Secondary School - is single gender better than co-ed?

Toots

I'm trying to figure out what to do about secondary school for my kids (kinda scary seeing as they're 7 and 1 but I've been told I need to start putting their names down asap) and I'm not sure whether to go for a mixed gender school or all boys/girls.

I went to an all girls and my husband went to an all boys secondary school. We both went to mixed primaries, and my son is currently in a mixed primary. I've been hearing loads of different opinions on this, but not from anyone who's had a kid in school within the last decade.

Some are saying that it's better to have all boys/all girls because there's less distractions (?) But others are saying it's better for them to mix.

I'd appreciate any views or advice people have

work

mixed like the real world. Respect is developed by being together

Victor

Toots wrote: »

Some are saying that it's better to have all boys/all girls because there's less distractions

I'm not sure about that.

Except for one class I took outside school, there were no girls in any of my classes from age 7 to 20. Socially, I turned out to be a bit of a disaster - and I resent that.

One eyed Jack

It depends really on the quality of the schools themselves and what your own values and experiences are.

In terms of academic performance at least, the top 10 schools in the country in 2017 were all single-sex schools - all girls in the top 5, followed by all boys schools making up the top 10.

I went to an all boys school and honestly schools haven’t changed that much in the last 20 years. My son goes to a mixed school, and like I did, he still manages to find time outside of school for mixing with his friends. I knew lads who were completely distracted being surrounded by boys in an all boys school, and I knew girls who were the same in the Convent

Really it comes down to where you feel your son will be most comfortable and will be conducive to his academic, social and personal development. I don’t expect you plan on moving counties any time soon to enrol your son in one of the top performing schools, but knowing some of the schools as I do, they’re also not just focused on academic performance, but ensuring every student has a well-rounded education which prepares them as adults for “the real world”.

You’ll also have to consider things like catchment areas and whether or not the school employs what’s called the siblings rule, or whether or not the school prioritises the children of parents who were past students of the school, but that’s all moot if the department of education lottery comes into play where you choose your schools in order of preference - 1st choice, 2nd choice, etc, and take your chances that your application is successful. If it’s not, you may find yourself bumped down to your third or even fourth choice of school!

TL:DR version? There’s a lot more factors to consider in choosing a school for your childs education nowadays than there was 20 years ago when for the most part it was simply a matter of sending your child either to a single sex or a mixed sex school.

judeboy101

Statistically girls do better academically in single sex.

splinter65

Toots wrote: »

I'm trying to figure out what to do about secondary school for my kids (kinda scary seeing as they're 7 and 1 but I've been told I need to start putting their names down asap) and I'm not sure whether to go for a mixed gender school or all boys/girls.

I went to an all girls and my husband went to an all boys secondary school. We both went to mixed primaries, and my son is currently in a mixed primary. I've been hearing loads of different opinions on this, but not from anyone who's had a kid in school within the last decade.

Some are saying that it's better to have all boys/all girls because there's less distractions (?) But others are saying it's better for them to mix.

I'd appreciate any views or advice people have

Toots put the names down for as many schools as is allowed (is there a restriction!) and believe me when they get to 6th class your kids will tell you which school they’re going to!

shesty

I believe girls do better in a single sex and boys do better in mixed.There is research to back that up I think, although I would imagine the quality of the school helps.

I went to a single sex school (girls).I can see the advantages and disadvantages.Currently on the fence, so taking the approach of putting my kids names down for a few different schools locally.When the time comes, I will be making the decision though, it won't be up to my 12 year old to have the final say I'm afraid.

splinter65

shesty wrote: »

I believe girls do better in a single sex and boys do better in mixed.There is research to back that up I think, although I would imagine the quality of the school helps.

I went to a single sex school (girls).I can see the advantages and disadvantages.Currently on the fence, so taking the approach of putting my kids names down for a few different schools locally.When the time comes, I will be making the decision though, it won't be up to my 12 year old to have the final say I'm afraid.

If all of your 12 year old child’s friends are heading off to one school and your preference is for another school then your going to have to have a lot of very good arguments to put forward. Nothing is as important as your interpersonal relationships when your 12, for boys and girls.

One eyed Jack

splinter65 wrote: »

If all of your 12 year old child’s friends are heading off to one school and your preference is for another school then your going to have to have a lot of very good arguments to put forward. Nothing is as important as your interpersonal relationships when your 12, for boys and girls.

Yep, this was my experience too when deciding which school to send our child to. That’s why this post was a bit of a head-scratcher -

work wrote: »

mixed like the real world. Respect is developed by being together

The “real world” isn’t all that mixed at all - men still generally mix with other men, and women still generally mix with other women, and everyone still generally has respect for each other, they just prefer to associate with people of their own sex.

mirrorwall14

I’m a product of an all girls catholic school primary and secondary. I got an excellent leaving cert. I had terrible social skills around boys. First year in college was incredibly difficult for me. I hope to have mixed education for mine at second level

wench

Check out the range of subjects the schools offer.
Some single sex schools don't offer the stereotypical subjects of the opposite sex, eg no home ec in boys school, no tech drawing in the girls

meeeeh

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The “real world” isn’t all that mixed at all - men still generally mix with other men, and women still generally mix with other women, and everyone still generally has respect for each other, they just prefer to associate with people of their own sex.

I went to a mixed primary and secondary school and my group of friends was always very mixed. Just because that's your experience it is not necessarily everyone's experience.

My kids are in mixed primary, they both have friends of both genders, I don't see why that should change in secondary school.

One eyed Jack

meeeeh wrote: »

I went to a mixed primary and secondary school and my group of friends was always very mixed. Just because that's your experience it is not necessarily everyone's experience.

My kids are in mixed primary, they both have friends of both genders, I don't see why that should change in secondary school.

I didn’t claim it was just my experience though? It’s based upon observation. My own experience of having attended mixed primary and single sex secondary had no bearing on who I mix with as an adult, nor did it mean I had any less respect for women. This is exactly why I suggested to the OP in my very first post in this thread that where they send their own child will depend much more on their own values and their own experiences than anyone else telling them one school is better than another based upon criteria that are important to that individual.

cruizer101

judeboy101 wrote: »

Statistically girls do better academically in single sex.

True and boys do better in mixed.
But remember the most important learning you do growing up is not academic its all the other stuff.
Personally I think mixed is better in general but I wouldn't get too hung up on it either, both types produce plenty of genius plenty of idiots and plenty of well rounded normal people.

TheValeyard

Mixed education like mixed work places in life. Creates more socially aware students and able to communicate and understand other genders and sexualities easier. Particularly at second level.


Also, avoid the scare mongering about enrollment for second level at aged seven. Unless it's a private fee paying school you will not be expected to enroll at that age. Most schools now, with department changes, will not even consider putting a name of a child down unless they are current 6th class students. Then it will be based on criteria such as feeder primary schools, zoning in locality for schools, etc.

lazygal

All other things being equal I would choose a mixed school.
But they aren't all equal so while my husband and I have our children's names down for a local mixed secondary school we're not going to rule out all other schools in the area. I would avoid several based on poor reports from other parents who've moved children. I don't like my old secondary convent school but if my daughter wanted to go there I'd probably send her and see how she gets on. The boys school my brother attended has an excellent reputation and I can see that it's obsession with rules and order would suit our middle child down to the ground. Either way I don't think one form of school is 'better' overall.

GrumPy

Mixed. Prepare them for reality. I can't understand single sex schools. I went to a single sex primary, mixed secondary, but the last 2 years switched to a single sex secondary for leaving cert. I was a hormonal mess of a creature.

Victor

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The “real world” isn’t all that mixed at all

And why is this?

People coming from the continent are surprised at the level of separation is social groups here.

meeeeh

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I didn’t claim it was just my experience though? It’s based upon observation.

Its your observation in a country with a lot of single sex schools.

My brother went to school with predominately boys (it wasn't single sex) and I went to very mixed school. My group of friends would be a lot more mixed, so would be groups of other people who went to more mixed high schools or university courses.

Anyway my personal preference for mixed schools is firstly because it's the only system I know and also because it means a lot more rounded experience. For example girls in my school were a lot less likely to wear make up than girls in predominately girl schools. I went to very good high school so every school might not be the same but there were very few instances of bullying. However if I had a choice between decent single sex school and rubbish mixed I would choose singe sex.

huskerdu

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Also, avoid the scare mongering about enrollment for second level at aged seven. Unless it's a private fee paying school you will not be expected to enroll at that age. Most schools now, with department changes, will not even consider putting a name of a child down unless they are current 6th class students. Then it will be based on criteria such as feeder primary schools, zoning in locality for schools, etc.

I'm afraid this is not true. Where I live, all the local secondary schools ( Ordinary , non-fee paying) have a closing date for entries in 4th class and offer places by Christmas in 5th class.

Its best to check the actual schools for something as important as this,

TheValeyard

huskerdu wrote: »

I'm afraid this is not true. Where I live, all the local secondary schools ( Ordinary , non-fee paying) have a closing date for entries in 4th class and offer places by Christmas in 5th class.

Its best to check the actual schools for something as important as this,

Well you're local school is risking a slap from the department of Education and a court case as policies have most definitely changed in regards to enrollment and the lottery system. What school is it, ETB, CC, Community, CBS, etc?

huskerdu

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Well you're local school is risking a slap from the department of Education and a court case as policies have most definitely changed in regards to enrollment and the lottery system. What school is it, ETB, CC, Community, CBS, etc?

No, they do only offer places based on the published enrollment policies around catchment area etc. , just a bit earlier than you say.

I know this is changing, but I haven't seen any official announcement that is has already changed.

As I said, the OP should ask the school.

FionnB

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Well you're local school is risking a slap from the department of Education and a court case as policies have most definitely changed in regards to enrollment and the lottery system. What school is it, ETB, CC, Community, CBS, etc?

They have not changed - it has been said that policies will have to change, but they have not changed yet. All our local schools have different policies from each other, but for some you need to have names down from a very young age to have any chance of getting in.

Grab All Association

In mixed schools there tends to be what you could almost describe as grooming by guys 18 in 6th year of 12-13 year old first year girls.

Toots

huskerdu wrote: »

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Also, avoid the scare mongering about enrollment for second level at aged seven. Unless it's a private fee paying school you will not be expected to enroll at that age. Most schools now, with department changes, will not even consider putting a name of a child down unless they are current 6th class students. Then it will be based on criteria such as feeder primary schools, zoning in locality for schools, etc.

I'm afraid this is not true. Where I live, all the local secondary schools ( Ordinary , non-fee paying) have a closing date for entries in 4th class and offer places by Christmas in 5th class.

Its best to check the actual schools for something as important as this,

Yes, unfortunately that seems to be the case where I live, as well. We had a meeting at the school and the principal was advising people to start putting names down now. I’ve already phoned a few schools and most of them have at least 50 names down for the year my son is due to start. While the “closing date” is the start of 6th class for some of them, if they’re already full, you’d have no chance if you left it til 5th class to put their name down.

In my area, there are a couple of mixed non fee paying schools, but unfortunately they aren’t somewhere I’d be considering sending the kids, both have a lot of problems with anti social behaviour and one is so bad that for a time the local bus wouldn’t allow their students on because they’d vandalised it so much.

Just to complicate matters, it’s fairly likely we will be moving county in the next couple of years, so we’ll be going to an area where I know nothing about the schools. Are the league tables a good benchmark as to whether or not a school is any good?

AndrewJRenko

Grab All Association wrote: »

In mixed schools there tends to be what you could almost describe as grooming by guys 18 in 6th year of 12-13 year old first year girls.

This is nonsense.

If you see this happening in any school, you should report it to the Designated Liaison Person who will investigate and involve Tusla and Gardai if required.

To suggest that this is a generalised issue is nonsense.

bee06

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I’m a product of an all girls catholic school primary and secondary. I got an excellent leaving cert. I had terrible social skills around boys. First year in college was incredibly difficult for me. I hope to have mixed education for mine at second level

This would have been my experience as well.

Both my sisters went to the same school and had to do applied maths elsewhere because it wasn’t a subject that was offered. There would have been other “traditionally male” subjects that one of my sisters would have liked to do but couldn’t because they weren’t on offer at our school.

TheValeyard

FionnB wrote: »

They have not changed - it has been said that policies will have to change, but they have not changed yet. All our local schools have different policies from each other, but for some you need to have names down from a very young age to have any chance of getting in.

Hmmm. Id definitely check it out. Sounds what the principals are doing is chancing their arms. Could be an issue that they are currently oversubscribed in the area. I know of many schools that are charging a registration fee to prevent parents from putting their childs names on multiple enrollment forms for all the schools in that area.

ShaShaBear

As there were no mixed primary schools in our town, I attended a Catholic convent all-girls school from age 7 until 12 (we had a Juniors school that was mixed). I found that when I eventually got to the mixed secondary school, I had absolutely no idea how to conduct myself around boys, or even men for that matter. Female friends of mine who came from a mixed primary school had no issues making friends with both genders and were far more socially-experienced and calm. Despite receiving a very open, honest and informative sex education from my parents, I was a total numpty around boys, and didn't learn how to conduct myself around them socially in a non-sexual way until I was in my mid-20s in college. It was also blatantly obvious what boys came from mixed primary schools, as they were far more respectful of women, and by far the easier ones to talk to.

I've just enrolled my daughter in the only mixed primary school in town - I feel it's very important for her to learn how to socially mix with all genders (as well as races and later sexualities) and I would like for her to have a mix of male and female friends when she hits secondary age.

Nothing in my academic life was more distracting than hitting puberty and sitting in a classroom with 20-30 attractive boys my age that I'd not been in such close proximity to since I was 6 :rolleyes:

TheValeyard

huskerdu wrote: »

As I said, the OP should ask the school.

Definitely ask the school, but also parents have the right to appeal, especially if your child is refused a place when you live in the locality and a child who lives further away and has another school nearby was given a place.

Nearly all schools will be lottery system within three years. (once local students have been placed)

One eyed Jack

Victor wrote: »

And why is this?

People coming from the continent are surprised at the level of separation is social groups here.

People gravitate towards people they have things in common with is all. I don’t know that people coming from the continent actually are all that surprised at the level of separation in social groups here as though it’s any different in their own countries, it’s pretty much the same, but it stands to reason that the people you interact with would have similar opinions to your own - precisely because people gravitate towards people they have things in common with.

Take for example the fact that primary school teaching is dominated by women, in fact the teacher training college not a stones throw from me, the student population is 75% women, and this is reflected in the professional environment too where teaching is dominated by women. Other professions are dominated by men. That is the real world, in spite of some people’s idealistic notions about gender equality and all the rest of it.

I haven’t even gotten into gender segregation in sports at an international level, that’s probably a subject best left to AH