Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

theguzman

WhiteMan32 wrote: »

The Revoke Article 50 petition has now passed 5 million signatures: -

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

Amazingly 17,410,742 people voted to leave the European Union, a simple petition with millions of non British citizens voting in it will not over-rule the democratic mandate of the Referendum to leave the EU in 2016. It is a really pathetic attempt by the hard-left to derail the democratic process at all costs.

ancapailldorcha

theguzman wrote: »

Amazingly 17,410,742 people voted to leave the European Union, a simple petition with millions of non British citizens voting in it will not over-rule the democratic mandate of the Referendum to leave the EU in 2016. It is a really pathetic attempt by the hard-left to derail the democratic process at all costs.

Can you prove that millions of non-British citizens signed the petition please?

BobbyBobberson

theguzman wrote: »

Amazingly 17,410,742 people voted to leave the European Union, a simple petition with millions of non British citizens voting in it will not over-rule the democratic mandate of the Referendum to leave the EU in 2016. It is a really pathetic attempt by the hard-left to derail the democratic process at all costs.

The hard left? Really?

robinph

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

Just feels utterly pointless, it is not going to change anything.

Why worry about it then? Let those who feel it will have some effect, however minor, carry on with it. Others can carry on repeating brexit means brexit to themselves if need be in an equally meaningless way. The revoke article 50 petition at least has a defined desire, still nobody can agree on what brexit means though.

Inquitus

Seems May has a new plan, have indicative votes, and if the outcome conflicts with the Tory Manifesto, which if they reach a majority conclusion it likely will, then threaten her MP's with a GE and have another go at MV3. Effectively My Deal or a long delay and a GE.

PokeHerKing

ancapailldorcha wrote:

Can you prove that millions of non-British citizens signed the petition please?

Can you prove they're not? The simple fact is that anyone with an Internet connection and an email can vote in it.

robinph

theguzman wrote: »

Amazingly 17,410,742 people voted to leave the European Union, a simple petition with millions of non British citizens voting in it will not over-rule the democratic mandate of the Referendum to leave the EU in 2016. It is a really pathetic attempt by the hard-left to derail the democratic process at all costs.

Millions? There is only 5 million who have signed it and you think that 2million plus of them are not from or resident in the UK? And they have also managed to find 2 million post codes and distributed their use between them all in a way which perfectly matches the vote distribution from the original referendum?

theguzman

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Can you prove that millions of non-British citizens signed the petition please?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2019/03/21/anti-brexit-petition-in-u-k-parliament-can-be-signed-by-anyone-anywhere/

robinph

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Can you prove they're not? The simple fact is that anyone with an Internet connection and an email can vote in it.

The data showing where people have signed up from is available on the petition website, and the post code distribution is shown on a map linked from it.

Point out if you spot anything dubious in that data.

FrancieBrady

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Can you prove they're not? The simple fact is that anyone with an Internet connection and an email can vote in it.

This is true. It would be like trying to say that the majority of the UK wanted the Wolfe Tones to be the Christmas No 1

Inquitus

theguzman wrote: »

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2019/03/21/anti-brexit-petition-in-u-k-parliament-can-be-signed-by-anyone-anywhere/

That proves nothing.

ancapailldorcha

theguzman wrote: »

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2019/03/21/anti-brexit-petition-in-u-k-parliament-can-be-signed-by-anyone-anywhere/

And proof that millions of non-British people DID sign it please.

BobbyBobberson

robinph wrote: »

The data showing where people have signed up from is available on the petition website, and the post code distribution is shown on a map linked from it.

Point out if you spot anything dubious in that data.

Indeed, makes interesting reading. The petitions website has said 95% of votes were inside the UK.

Inquitus

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

Indeed, makes interesting reading. The petitions website has said 95% of votes were inside the UK.

And British citizens living overseas are allowed to "officially" sign it as well. The distribution of votes map also tallies strongly with the referendum vote, in all likelyhood it is 90%+ legit.

ancapailldorcha

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Can you prove they're not? The simple fact is that anyone with an Internet connection and an email can vote in it.

I didn't make the claim so the burden of proof isn't on me.

PokeHerKing

Inquitus wrote:

And British citizens living overseas are allowed to "officially" sign it as well. The distribution of votes map also tallies strongly with the referendum vote, in all likelyhood it is 90%+ legit.

Which brings us to the second point(less). Its the same people who already voted against Brexit signing it.

branie2

The number of petitioners have passed the five million mark.

FrancieBrady

branie2 wrote: »

The number of petitioners have passed the five million mark.

The question is, what is the point of this?
We know already that there are 16m Remainers.

Inquitus

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Which brings us to the second point(less). Its the same people who already voted against Brexit signing it.

Democracy is about opinions changing over time, and allowing that change in the voters thinking to be manifested periodically via a democratic vote. The leave the EU portion of the Referendum covered everything from Norway to WTO, now that whats on offer has been clarified it is certainly undemocratic to not allow people to express any change in thought they might have had in the intervening 3 years.

The only reason Brexiteers are scared of it is because they know they'll lose!

ancapailldorcha

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The question is, what is the point of this?
We know already that there are 16m Remainers.

Any petition that gets 10,000 must get a response from the government. Some are selected for a debate in the House of Commons.

All a petition like this does is show that there is a lot of people who want a People's Vote or a revocation of Article 50. It doesn't force the government to do anything but it's better than doing nothing.

Calina

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Can you prove they're not? The simple fact is that anyone with an Internet connection and an email can vote in it.

I believe the overwhelming majority have voted from the UK. This can be traced and iirc, the petitions team have confirmed this.

BobbyBobberson

From the website.

Parliament considers all petitions that get more than 100,000 signatures for a debate

Government responds to all petitions that get more than 10,000 signatures

https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=241584

Gives a percentage of how many constituents voted too.

Irishmale0399

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Any petition that gets 10,000 must get a response from the government. Some are selected for a debate in the House of Commons.

All a petition like this does is show that there is a lot of people who want a People's Vote or a revocation of Article 50. It doesn't force the government to do anything but it's better than doing nothing.

But why would an MP start a debate about something that doesnt seem to appeal to more than 10-15% of his or her constituents??? Having had a quick look at the map and the stats behind it you are probably talking about 8-9% on average UK wide.


Instead of doing nothing the government that you seem to have voted for should be coming together to support the withdrawal agreement which is on the table and was negociated by your elected PM to prevent a hard Brexit and further damage to the image of the UK worldwide. Kicking the can and blaming the others is school ground stuff.....the EU have been very clear that it wont reopen the deal so get on with it.

Infini

theguzman wrote: »

Amazingly 17,410,742 people voted to leave the European Union, a simple petition with millions of non British citizens voting in it will not over-rule the democratic mandate of the Referendum to leave the EU in 2016. It is a really pathetic attempt by the hard-left to derail the democratic process at all costs.

Which is all well and good saying so UNTIL

1)Vote was non binding,
2)Had vote been binding it would have been rendered null and void due to leave campaign cheating,
3)Would have been a rerun at least at that point
4)Was based on misinformation and outright lies and deceit,
5)17.4mil is about 23% of the population hardly an overwhelming majority hell not even 1/4 of the population,
6)Vote was primarily carried in England and Wales, Clear remain votes in NI and Scotland,
7)3 years have passed and no one on either side is happy,
8)Staying costs nothing compared to losing everything by leaving,
9)No deal is not a plan its an unnecessary avoidable car crash of a disaster,
10)Leave hasn't lead a poll in over a year,
11)Did i forget to mention that leave won on lies and didn't have a plan because they didnt expect to win?
12)Hard Brexit risk a re-ignition of civil disorder in NI
13)The only viable plan to withdraw has been rejected by parliament twice due to being obviously worse than membership
14)No viable alternatives other than either a 2nd referendum or remain, no deal will cause end of UK as its known.
15)Parliament can vote multiple times on deals and plans yet people cannot have a 2nd vote to either accept or remain
16)Pointless needless and utterly incompetent conservatives driving this not Labour.
17)March yesterday nearly the highest since the Iraqi War protests, meanwhile Farage has something like 100 odd for leave.
18)The vote was won by a small margin not decisively and not fairly.

I could go on but I think I've made plenty of points to this effect. Your reasoning is blinkered, your argument is quite literally weak its the same as the "leave means leave" mantra, Just because you won a vote doesn't mean you can get your way with no responsibility whatsoever, if you win you must have a plan to follow, responsibilities don't go out the window just because you feel like it.

The obvious choice would be a vote between the deal or remain but the Brexiteers don't want this because they know they wont win twice, the tides turned against them and they're trying to keep the claws in their leave plans despite the fact that leave is no longer a plan its a disaster that will destroy the current UK inside a decade. Ignorance and Incompetence don't get you anything.

ancapailldorcha

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

But why would an MP start a debate about something that doesnt seem to appeal to more than 10-15% of his or her constituents??? Having had a quick look at the map and the stats behind it you are probably talking about 8-9% on average UK wide.


Instead of doing nothing the government that you seem to have voted for should be coming together to support the withdrawal agreement which is on the table and was negociated by your elected PM to prevent a hard Brexit and further damage to the image of the UK worldwide. Kicking the can and blaming the others is school ground stuff.....the EU have been very clear that it wont reopen the deal so get on with it.

Where are you getting that 10-15% figure from exactly?

When did we elect the PM? I recall her being elected as MP for Maidenhead. We don't elect our head of state, the membership of the governing party do.

Why should we welcome a terrible deal that neither remainers or leavers want? It's despised by both for a reason.

trashcan

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

The hard left? Really?

Ah, the hard left are to blame for everything dontcha know.

BobbyBobberson

trashcan wrote: »

Ah, the hard left are to blame for everything dontcha know.

Ha, exactly. I somehow doubt Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell are signing that petition :pac:

WhiteMan32

Up to just a couple of days ago, the two most extreme & opposing views on the Brexit crisis were Leave with No-Deal vs Second Referendum. This online petition now makes Revoking Article 50 as Remainers even more extreme choice. With that, it should hopefully make the option of a Second Referendum come across as more moderate and rational than it has been looked upon by some MPs up to now.

Also, the petition has made it onto the mainstream news - BBC, Sky etc - because at 5m-plus signatures, it is now the most popular petition ever on UK parliament website.

Inquitus

WhiteMan32 wrote: »

Up to just a couple of days ago, the two most extreme & opposing views on the Brexit crisis were Leave with No-Deal vs Second Referendum. This online petition now makes Revoking Article 50 as Remainers even more extreme choice. With that, it should hopefully make the option of a Second Referendum come across as more moderate and rational than it has been looked upon by some MPs up to now.

Also, the petition has made it onto the mainstream news - BBC, Sky etc - because at 5m-plus signatures, it is now the most popular petition ever on UK parliament website.

I do think most rational remainers understand the only practical way to revoke A50 is to have a referendum to legitimise it.

devnull

Inquitus wrote: »

Seems May has a new plan, have indicative votes, and if the outcome conflicts with the Tory Manifesto, which if they reach a majority conclusion it likely will, then threaten her MP's with a GE and have another go at MV3. Effectively My Deal or a long delay and a GE.

So basically Theresa May is saying that if you vote for a No Deal, which goes against the Tory manifesto, then May will accept it and that will be the end of it because she agrees with it, but if you vote for something I don't like that is against the manifesto then I'm not going to allow that and am going to threaten you with an election? And she calls that democracy?

As usual with Theresa May it's one rule for one thing and one for another, even in her letter which outlined four options last week she said that she would be against a long delay and withdrawing article 50, which left two options, her deal and no deal. It was noticeable she said nothing negative about no deal, just that the parliament ruled it out.

The time has come for removal of the whip, indicative votes in parliament and an agreement that whatever is voted for will be implemented. Saying that certain votes have to be abided by and implemented if they are won if they suit your agenda and saying other votes which don't which are won will not be respected and used for the basis of threatening an election is not democracy.