Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

UsedToWait

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

... however I would tend to question your neutrality here in the thead as a mod. The topic seems to be one you are very passionate about.....

I think that's extremely unfair..
This must be one of the most contentious threads on boards, and, in the main, it has been moderated exceptionally well.

Personally, I feel some of those parroting the looniest of the ERG and DUP lines on Brexit, and clearly not prepared to genuinely debate their opinions have been given too much leeway at times, so I'd like to see examples of biased moderation from ancapailldorcha, if you're going to make such insinuations.

BobbyBobberson

UsedToWait wrote: »

I think that's extremely unfair..
This must be one of the most contentious threads on boards, and, in the main, it has been moderated exceptionally well.

Personally, I feel some of those parroting the looniest of the ERG and DUP lines on Brexit, and clearly not prepared to genuinely debate their opinions have been given too much leeway at times, so I'd like to see examples of biased moderation from ancapailldorcha, if you're going to make such insinuations.

I agree, I would hate to mod this thread. ancapailldorcha has pulled me up on stuff before and never unfairly.

It is such an enjoyable thread, it moves at a ridiculous pace trying to keep up with the mess that is Brexit.

theguzman

This thread is entirely anti-Brexit, I think there should be a separate thread for those opposed to the EU and in favour of Brexit.

An Ciarraioch

theguzman wrote: »

This thread is entirely anti-Brexit, I think there should be a separate thread for those opposed to the EU and in favour of Brexit.

When has anyone censored you here? Just fight your corner, and have plenty of facts to hand to back up your arguments.

Inquitus

theguzman wrote: »

This thread is entirely anti-Brexit, I think there should be a separate thread for those opposed to the EU and in favour of Brexit.

You'll end up talking to yourself, anyone who agrees with you is on Farage's march!

BobbyBobberson

theguzman wrote: »

This thread is entirely anti-Brexit, I think there should be a separate thread for those opposed to the EU and in favour of Brexit.

Well sure go start one.

Infini

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

1. It shows a small percentage of the population want something. The referendum showed something totally different, a majority who wanted to leave.

Brexit is an exercise in stupidity of the highest order. People deserve a final say on such a decisive manner. The Brexiteers if they'd lost the first referendum were perfectly willing to continue agitating for it but when they won and got their shot they can't do it without doing it the most damaging and worst way possible. They're incompetents and idiots and as far as I'm concerned hypocrites because they put feeling and ignorance before facts which quite simply makes them unfit. Got a problem with something? Fine come up with a constructive alternative. Cant do it and regress to BS and lies? They dont deserve to get their way then.

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

2. If the government is functioning why havent they passed/accepted the WA or put an alternative on the table......in my humble opinion...its far from functioning. If anything its a case of the UK wanting everything their way...problem is they dont know what they want.

They literally should have renamed the conservative's to the Colosseum party because they constantly have the knives out to back stab one another. They put selfish self interest before the national interest and party before country, that's why they're in such a mess because they cant agree a constructive way out that is both responsible and orderly. They didn't agree a cross party consensus for such a drastic national change and now its biting them in the arse big time hence why they've become locked in infighting and oppertunistic sniping.

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

1+3. Again if no one lobbies an MP directly why should he or she change their path??? Childish is signing a petition which is clearly open to manipulation as it is open to people who were not in a position to legally vote in the original referendum (same goes for marching) and then claiming it is a bases for a "a People's Vote or a revocation of Article 50"

Your too quick to dismiss the petition as simple childishness. Look at the difference between the remain and leave protests. Leave is barely 150 odd people march being led by the king of idiots Farage (who's too lazy to even walk it himself) who protest based on slogans and emotion. Meanwhile the biggest protest since the Iraqi war has taken place in London because many of them are seriously worried bout their futures and because the government has made a total bollocks of the whole thing. May needlessly closing off escape routes and paying to much attention to the European Troll Group isnt making things any better and they risk their countrys future with this rudderless immature BS. If they cant commit they should quit and have another vote rather than run the country off the cliffs of dover for the sake of ignorant stupidity and leave a huge mess for everyone inside and outside Britain to clean up.

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Enough said on the matter, as I said yesterday in my pm I am not going to argue with you on the matter as we clearly have 2 very different opinions on it.....however I would tend to question your neutrality here in the thead as a mod. The topic seems to be one you are very passionate about.....

Ah would you stop with that now. Poor mods have enough to deal with in this thread considering its the biggest topic on what will essentially become the "How to wreck your country for idiots".

robinph

theguzman wrote: »

This thread is entirely anti-Brexit, I think there should be a separate thread for those opposed to the EU and in favour of Brexit.

Post away about the positive points regarding brexit if you have anything other than blue passports, would be delighted to hear what they are.

Infini

Inquitus wrote: »

You'll end up talking to yourself, anyone who agrees with you is on Farage's march!

MEANWHILE in another city...

theguzman wrote: »

This thread is entirely anti-Brexit, I think there should be a separate thread for those opposed to the EU and in favour of Brexit.

And then next thing it will be the thread is an echo chamber or a remoaner room or a safe space?

Seriously the real problem with those who support Brexit is when challenged with facts and how people will be affected and when blatent lies (the bullshít bus example) are pointed out you cant concede the point that you might be wrong, that's why Brexit is such a mess people who want this when confronted with the problems either ignore them or try to hand-wave them away ignoring the responsibilities. That's why Brexit is bad because there's no good arguments about it and worse the only option now seems to crash out in a colossal wreck of failure and ignorant stupidity. If you got a good argument for it make it and back it up with facts, don't whinge when the hypcracy, ignorance and holes in your argument's are highlighted because that means your wrong and refusing to concede that point.

theguzman

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

When has anyone censored you here? Just fight your corner, and have plenty of facts to hand to back up your arguments.

I have been infracted and banned three times simply for having a pro-Brexit point of view.

Professor Moriarty

theguzman wrote: »

I have been infracted and banned three times simply for having a pro-Brexit point of view.

Gosh that's awful. Any old pro-Brexit facts while you're here?

Irish Praetorian

Impetus wrote: »

Is BREXIT not a war between largely Normans ('remainers' - eg more Irish or more Spanish or Italian than the Irish/Spanish/N Italians etc) (ie Norman remainers are largely in S England) and Saxons (Exiters are in E and N England)? The biggest demonstrations against immigration in Germany were in Saxony (eg Leipzig). And one suspects that their Saxon cousins in GB have similar attitudes/DNA. Polychronic (Frankish) German states such as Bavaria and Baden Württemberg do not have similar problems and manage to create great food, beer and cars and one of the highest standards of living in the world (eg Porsche, Mercedes Benz, BMW, Audi etc).

The Weekend Financial Times (a Japanese owned newspaper) has an interesting story "Who governs Britain".

Google search: who governs britain site:ft.com

Ah now here's a fascinating take on it all! It's quite interesting what you say when it comes to Anglo-Saxon migration and support for the leave campaign - certainly a cursory examination of the mapping of leave vs remain by district suggests that some of the strongest leave voting areas (and Im thinking mostly around Boston) were also the sites of greatest Anglo-Saxon migration following the collapse of Roman authority in Britain. But there's a few problems with this suggestion;

Firstly, the problem of migration itself - it might be ambitious to consider migration in bygone periods as simply a case of the new arrivals moving in and the locals moving out (or simply dying) when it appears to be the case that frequently such great 'population transfers' were actually simply a replacement of the ruling class with accompanying changes in the language of the majority over time.

Secondly, we have to consider sequential migration - the Angles and the Saxons might have been one of the first groups to move into England but they certainly were the last and we have to consider the impact of groups like the Vikings, particularly in many of these same regions, in determining the character of the vote. The same applies to groups like the Normans who appear to have epitomised the idea of the invading elite, but unlike the Anglo-Saxons they 'went native'.

Thirdly, there's the issue of the fens - it may amuse people to learn that Britain 1500-1000 years ago did not exactly match up with the geographic image of the country we have today. In the year 500, much of the now leave voting areas on the east coast were actually still underwater or were swampland, which is one of the reasons groups like the Vikings could access the interior so easily. So it's difficult to consider the idea of areas retaining a continuously 'Saxon' bloodline in such emerging areas.

Fourthly, there's a bit of a gap in the argument when it comes to the groups in question; whilst one might argue for a common 'Saxon resilience' to EU (or EUish) ideas, the problem is the Angles and Saxons were not migrating to England from what is now 'Saxony' as in Leipzig, but rather from 'Lower Saxony' which is on the NW coast and includes places like Bremen and Hannover, at a time when what is now considered 'Saxony' wasn't even inhabited by Germans, but rather by proto-Slavic tribes. Now one could potentially get around this by arguing its a legacy of Saxon colonies if that's how one wanted to categorize England and what is now the state of Saxony, but it seems like a bit of a stretch.

Lastly, we have the problem of alternate explanations; naturally it doesn't seem too much of a stretch to reach the conclusion that explaining this by 1500 year old migration patterns rather than say, a rural-urban divide or depressed v prosperous areas or even areas with greater and lesser levels of migration.

Now you might still be able to make an argument for this theory on some level I'm not sure which, but aren't we all just happy to be able to spend a few moments thinking about sub-Roman Europe and migration patterns before we have to get back onto the tedious grind of Brexit proper?

theguzman

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Gosh that's awful. Any old pro-Brexit facts while you're here?

Brexit was a bellweather vote on immigration, actually alot of people were not so much opposed to the EU as they are to open borders and unlimited immigration. Had the vote said: Shall we close the borders, end free movement of people and deport illegal immigrants enmasse then it would have passed by around 70% to 30% in a total landlside.

I myself am in favour of free trade with the EU but will not accept the sort of sovereignty erosion that the EU is attempting to foist upon nations. It started about free trade but is moving further and further to something resembling Hitlers Third Reich. The British were right to vote out, the EU has proven itself to be un-reformable, it is their way or the highway. Let it crumble and fall apart and from the ashes can come some type of free trading agreement throughout the continent. Italy has recently hedged their bets on China knowing the EU's days are numbered.

An Ciarraioch

theguzman wrote: »

Brexit was a bellweather vote on immigration, actually alot of people were not so much opposed to the EU as they are to open borders and unlimited immigration. Had the vote said: Shall we close the borders, end free movement of people and deport illegal immigrants enmasse then it would have passed by around 70% to 30% in a total landlside.

I myself am in favour of free trade with the EU but will not accept the sort of sovereignty erosion that the EU is attempting to foist upon nations. It started about free trade but is moving further and further to something resembling Hitlers Third Reich. The British were right to vote out, the EU has proven itself to be un-reformable, it is their way or the highway. Let it crumble and fall apart and from the ashes can come some type of free trading agreement throughout the continent. Italy has recently hedged their bets on China knowing the EU's days are numbered.

Except that UK immigration numbers are now at an all-time high, with non-EU migration three times that from within the EU:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47400679

Inquitus

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Except that UK immigration numbers are now at an all-time high, with non-EU migration three times that from within the EU:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47400679

You can't reason with the likes of him, its futile, they just parrot the same debunked nonsense over and over again, much like the Brexiteers on TV. When questioned they never engage.

LiamoSail

theguzman wrote: »

This thread is entirely anti-Brexit, I think there should be a separate thread for those opposed to the EU and in favour of Brexit.

There’s plenty of UKIP/DUP supporting forums out there catering from every type of brexiter, from the ignorant uniformed to the blatant racist

Capt'n Midnight

PokeHerKing wrote: »

I have signed the petition, I am not a British citizen nor am I living in Britain. I couldn't care to put a figure on it but the fact I can do this proves the petition is susceptible to some unscrupulous behaviour.

Personally the numbers imo are low, considering 2 years there was a guaranteed 17 million against Brexit. We've since had 2 years of a **** show and to date the petition hasn't even racked up the original 17 million.

It's 10 times higher than the Leave Petition.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963

Professor Moriarty

theguzman wrote: »

Brexit was a bellweather vote on immigration, actually alot of people were not so much opposed to the EU as they are to open borders and unlimited immigration. Had the vote said: Shall we close the borders, end free movement of people and deport illegal immigrants enmasse then it would have passed by around 70% to 30% in a total landlside.

Immigration was one of the key factors for people voting Leave. However, it was Britain's fault that immigration wasn't stemmed, not the EU's. Britain, unlike most EU countries, failed to implement existing EU laws on immigration.

I myself am in favour of free trade with the EU but will not accept the sort of sovereignty erosion that the EU is attempting to foist upon nations. It started about free trade but is moving further and further to something resembling Hitlers Third Reich

.
You were doing fine until you brought Godwin into the argument. Kind of shot yourself in the foot.

The British were right to vote out, the EU has proven itself to be un-reformable, it is their way or the highway.

Well, they will pay a heavy price for storming off in a huff because they can't get their own way.

Let it crumble and fall apart and from the ashes can come some type of free trading agreement throughout the continent.

The EU is the best thing that has happened to Europe and to Ireland. Regardless of FTAs.

Italy has recently hedged their bets on China knowing the EU's days are numbered.

No they haven't. They simply held some meaningless talks with China. Portugal did the same a year ago. The populists currently in control of Italy haven't a clue. Their economy is tanking and the EU wouldn't allow them to self-harm any further. So they suck up to Russia and China trying to play at childish manipulation. Bit like the lunatic fringe of the Tory party aka the ERG.

Infini

Bit of an image dump but a few examples from ledbydonkeys why Brexit is bad and why for those who have paid attention and red into the subject would oppose this.









Brexit: Smells like Hypocracy....

fly_agaric

theguzman wrote: »

I have been infracted and banned three times simply for having a pro-Brexit point of view.

That's very unfair...

(The EEC/EU) started about free trade but is moving further and further to something resembling Hitlers Third Reich...

I think I remember there were some startling "alternative facts" (like the above) put forward in support of Brexit and Irexit on earlier threads.
Could that have had something to do with the warnings/bans?

MrFresh

theguzman wrote: »

Brexit was a bellweather vote on immigration, actually alot of people were not so much opposed to the EU as they are to open borders and unlimited immigration. Had the vote said: Shall we close the borders, end free movement of people and deport illegal immigrants enmasse then it would have passed by around 70% to 30% in a total landlside.

What open borders and unlimited immigration?

theguzman wrote: »

I myself am in favour of free trade with the EU but will not accept the sort of sovereignty erosion that the EU is attempting to foist upon nations. It started about free trade but is moving further and further to something resembling Hitlers Third Reich. The British were right to vote out, the EU has proven itself to be un-reformable, it is their way or the highway. Let it crumble and fall apart and from the ashes can come some type of free trading agreement throughout the continent. Italy has recently hedged their bets on China knowing the EU's days are numbered.

I think it's blatantly evident that you haven't a notion what Hitler's Third Reich was.

Headshot

I read there's a loads of Tories meeting May at the moment about Brexit

Interesting times ahead, strap in and get the popcorn

BonnieSituation

theguzman wrote: »

Brexit was a bellweather vote on immigration, actually alot of people were not so much opposed to the EU as they are to open borders and unlimited immigration. Had the vote said: Shall we close the borders, end free movement of people and deport illegal immigrants enmasse then it would have passed by around 70% to 30% in a total landlside.

I myself am in favour of free trade with the EU but will not accept the sort of sovereignty erosion that the EU is attempting to foist upon nations. It started about free trade but is moving further and further to something resembling Hitlers Third Reich. The British were right to vote out, the EU has proven itself to be un-reformable, it is their way or the highway. Let it crumble and fall apart and from the ashes can come some type of free trading agreement throughout the continent. Italy has recently hedged their bets on China knowing the EU's days are numbered.

What is the obsession with "trade" of pro-Brexiters?

You'd swear they were all exporters and that tariffs affected them in such a granular way that it is the be all and end all.

It's maddening.

And given you are a pro-Brexiter can you not accept that lots of us love freedom of movement and other benefits that EU membership brings like say, SEPA and mobile data roaming, as it makes our lives easier and better.

And that there are thousands of kids out there that have experienced Erasmus, and that the likes of these processes are positives for those people and so on.

The last thing on my mind when I eat a banana is that a tonne of them have €117.00 attached to them in tariffs.

You don't like the EU. Cool. But a lot of us do.

But that doesn't mean we think it's beyond criticism but until a Brexiter argues coherently and gives us a reason as to why the "EU is SO EVIL" then we will remain ambivalent to your frankly nauseating rhetoric.

BonnieSituation

Headshot wrote: »

I read there's a loads of Tories meeting May at the moment about Brexit

Interesting times ahead, strap in and get the popcorn

There's no more popcorn left.

Infini

Headshot wrote: »

I read there's a loads of Tories meeting May at the moment about Brexit

Interesting times ahead, strap in and get the popcorn

They led themselves into this mess, if they ever want to live a normal life in Britain they might wanna consider a 2nd referendum at this point at least if they get leave again they got their cover and they'd have time to come up with a better plan otherwise if they crash out they'll never be able to step outside in their own country again without somebody hurling abuse or worse at them.

May also needs to cop on as well at this stage and not railroad herself away from obvious OUTs to this situation because she's made a right fool of herself expecially after her little speech the other day.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

There's no more popcorn left.

Maybe in Britain but I'm sure we can spare some extra we do produce too much to feed ourselves but somebody over there thought they could starve us a while back! Sure the lads in Europe might want some to enjoy too!

Sardonicat

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Headshot wrote: »

I read there's a loads of Tories meeting May at the moment about Brexit

Interesting times ahead, strap in and get the popcorn

There's no more popcorn left.

We've moved on to vomit bags.

Headshot

Can someone remind me what amendments are we going to see tomorrow in parliament?

BobbyBobberson

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What is the obsession with "trade" of pro-Brexiters?

You'd swear they were all exporters and that tariffs affected them in such a granular way that it is the be all and end all.

It's maddening.

I have often thought this, the obsession is bizarre. Who thinks to themselves about trade? You see those who are pro Brexit from working class areas, their schools are falling down around them as are their hospitals and they say "We could do better deals with China".

Of course Germany trade something like five times more with China than the UK does but thats a fact always ignored.

woohoo!!!

They need to crash out, see up close and personal what this WTO actually means for them. They need to see what the tories have dropped on them and see through the lies that the EU is the root of all evil.

BobbyBobberson

woohoo!!! wrote: »

They need to crash out, see up close and personal what this WTO actually means for them. They need to see what the tories have dropped on them and see through the lies that the EU is the root of all evil.

Merkel said something similar I think. She believed at the time (that has probably changed) that the UK would have its Darkest Hour moment, realise the cliff edge was in front of them and sign the deal.