and if a car absolutely had to pull in immediately and couldn't move any further, it could use the bus lane anyway. You seem to assume that the current design is perfect but what's proposed is actually better on approach to cities.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122663884#Comment_122663884

Mostly empty. Indeed. This benefits nobody.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122664019#Comment_122664019

Most roads are mostly empty too. At peak times, the road can be packed with cars inching along, while an observer might think the bus lane is barely used, just a couple of seconds of a bus flying past every few minutes - the bus lane would still be more effective in transporting people. A bus lane here would benefit a hell of a lot more people than a hard shoulder.

If the hard shoulder is so precious to you, and you want to benefit the most people possible, then presumably you'd be in favour of retaining the hard shoulder and converting one of the road lanes to a bus lane instead?

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122664176#Comment_122664176

Stop trying to gaslight. The proposal here was straight forward and easy - 3 lanes each way. The Greens messed it up and now we are left with this substandard pointless waste of money.

The Greens will be gone soon and we can get back to progress.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122664204#Comment_122664204

Where is the proposal for 3 lanes each way?

spacetweek

That was the proposal for literally years! Then the proposal was six lanes and bus lanes each way. Then it got massively watered down to this.

I call this a Paint Project as it’s mostly paint to redraw the lane markings.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122664219#Comment_122664219

All because Eamon Ryan didn't want the lunatics in his party seeing new road construction literally anywhere.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122664219#Comment_122664219

Various options were considered, 3 lanes in each direction was one but this wasn't selected. Good thing too as it would have only made the traffic jam wider and not have improved journey times as the real issues are east of the project area.

Jayuu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122664229#Comment_122664229

As I said in another forum, Greens in or out of government, we're simply not going to turn around and start building six lane highways in this country any more. You have years of disappointment ahead of you if you think it's only Eamon Ryan who is preventing your nirvana of tarmacing the entire country.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122664229#Comment_122664229

Would that be similar to how other political parties ensured that we saw almost no heavy rail lines being built and a relatively small amount of light rail being built for several decades?

spacetweek

It is a canard that motorways shouldn’t be widened because this just gets you to the bottleneck faster closer into the city. Many motorsists are not going all the way into the centre of the city, so their journey time would be improved as they don’t hit the bottleneck you are referring to.
Regarding a change in attitudes towards “tarmacking the country“, if we go down this very bad path that the UK has gone down where you can no longer justify widening roads or building any new motorways then we will just fall further and further behind other countries because everywhere I look (except the UK) I see sensible policy applied to public transport and roads, and for roads this means widening where needed.

If 6 lanes are needed, and they are, despite what the options selection might’ve shown, then six lanes is what must be provided. If that takes a ministerial change or change at the top of TII then so be it but it’s just a matter of time.

buffalo

"sensible policy" = "policy I agree with"

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122672825#Comment_122672825

It is a canard that motorways shouldn’t be widened because this just gets you to the bottleneck faster closer into the city.

The bottleneck isn't even that much closer to the city, it's between junctions 5 and 6. You have the Liffey bridge and the pier of the J5 overbridge which make adding more lanes extremely difficult and costly. A third lane west of there would achieve absolutely nothing.

if we go down this very bad path that the UK has gone down where you can no longer justify widening roads or building any new motorways then we will just fall further and further behind other countries because everywhere I look (except the UK) I see sensible policy applied to public transport and roads

Well anywhere you look around Europe you will see them providing quality public transport and incentivising people to use it, particularly for commuting purposes. That's not to say that roads aren't being expanded, but it will very rarely be the case in other countries that they expand a road on approach to a city without also providing a viable public transport alternative. "widening where needed" generally has a very high bar to meet "needed".

If that takes a ministerial change or change at the top of TII then so be it but it’s just a matter of time.

If you think a new MfT is going to add an extra lane to the M4 east of Maynooth, then you are delusional.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122673540#Comment_122673540

You've no idea what's coming when Eamon Ryan is moved on. Roads and widening will be very much back on the agenda and rightly so. What we've had is obstruction.

scrabtom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122676633#Comment_122676633

Dream on buddy

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122672825#Comment_122672825

If people are going to the "city" from Leixlip, then they should take a train, not go on a bus. Buses are no use to people going to diverse locations, so the road should be widened.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122682093#Comment_122682093

The busses from Leixlip bring people to various locations around the city:

52 = Ringsend
C3 = Ringsend Rd
C5 = Ringsend Rd
L54 = Red Cow Luas
X25 = UCD
X31 = Earlsfort Terrace
X32 = Earlsfort Terrace
X25 = Leeson St Lwr
X26 = Leeson St Lwr
139 = IT Blanch

For many, these bring people to their destination in a way that the train cannot. Either way, your reasoning doesn't really justify a motorway widening.

(The other two routes passing through the village are:)
L58 = Hazelhatch (and eventually Newcastle IIRC)
L59 = Celbridge & Hazelhatch (and eventually Newcastle IIRC)

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122672825#Comment_122672825

The focus across the world (apart from perhaps the US) is firmly on public transport. Just look at the advances of bullet trains in China and Japan, the next big project in the UK is HS1, the extensive network in France, and that's before you look at public transport commuting services which are expanding in nearly every city in the world.

Roads are a much lower priority.

spacetweek

<bangs head on desk>

But we are doing public transport too….

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122697641#Comment_122697641

Roads are indeed a lower priority, and they are the wrong end of a 2:1 ratio for spending in the Programme for Government. I would personally argue 2:1 is too low and it should be 3:1 in favour of public transport.

But if you have a 3:1 ratio of something you also have to honour the 1. Ireland cannot function without its roads network and this will not change no matter how much climate alarmism is applied to Government policies.

There's also significant scope for debate on whether qualified civil engineers who have developed TII into a very competent agency who do a very good job of managing and improving the roads network despite often receiving funding shortfalls can have their expertise completely overruled by climate activists.

scrabtom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122699899#Comment_122699899

"Climate alarmism"

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122699921#Comment_122699921

Fiddling with motorway projects in Ireland is not going to make any meaningful impact on the world's attempts to solve the climate crisis. Especially when it's Government policy to begin removing all vehicles that cause tailpipe emissions from the roads, and it's a clear Government objective to decarbonise our electricity system.

Pete_Cavan

To keep things on topic, it is worth reiterating that it is TII who are proposing adding a bus lane here. They chose it over the option of adding additional general traffic lanes.

Motorway widening on approach to cities hasn't been a part of their plans for a long time. Bringing more and more cars onto and inside the M50 every morning isn't an option. Since the M1 widening projects more than a decade ago, it hasn't been on the agenda.

Kermit.de.frog

The UK messed around with removing hard shoulders on motorways. Now they've had to reverse gear.

We are making the highest safety standard of road less safe for zero benefit. It will have to be reversed.

There is little point in arguing the toss. The Greens will be out on their ear soon. We could go through the list of damage they've done to this state through willfulness, ignorance, obstruction for mindless ideology whether it's energy security, aviation, the roads, taxes etc etc.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122701740#Comment_122701740

You still think this is the Greens' idea. It is not. It's TII's own recommendations, based on their own and international research. The traffic modelling would have showed them that widening M4 would have increased congestion where it meets M50, and that the would be no net benefit anywhere within a few years.

This scheme is nothing like the UK's "managed motorways" programme.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122701740#Comment_122701740

The proposal affects 7km of our almost 1000km motorway network. The proposal is also for regular refuge areas. It will make negligible different to safety but providing faster and more reliable bus services will have significant benefits.

"It will have to be reversed" such horseshıt - your posts honestly can't be taken seriously.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122699921#Comment_122699921

Yep, climate alarmism is right.
If you won’t build roads or widen them because something something carbon emissions, something something tyre dust, something something brake pad dust then that is certainly alarmism.
We widened the M1 and M7 approaches to Dublin as they are strategic road corridors and unless we’re planning on capping car use then vehicle traffic is a fact of life. But widening the N3, M4 and N11 was left for too long and they’re impossible to justify now because we moved the goalposts. And that is very regrettable.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122702773#Comment_122702773

Vehicle traffic on the M50 is effectively capped. A bit more capacity can be sqeezed out through active management like variable speed limits but nothing huge and further widening isn't an option. Traffic through the city centre is being reduced, as is the case for many cities around Europe (unless they heavily restricted through traffic in the past, in which case they aren't doing it now). This road is only overcapacity for a few hours a day, the majority of the day it is fine, adding lanes doesn't make sense, particularly when there will be no increase in capacity further east. For the few hours the road is overcapacity, giving the additional capacity created to more efficient forms of transport makes sense.

You can try to make light of the situation by dismissing things like emissions and tyre dust and brake pad dust but that is missing the point entirely. Pure logic dictates that more efficient forms of transport should be prioritised, it is painfully obvious.

buffalo

I don't often drive the M/N4 at rush hour, but had to do so this morning. An extra private traffic lane would be absolutely pointless, it was effectively backed up from the M50 this morning and I don't think there was anything particularly wrong. So an extra lane would just get people to the back of the traffic jam sooner and along with induced demand, create a wider, longer traffic jam. 🤷

veryangryman

Can we officially start punching people who use the induced demand argument. Give me a 10 lane highway from ballina to belmullet and i promise you you will never see a traffic jam there

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122727448#Comment_122727448

The phrase is ‘induced demand’, not induced traffic jam.