Motorway lighting removal

tnegun

Off topic but anyone know why the lights on the slips at junctions 5,6 and 7 have been switched off for the last 6 months or more? The junctions themselves are lit just the slips to and from the M4 are permanently off.

jmkennedyie

tnegun wrote: »

Off topic but anyone know why the lights on the slips at junctions 5,6 and 7 have been switched off for the last 6 months or more? The junctions themselves are lit just the slips to and from the M4 are permanently off.

Part of national initiative to turn off/remove lighting from motorway slip roads. Some posts elsewhere about it. There was a pilot study. No safety impact...modern vehicles have better lights. Reduced costs. Removing lampposts possibly improving safety.

veryangryman

tnegun wrote: »

Off topic but anyone know why the lights on the slips at junctions 5,6 and 7 have been switched off for the last 6 months or more? The junctions themselves are lit just the slips to and from the M4 are permanently off.

The greens. Ugh. Switching off junction lights should have been opposed. Terrible shockingly dark and dangerous at them now

marno21

veryangryman wrote: »

The greens. Ugh. Switching off junction lights should have been opposed. Terrible shockingly dark and dangerous at them now

The lights that were removed were removed after an evidence based policy was brought in that showed that the amount of lighting that had been installed was excessive and the majority of the lighting provided no additional safety benefits. Mainline lighting in particular.

roadmaster

marno21 wrote: »

The lights that were removed were removed after an evidence based policy was brought in that showed that the amount of lighting that had been installed was excessive and the majority of the lighting provided no additional safety benefits. Mainline lighting in particular.

A lot of people around the rochfortbridge section of the M6 are complaining thats its too dangerous. I believe the local TD's are trying to get TII to turn the lights back on. I will try and dig out the articles

pad199207

Same thing on the N7 at Citywest

Dravokivich

marno21 wrote: »

The lights that were removed were removed after an evidence based policy was brought in that showed that the amount of lighting that had been installed was excessive and the majority of the lighting provided no additional safety benefits. Mainline lighting in particular.

Not every junction is the same. I'd hate to think I'm going up one in the middle of the night, unfamiliar to me, and not able to see clearly what's the road layout.

Seth Brundle

Dravokivich wrote: »

Not every junction is the same. I'd hate to think I'm going up one in the middle of the night, unfamiliar to me, and not able to see clearly what's the road layout.

Erm, then slow down?

Dravokivich

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Erm, then slow down?

I'm not one to throw myself into the abyss thanks. But the abyss shouldn't be there in the first place. Those junctions at motorways should be well lit.

Seth Brundle

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'm not one to throw myself into the abyss thanks. But the abyss shouldn't be there in the first place. Those junctions at motorways should be well lit.

Given that most of the motorway network is unlit and most of our national primary, secondary, tertiary and other roads are unlit, how do you manage to get to these junctions in the dark?

Dravokivich

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'm not one to throw myself into the abyss thanks. But the abyss shouldn't be there in the first place. Those junctions at motorways should be well lit.

Not at all, drive an appropriate speed for the conditions.

Personally I find lit junctions plays havoc with night vision when driving at night. For all its faults, this is one thing that they did right at Rathmorrisey

_Kaiser_

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not at all, drive an appropriate speed for the conditions.

Personally I find lit junctions plays havoc with night vision when driving at night. For all its faults, this is one thing that they did right at Rathmorrisey

Completely disagree.. Especially at busy junctions.

This is a topic in itself so I won't go too much into it but it's absolute nonsense to have no lighting on motorway exit/slip lanes given that each one varies hugely in length, with or without bends and to claim it's making no difference to safety is ridiculous as is the idea of lights ruining night vision (how do these people manage in towns at night?) - it's a cost saving exercise pure and simple.

SeanW

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Erm, then slow down?

Motorways are supposed to be designed for constant, cruising speeds. You should not have to slow down simply because the authorities are cheap with the lights.

Seth Brundle

SeanW wrote: »

Motorways are supposed to be designed for constant, cruising speeds. You should not have to slow down simply because the authorities are cheap with the lights.

We're talking about motorway junctions where you do need to slow down!

MayoSalmon

Deleted User wrote: »

Not at all, drive an appropriate speed for the conditions.

Personally I find lit junctions plays havoc with night vision when driving at night. For all its faults, this is one thing that they did right at Rathmorrisey

The reason the vast majority of road is unlit is due to cost not due to the lack of perceived safety value lightening brings.

You would of thought that would be very self evident.

Dravokivich

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Given that most of the motorway network is unlit and most of our national primary, secondary, tertiary and other roads are unlit, how do you manage to get to these junctions in the dark?

So poor conditions on other roads, means we should bring it down to the lowest common denominator overall? We aren't trying to add fractions. And I for one feel visibility needs to be reviewed throughout the road network and accept it doesn't all need lighting.

But we are talking about filtering people on and off roads designed to have a high throughput of vehicles.

Deleted User wrote: »

Not at all, drive an appropriate speed for the conditions.

Personally I find lit junctions plays havoc with night vision when driving at night. For all its faults, this is one thing that they did right at Rathmorrisey

Why do you expect I don't?

Dravokivich

Dravokivich wrote: »

Why do you expect I don't?

You are the one describing darkness as the abyss

Maybe nighttime driving just isn't for you, and that's ok too

Seth Brundle

Dravokivich wrote: »

So poor conditions on other roads, means we should bring it down to the lowest common denominator overall? We aren't trying to add fractions. And I for one feel visibility needs to be reviewed throughout the road network and accept it doesn't all need lighting.

I've no problem seeing on the slip roads. My car has the correct headlamp bulbs and correct beam alignment.
If you cannot see ahead in the dark then I reckon the issue is with wither you or your car.

Dravokivich wrote: »

Why do you expect I don't?

...because you appear to have duifficulty driving in the darkness based on what you've told us. If you cannot see the road ahead then you need to amend your driving style as DaCor mentioned.

_Kaiser_

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I've no problem seeing on the slip roads. My car has the correct headlamp bulbs and correct beam alignment.
If you cannot see ahead in the dark then I reckon the issue is with wither you or your car.


...because you appear to have duifficulty driving in the darkness based on what you've told us. If you cannot see the road ahead then you need to amend your driving style as DaCor mentioned.

You're missing the point entirely.

Having junctions lit allows drivers (especially those unfamiliar with the junction) to properly judge distance, prepare to exit in good time, and do so safely with a minimum of impact to traffic NOT exiting. This is even more important where that traffic is fast moving and relatively heavy.

As I and others have said, this was a cost-saving measure - nothing more, and certainly nothing to do with improving "safety"... quite the opposite!

Dravokivich

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You are the one describing darkness as the abyss

Maybe nighttime driving just isn't for you, and that's ok too

It has nothing to do with darkness. That likeness was because challenging the idea of turning out the lights, seems to mean I don't adjust for, nor take into consideration what's happening around me.

bluetractor

Here's a good overview of the project.
https://www.tii.ie/news/press-releases/Motorway-junction-lighting/Technical-Information-Note-Energy-Reduction-for-TII-WEbsite.docx.pdf

As for those saying "its dangerous" including local politicians who will jump on any and every bandwagon possible with local elections coming up, can they show the statistics of how they are more dangerous? EG. Numbers of additional accidents at those junctions in the hours of darkness?

Funny, some of the same politicians were campaigning for all of the lights to be turned off after midnight just a couple of months before the 2014 local elections.

Here's the most telling piece of that document

As part of its safety research, TII has looked at the performance of the two junction types (Pre-2007 and Post-2007 Design Type Lighting Footprint) over the past approximately 10 years of operation. A study of accident rates, using An Garda Síochána sourced data, by independent consulting engineers concluded that the lighting of the mainline at motorway/dual carriageway junctions does not measurably improve operational road safety when compared with those junctions where the mainline is unlit. Analysis of additional data sources for RTC’s in the vicinity of motorway junctions in the period 2014 to date has reached a similar conclusion.

This outcome is not surprising as this evidence is generally consistent with that which informed the change in UK standards in 2006 to a layout which omitted mainline lighting.

Research has also shown additional safety benefits, such as drivers remaining on the mainline not experiencing the need for their eyes to adjust to the light and then, more importantly, re-adjust for the loss of light i.e. dark adaptation.

_Kaiser_

So, TII document validates a TII decision to turn off lighting.. surprise! I doubt these AGS source reports include any near-misses or unreported last-minute lane-diving for the exit etc.

The reference to drivers having to readjust to the dark is nonsense - how do these people cope with oncoming traffic in general at night, or the increasing trend of idiots not dipping their lights on motorways?

When the ultimate aim is to reduce cost, it's very easy to massage the stats (that very few if any will cross-check .. and that's without question AGS validity on the subject *cough* drink-driving tests *cough*) to fit the narrative.

bluetractor

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

So, TII document validates a TII decision to turn off lighting.. surprise! I doubt these AGS source reports include any near-misses or unreported last-minute lane-diving for the exit etc.

The reference to drivers having to readjust to the dark is nonsense - how do these people cope with oncoming traffic in general at night, or the increasing trend of idiots not dipping their lights on motorways?

When the ultimate aim is to reduce cost, it's very easy to massage the stats (that very few if any will cross-check .. and that's without question AGS validity on the subject *cough* drink-driving tests *cough*) to fit the narrative.

I don't think it is a TII decision. Irish standards followed UK standards for years. In 2010 the UK started to tun off many lights after midnight and at all times on the approaches to junctions on some of the primary motorways including M1 & M4. The M25 light have been left on as the 24 hour traffic level warrants it.
In 2016 a report was published that stated there was no increase in accidents as a result of these light changes. And it seems that TII only started their campaign after that report showed that over a 5 year period in the UK there were cost savings, carbon emission savings and no increase in accidents.

The exception is belgium where the entire motorway is lit up. But whilst they have 50% more motorway km that we do and over twice our population, they have a dreadful record of motorway accidents with over 150 motorway deaths every year. Here in 2017 there were two motorway deaths.

HonalD

The objective is to reduce costs. The cost of the provision of energy to and maintenance of motorway lighting has been examined and is being reduced.

monument

Given the low likelihood of a major collision on a motorway, is a year's worth of monitoring really worth much?

veryangryman

monument wrote: »

Given the low likelihood of a major collision on a motorway, is a year's worth of monitoring really worth much?

If the lights were pointless then why bother installing them

bluetractor

HonalD wrote: »

The objective is to reduce costs. The cost of the provision of energy to and maintenance of motorway lighting has been examined and is being reduced.

Of course it is. Just like many decisions.
But no use wasting electricity and wasting taxpayers money on areas it is now proven not to make sense. And if it can also add to saving carbon emissions, then better still.
I work with a company that has a overall rates bill in excess of 500k and they get a statement of council expenditure every year. Lighting costs, even though its at a low night rate (or to be a specific, a special public lighting rate) is a huge cost to the commercial ratepayers and property tax payers in each county.

Carawaystick

No lights have been removed, only not lit.

Every car needs to have lights, people need to drive at a speed suitable to the conditions
the junctions at the end of the slip lanes are lit, just not the slip lanes or mainline.

The service station at Enfield has full lighting still turned on, its very bright and distracting, compared to all the other junctions from Lucan to Athlone.

AugustusMinimus

I’ve noticed recently that there are no cats eyes on the Bandon and Sarsfields Road flyovers in Cork.

Is this also a new standard for HQDC being built in Ireland? All significant roads should have cats eyes.

I have noticed recently that in general cats eyes are a lot duller than in years gone by.

lawred2

veryangryman wrote: »

The greens. Ugh. Switching off junction lights should have been opposed. Terrible shockingly dark and dangerous at them now

How do you manage on every other road in Ireland?

veryangryman

lawred2 wrote: »

How do you manage on every other road in Ireland?

Lower speed limits, less traffic generally. The junctions on regular roads are generally left/right turns where you may have to stop altogether depending on traffic other side of road. So in general your just going slower on them anyway.

Again i have to ask why put the fricking lights on Motorways in the first place if they didnt provide a useful purpose? As many have said, its a penny pinching exercise. And a petty one at that.

Cookiemunster

veryangryman wrote: »

Lower speed limits, less traffic generally. The junctions on regular roads are generally left/right turns where you may have to stop altogether depending on traffic other side of road. So in general your just going slower on them anyway.

Again i have to ask why put the fricking lights on Motorways in the first place if they didnt provide a useful purpose? As many have said, its a penny pinching exercise. And a petty one at that.

So stopping on an unlit 100km road and possibly crossing oncoming traffic in the dark is OK, but continuing along or exiting an unlit motorway with no oncoming traffic is dangerous? Really?

Del2005

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Having junctions lit allows drivers (especially those unfamiliar with the junction) to properly judge distance, prepare to exit in good time, and do so safely with a minimum of impact to traffic NOT exiting. This is even more important where that traffic is fast moving and relatively heavy.

Every motorway junction has several massive signs for several km before so there is no need to light the junction up to alert motorists to what is off the junction. If drivers are not getting into lane in good time it's the driver not paying attention and nothing to do with lighting, just look at late lane changes during day light to see that no matter how many signs or brightly lit the junction is people don't pay attention.

cantalach

From today's Times in the UK. It's behind a paywall but the gist is clear from the paragraphs that can be read. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/more-drivers-die-on-motorways-with-street-lights-switched-off-v9tg37srm

ongarboy

cantalach wrote: »

From today's Times in the UK. It's behind a paywall but the gist is clear from the paragraphs that can be read. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/more-drivers-die-on-motorways-with-street-lights-switched-off-v9tg37srm

That is worrying to read alright. I think all junctions where merging takes place should always be lit if it has been proven as this upward fatality trend shows that unlit junctions are more dangerous.