Cheltenham Day 4 - Friday 14 March

Andrew00

Andrew00 wrote: »

Have a massive bet on Cuban Hope in the last at Dundalk at 9/4.

Been a bad week for me hoping this eases the pain

Nice old coup landed

tipptom

Andrew00 wrote: »

Have a massive bet on Cuban Hope in the last at Dundalk at 9/4.

Been a bad week for me hoping this eases the pain

Well done,nice drift.
Halfords went in hard for theirs

piplip87

Delighted for Mullins regardless of all his success the past few years he has been robbed of 3 superstars. Douvan and Faugheen both ruined by injury both would have been multiple championship race champions. I still fancy a pre injury Douvan to beat Altior by 4 or 5 lengths.

The Vautor Jesus what a horse.

Hopefully some of the novices that didn't get a run this year due to the ground will come.on next season.

If we have a wet summer do you think some of them will get an early start ?

slimshady007

I don't think Ricci had any winners at this festival? Long time since that happened. Seems like Mullins' best novices are running in different silks too - is Ricci not pumping as much money in now or was he just exceptionally lucky to get so many top horses all at the same time?

Conas

piplip87 wrote: »

Delighted for Mullins regardless of all his success the past few years he has been robbed of 3 superstars. Douvan and Faugheen both ruined by injury both would have been multiple championship race champions. I still fancy a pre injury Douvan to beat Altior by 4 or 5 lengths.

The Vautor Jesus what a horse.

Hopefully some of the novices that didn't get a run this year due to the ground will come.on next season.

If we have a wet summer do you think some of them will get an early start ?

You might be alone in that assumption, as Douvan didn't have to beat very much in 2015 and 2016. Sizing John wasn't running at his strongest distance of 3 miles. The results flattered Douvan. He then blew up in the Champion Chase when he faced his strongest field to date by jumping poorly, then jumped poorly last year and fell.

Vautour was a great novice, but was found out when he didn't stay the distance in the King George of 2015, and was barely beaten by a temperamental Cue Card on the line. Still think he should have went for the Gold Cup in 2016, but Mullins and Ricci chose a handy Ryanair instead, hence the reason Vautour committed suicide in the field that summer

tipptom

Highlights for me was City Island who covered the rest of the weeks loses(posted him up)

Lows:Bennie de deux falling at the last and Kemboy being rushed to the first after missing the break.

Sir Ereks demise was shocking and takes me back to Our Conor

Its not the girls fault but the BS around Bryony Frost is completely out of control and patronising and good to see Rachael Blackmore just getting on with being a top rider with a positional sense that is second to none at the moment.

I think Ruby Walsh and Barry Geraghty will be gone after the big meetings is finished this year,an end of an era

Chesty08

Conas wrote: »

You might be alone in that assumption, as Douvan didn't have to beat very much in 2015 and 2016. Sizing John wasn't running at his strongest distance of 3 miles. The results flattered Douvan. He then blew up in the Champion Chase when he faced his strongest field to date by jumping poorly, then jumped poorly last year and fell.

Vautour was a great novice, but was found out when he didn't stay the distance in the King George of 2015, and was barely beaten by a temperamental Cue Card on the line. Still think he should have went for the Gold Cup in 2016, but Mullins and Ricci chose a handy Ryanair instead, hence the reason Vautour committed suicide in the field that summer

I’d agree with him. Douvan was better than Altior

Chesty08

tipptom wrote: »

Highlights for me was City Island who covered the rest of the weeks loses(posted him up)

Lows:Bennie de deux falling at the last and Kemboy being rushed to the first after missing the break.

Sir Ereks demise was shocking and takes me back to Our Conor

Its not the girls fault but the BS around Bryony Frost is completely out of control and patronising and good to see Rachael Blackmore just getting on with being a top rider with a positional sense that is second to none at the moment.

I think Ruby Walsh and Barry Geraghty will be gone after the big meetings is finished this year,an end of an era

Totally agree on Byrony... the asking Lizzie Kelly (who won the next race) about how Byrony was after her win was the worst I’ve ever seen. I’d of completely blanked to answer. Complete disrespect to Lizzie.

Outlaw Pete

spurshero wrote: »

Lads I backed over 108 lengths winning distance for the meeting . It ended up at 108.5 . Is this a winner ??

Of course 108.5 counts as Over 108.

Jammy sod by the way.

Conas

Chesty08 wrote: »

I’d agree with him. Douvan was better than Altior

He was never able to prove it unfortunately.

Douvan only won one Grade 1 outside of the Novice division, and that was the Paddy Power Chase in Christmas 2016, against Sizing John, Simply Ned, Black Hercules, were they all top class two miles chasers?

He did thrash horses like Days Hotel, the Game Changer, Velvet Maker, and Rogue Trader, but how could beating horses of such poor caliber make him better than Altior? who has won 18 races on the trot, beating much better horses like Buveur D'air, Min, Un de sceaux, Special Tiara, Politologue, and even Douvan himself. Matching Big Bucks's record, and is now a back to back Champion Chase winner. Altior has won six Grade 1's outside of the novice division, compared to Douvan's one. It's a fairly bold statement to say he's a better horse than Altior in fairness.

spurshero

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Of course 108.5 counts as Over 108.

Jammy sod by the way.

Never backed distances before . Wasn’t sure if I needed 109 for it to be winner

Outlaw Pete

spurshero wrote: »

Never backed distances before . Wasn’t sure if I needed 109 for it to be winner

Understandably, was just calling you jammy as after 4 days of races your bet came up by just half a length.... that's close for one race, never mind almost 30 of them combined

The first day was good to you with 52.5.... you just about got across the line with today's 15.75.

Hope you got a nice payout. Not many ahead this year.

piplip87

Conas wrote: »

He was never able to prove it unfortunately.

Douvan only won one Grade 1 outside of the Novice division, and that was the Paddy Power Chase in Christmas 2016, against Sizing John, Simply Ned, Black Hercules, were they all top class two miles chasers?

He did thrash horses like Days Hotel, the Game Changer, Velvet Maker, and Rogue Trader, but how could beating horses of such poor caliber make him better than Altior? who has won 18 races on the trot, beating much better horses like Buveur D'air, Min, Un de sceaux, Special Tiara, Politologue, and even Douvan himself. Matching Big Bucks's record, and is now a back to back Champion Chase winner. Altior has won six Grade 1's outside of the novice division, compared to Douvan's one. It's a fairly bold statement to say he's a better horse than Altior in fairness.

Altior is a beast it's just one big race we where robbed off a pre injury Douvan VS Altior would have been one for the ages. Even before the fall last season it was shaping up like a cracker. Maybe we will see it next season over 3 Miles. I can't think of another match up that would have come close. Maybe Enable Vs Minding on the flat would have but another one injury robbed us off.

Faugheen VS BDA again pre injury the machine would trounce him.

Angliru

Yeah that remark over Vautour is a poor nasty comment

spurshero

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Understandably, was just calling you jammy as after 4 days of races your bet came up by just half a length.... that's close for one race, never mind almost 30 of them combined

The first day was good to you with 52.5.... you just about got across the line with today's 15.75.

Hope you got a nice payout. Not many ahead this year.

Put me a small quid up for the meeting . Good way of getting an inerrst over the 4 days relatively cheaply rather then punting on all races which is what the bookies want

The Tetrarch

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Gavin "shels"

Gavin shels wrote: »

1:30 Sir Erec 1/1
2:10 Crooks Peek 10/1 e/w
2:50 Dinions 12/1 ew
3:30 Clan Des Obeaux 4/1
4.10 (nothing yet)
4:50 Le Prezien 12/1 ew
5:30 Early Doors 4/1

A bad end of the week with Early Doors saving the day to break even...

Gutted about Sir Eric and also Invitation Only.

WicklowBrave

I agree with Conas. The faux devestation gets on my nerves . The cognitive dissonance from people is something else. Everyone in racing accepts that what happened to Sir Erec can happen any time a horse jumps an obstacle so when it does happen there is absolutely no point in crying about it. If we can’t come to terms with that then it is time to bin the sport.

Scott Tenorman

WicklowBrave wrote: »

I agree with Conas. The faux devestation gets on my nerves . The cognitive dissonance from people is something else. Everyone in racing accepts that what happened to Sir Erec can happen any time a horse jumps an obstacle so when it does happen there is absolutely no point in crying about it. If we can’t come to terms with that then it is time to bin the sport.

I agree and the proof is that there were no tears for the other horses who died during the week. Were they not worthy of the same concern?

WicklowBrave

Scott Tenorman wrote: »

I agree and the proof is that there were no tears for the other horses who died during the week. Were they not worthy of the same concern?

Exactly. I understand Sir Erec was a very promising horse and he had behaved so well while being reshod only minutes previously but I've been surprised by over the top reaction to it by people on here and elsewhere. People are mainly upset only because he was any good. Was interesting when ITV were interviewing Mullins after the Gold Cup and they mentioned Invitation Only, I would doubt Mullins was that affected by his death at all. He has been around horses his entire life, he's knows a live horse is never too far away from becoming a dead horse, if he had to mourn for every horse he dealt with, he wouldn't last very long as a trainer.

Itziger

One minute now folks, I think people are going the other direction now in the reaction to Sir Erec's demise. It's only human nature to be more concerned for an animal that is top of the tree than a relatively unknown horse.

I was very sorry to see the fella's injury. But part of that was the fact that we are now never going to see how good he could have been. Similar to Our Connor, lesser extent Vautour who'd done a lot already but who almost everyone on here would have loved to see for another season or two.

So it's not as if I'm going around the house sobbing into a mug of tea about the young horse's death but I think it's a bloody shame. And am I less affected by the death of 'lesser' horse? Heck, yeah. That's not double-standards, that's completely normal.

WicklowBrave

Itziger wrote: »

One minute now folks, I think people are going the other direction now in the reaction to Sir Erec's demise. It's only human nature to be more concerned for an animal that is top of the tree than a relatively unknown horse.

I was very sorry to see the fella's injury. But part of that was the fact that we are now never going to see how good he could have been. Similar to Our Connor, lesser extent Vautour who'd done a lot already but who almost everyone on here would have loved to see for another season or two.

So it's not as if I'm going around the house sobbing into a mug of tea about the young horse's death but I think it's a bloody shame. And am I less affected by the death of 'lesser' horse? Heck, yeah. That's not double-standards, that's completely normal.

No, you are spot on. I was gutted when Vautour died but it was more from a selfish point of view that I'd never get to see the horse race again. I was sad for the horse aswell but I wouldn't have cared if it was a 120 handicapper.

It's just something I've noticed on ITV aswell with how they react to horses deaths, especially Ed Chamberlin. He seems so insecure about it. What happened to Sir Erec was awful but I support National Hunt racing and therefore, I am comfortable knowing that in order for the sport to survive and prosper that every now and again, a horse will suffer a horrible injury and lose its life. If people aren't comfortable with that they should consider why they support the game.

charolais0153

When you see a horse's leg get broken in front of you,its fairly devestating.
I had no money on sir erec either

Panrich

I still lament Golden Cygnets demise but I agree that it’s for selfish reasons of missing out on seeing what might have came from him and the likes if Gloria Victus, Our Conor etc. Friday was the same. The fact that he was an entire as well who could have potentially had a second career if he kept progressing was unfortunate but maybe the incident prevented him from passing on a weakness.

Scott Tenorman

I don’t think anyone denies that what happened to Sir Erec is very tough to see but virtue signaling about how upset you are while at the same time not seeming to care about other horses suffering the same fate (one of whom had a live chance in the blue riband chase of the year) just comes across as being false TBH

Joe_ Public

It’s just human nature. Same as when there is a widespread emotional outpouring for a promising young footballer (as with the tragic death of the player on his way to Cardiff recently), yet there isn’t the same reaction when it’s a lower league or non league footballer.

I’m not comparing people and horses btw, just the principle is something similar.

By and large horse racing people love and care for their animals and feel the loss deeply when they get killed doing what they were born to do. But they are practical people too and they quickly move on.

Of course racing people prefer not to talk about the fate of thousands of horses who prove to be useless and end up going to be slaughtered (legally, it must be said.) But by and large horses have it pretty good compared to millions of their four legged brethren who are bred for slaughter, in many cases mere weeks after taking their first breaths.

The Tetrarch

The Tetrarch wrote: »

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handsfree2

Conas wrote: »

There's nothing shocking about my comment. Horse's are unqiue and wonderful alright, but in truth they are being exploited over fences and hurdles for greed and your entertainment under dangerous circumstances. So I know fellas like yourself and others will come on here with this 'holier than thou' rant about your love of horses and their welfare etc. If you truly cared about horses like Sir Erec and their welfare you'd ban national hunt racing wouldn't you? He and many others would still be alive today.

I kind of agree with you on the faux devastation, but banning racing? That's just a load of nonsense.

The Tetrarch

handsfree2 wrote: »

I kind of agree with you on the faux devastation, but banning racing? That's just a load of nonsense.

Ban racing, then no need for horses, nobody will pay to keep them, shoot them all, and the protesters are happy.

Conas

handsfree2 wrote: »

I kind of agree with you on the faux devastation, but banning racing? That's just a load of nonsense.

I wasn't advocating for the banning of jumps racing myself personally. I was saying that if people are truly heartbroken, and devastated over the deaths of horses like Vautour, Sir Erec, Our Conor, and Valiramix, you'd think they'd be advocating for the banning of jumps racing wouldn't you? but no, they still follow and place bets on the sport regardless. It's utter nonsense.
I just loathe the hypocritical stance that a lot of punters take once it comes to national hunt racing.

Fanny Wank

Some people (in particular stable lads/lasses) etc know the risks involved in racing. That doesn't mean they're callous, don't care or are hypocrites

A lot of these horses get great care, for the most part from people on reasonably meagre wages who are in it for their love of the game and of horses.

People who see an incident like happened to that horse on Friday are often upset by it, albeit momentarily. To lament a potential top class horse not being able to fulfill their potential, in particular in such brutal fashion isn't anything wrong IMO. It's utter nonsense to say it's hypocrisy to lament a horse's death and still follow the sport

BumperD

Conas wrote: »

I wasn't advocating for the banning of jumps racing myself personally. I was saying that if people are truly heartbroken, and devastated over the deaths of horses like Vautour, Sir Erec, Our Conor, and Valiramix, you'd think they'd be advocating for the banning of jumps racing wouldn't you? but no, they still follow and place bets on the sport regardless. It's utter nonsense.
I just loathe the hypocritical stance that a lot of punters take once it comes to national hunt racing.

Arton Senna etc got killed driving F1. People who loved Senna and F1 didn’t call for a ban.

People get killed in sport but we don’t call for its ban.

Thankfully, horses are cared for very well . The average cost of living expenses for an adult is about 18k pa, about the same to keep a racehorse annually. While freak accidents that occurred on Friday are a risk in the sport (jockey and horse), you could easily feel troubled by what you witnessed without advocating for a ban. I know the user name is Conas or “why?” But your line on this is off (read WAY OFF for off).

wally79

BumperD wrote: »

Arton Senna etc got killed driving F1. People who loved Senna and F1 didn’t call for a ban.

People get killed in sport but we don’t call for its ban.

Thankfully, horses are cared for very well . The average cost of living expenses for an adult is about 18k pa, about the same to keep a racehorse annually. While freak accidents that occurred on Friday are a risk in the sport (jockey and horse), you could easily feel troubled by what you witnessed without advocating for a ban. I know the user name is Conas or “why?” But your line on this is off (read WAY OFF for off).

I’m not on either side in this but in fairness senna decided to get in the fast car

I don’t know how much of a choice the horses have

BumperD

wally79 wrote: »

I’m not on either side in this but in fairness senna decided to get in the fast car

I don’t know how much of a choice the horses have

Sweet Jesus. You do know the thoroughbred are bred for one purpose, racing. Without it, they would not exist. Think about that for a moment. If left in wild, they will herd and run. That wild environment is as dangerous as the regulated/ caring environment.

Unless your a vegan, your likely compromised up the ying yang on the subject. I think that’s the last reply I’ll make on this. Being an owner involved in racing 20 years I know how well cared these athletes are.

Deadmou5e

BumperD wrote: »

Sweet Jesus. You do know the thoroughbred are bred for one purpose, racing. Without it, they would not exist. Think about that for a moment. If left in wild, they will herd and run. That wild environment is as dangerous as the regulated/ caring environment.

Unless your a vegan, your likely compromised up the ying yang on the subject. I think that’s the last reply I’ll make on this. Being an owner involved in racing 20 years I know how well cared these athletes are.

Exactly. Most if not all of them horses are treated better than a large percentage of people!

wally79

BumperD wrote: »

Sweet Jesus. You do know the thoroughbred are bred for one purpose, racing. Without it, they would not exist. Think about that for a moment. If left in wild, they will herd and run. That wild environment is as dangerous as the regulated/ caring environment.

Unless your a vegan, your likely compromised up the ying yang on the subject. I think that’s the last reply I’ll make on this. Being an owner involved in racing 20 years I know how well cared these athletes are.

My only point was that you compared it to a human choosing to undertake a dangerous activity where a horse doesn’t have the luxury of choice

Odelay

wally79 wrote: »

My only point was that you compared it to a human choosing to undertake a dangerous activity where a horse doesn’t have the luxury of choice

You haven’t a lot of experience with horses I can only assume. Trust me, if a horse doesn’t want to do something it won’t.

wally79

Odelay wrote: »

You haven’t a lot of experience with horses I can only assume. Trust me, if a horse doesn’t want to do something it won’t.

Correct assumption and again I don’t fall strongly on either side of the argument

My only comment was on the Comparison which still makes no sense

You’re Comparing a human choosing a dangerous sport to a horse not doing something you want it to do

Mostly Harmless

Comparing horse racing with F1 is a bit silly to be honest. Loads has been done to make F1 (even) safer since Senna died anyway.

Agree that horses are bred to race and a very small minority of horses will unfortunately always die on the track as a by product of racing and agree that if you cannot accept that fact then you are in the wrong game.

But some of these staying chases in bottomless ground are awful spectacles and if horses are being pushed to the point of collapse there are obvious welfare issues that make it very hard to defend when to people who find it objectionable, if action is not taken to change this then I honestly think jumps racing will be on the way out in 10 years time.

Panrich

Mostly Harmless wrote: »

Comparing horse racing with F1 is a bit silly to be honest. Loads has been done to make F1 (even) safer since Senna died anyway.

Agree that horses are bred to race and a very small minority of horses will unfortunately always die on the track as a by product of racing and agree that if you cannot accept that fact then you are in the wrong game.

But some of these staying chases in bottomless ground are awful spectacles and if horses are being pushed to the point of collapse there are obvious welfare issues that make it very hard to defend when to people who find it objectionable, if action is not taken to change this then I honestly think jumps racing will be on the way out in 10 years time.

It’s always the thin end of the wedge that gets targeted. First the Grand National fences are too stiff. Then the distance is too far. Next up the field size needs reducing. Then we’ll be targeting all long distance races. What about banning racing on firm or heavy going?

There’s no end to the objections and each one will be banked until there’s nothing left to ban. I’m afraid we’re heading for the end of NH at some point and possibly sooner than we reailise.

The Tetrarch

wally79 wrote: »

My only point was that you compared it to a human choosing to undertake a dangerous activity where a horse doesn’t have the luxury of choice

For three hundred years breeders have chosen the best racers and used them to breed the next generation of race horses.
The thoroughbred breed is a hybrid breed, not a wild animal.
It is a mixture from different sources, about 70% native Irish and English breeds (Hobby, Galloway, others) that have been in these islands for thousands of years, and the other 30% from Asia.

They are race horses, bred for the task, suited to the task.
If horses do not race they have no function.

Your stance implies -
that the stallion and mare should be asked do they wish to produce a foal for racing
the foal should be asked if he/she wishes to join the other horses who are training in the morning gallops
the trained horse should they be asked if he/she wants to go to the races and take part in the race.

You are applying a human thought process (choosing to race) to an animal who would not understand the choice.
There are no herds of wild racehorses, now or in earlier centuries.
No horse racing, and you will be destroying hundreds of years of breeding and racing.
For what? Because you saw something on the television.

Mostly Harmless

If people can watch that head on angle of the finish of the 4 miler at Cheltenham and think there is nothing wrong with obviously shattered horses being forced to keep going till they crumple in a heap then good luck to them, I am used to seeing such things and it was a hard watch for me so can only imagine what it looked like to an outsider.

All about mitigating risk for me and if racing is not seen to be taking proactive steps then the game will be up before long. A lot of people seem to have the attitude that this was always the way things were done so why change it etc, that's a very dangerous game to play in my opinion.

Racing needs to be sure of its self in areas where welfare concerns are unfounded (e.g. the whip) but actually do things to reduce the risk of injury to horses where there are legitimate concerns.

wally79

The Tetrarch wrote: »

For three hundred years breeders have chosen the best racers and used them to breed the next generation of race horses.
The thoroughbred breed is a hybrid breed, not a wild animal.
It is a mixture from different sources, about 70% native Irish and English breeds (Hobby, Galloway, others) that have been in these islands for thousands of years, and the other 30% from Asia.

They are race horses, bred for the task, suited to the task.
If horses do not race they have no function.

Your stance implies -
that the stallion and mare should be asked do they wish to produce a foal for racing
the foal should be asked if he/she wishes to join the other horses who are training in the morning gallops
the trained horse should they be asked if he/she wants to go to the races and take part in the race.

You are applying a human thought process (choosing to race) to an animal who would not understand the choice.
There are no herds of wild racehorses, now or in earlier centuries.
No horse racing, and you will be destroying hundreds of years of breeding and racing.
For what? Because you saw something on the television.

I wasn’t applying any thought process

The person who nonsensically compared a horse dying to ayrton senna did that

Unless you are suggesting they are comparable because senna did not have a human thought process and did not understand the choice

Again I’m not arguing the point just the comparison

Joe_ Public

wally79 wrote: »

I wasn’t applying any thought process

The person who nonsensically compared a horse dying to ayrton senna did that

Unless you are suggesting they are comparable because senna did not have a human thought process and did not understand the choice

Again I’m not arguing the point just the comparison

You’re 100% correct fwiw. Other than on a point of principle horses should never be compared to humans on this issue. Never ever.

But the risks to the future of horse racing are being vastly overstated by some. It is a vital contributor to rural economies and far too important to ever see shelved. It’s mostly just optics anyway, like the whip debate, and that can be managed. It’s distressing to see horses die on the track but fact is many many more die on routine exercise outings or even just standing or lying in their box.

Panrich

wally79 wrote: »

I wasn’t applying any thought process

The person who nonsensically compared a horse dying to ayrton senna did that

Unless you are suggesting they are comparable because senna did not have a human thought process and did not understand the choice

Again I’m not arguing the point just the comparison

The original comparison had some merit in that it was via the prism of the spectator. It equated peoples reaction to deaths of horses and the death of Senna and how that may have affected their views of the sport.
You took it from the view of the participant in your reply and I don’t think that was the intended point.

BumperD

Ive reflected further on this. I’ve decided to stop watching sport fishing. I saw a yellow fin tuna a few weeks back, lured onto a trawling baited hook against his will. After fighting for 30 minutes , he eventually gave in exhausted. The captain sold him to a restaurant and he was finished off, ceviche style, the poor lad.

In fact, I’m going to stop eating fish altogether. And meat. And honey, those poor fecking bees working their asses off at the foot of my garden, in my beehive, making me honey. Someone fooled them to that labour. Some get injured collecting that pollen, attacked by birds and die.

I think we should all start giving up everything, agitating against all and sundry, ban everything then we can all update our bookface profiles about how great we are. This is the way forward folks. Outrage tourism here I come wooooohoooooo!

I’m thinking I might go live in the wild. You know, thinking of all that wood in the house, it got chopped down in its prime without consent. Cruel beyond belief. Bastards!

I’m going to stop taking medicine. They test that stuff in animals you know? Caring medical professionals my hole! They are mass murders, doctors, surgeons, nurses, drug manufacturers, the whole lot of them.

I’m offended by all these things. Find them disturbing so I want them addressed.

Slattsy

Someone close this ****ing thread!!

Mostly Harmless

Sensible discussion as ever I see

ON ZEE BRIDLE

I shoot birds at the airport

Andrew00

Agree close this thread now. Load of bull