Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

WhiteMan32

theguzman wrote: »

This thread is entirely anti-Brexit, I think there should be a separate thread for those opposed to the EU and in favour of Brexit.

As you will see from below, there are separate petitions open for each side - pro-Brexit and anti-Brexit. While both petitions remain open, the one on the left has somewhat of an unfair advantage in that it has been online since November last.... whereas the one on the right was only created last month.

(To check for the latest figures for each petition, click on the graphic)

woohoo!!!

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

woohoo!!! wrote: »

They need to crash out, see up close and personal what this WTO actually means for them. They need to see what the tories have dropped on them and see through the lies that the EU is the root of all evil.

Merkel said something similar I think. She believed at the time (that has probably changed) that the UK would have its Darkest Hour moment, realise the cliff edge was in front of them and sign the deal.

You're arguing with emotion, a feeling, it's not an argument one can win unfortunately. I think this will take a decade at least but it's something they have to sort out themselves.

fash

woohoo!!! wrote: »

They need to crash out, see up close and personal what this WTO actually means for them. They need to see what the tories have dropped on them and see through the lies that the EU is the root of all evil.

But the only reason that would not be sunny uplands would be if the root of all evil EU wanted to punish plucky Britain for leaving the EU and who would want to be part of such a mean organisation.?

woohoo!!!

fash wrote: »

woohoo!!! wrote: »

They need to crash out, see up close and personal what this WTO actually means for them. They need to see what the tories have dropped on them and see through the lies that the EU is the root of all evil.

But the only reason that would not be sunny uplands would be if the root of all evil EU wanted to punish plucky Britain for leaving the EU and who would want to be part of such a mean organisation.?

Exactly why it'll take at least a decade until the guy who thinks I've nothing to lose come to the realisation that's the biggest lie he ever swallowed.

Irishmale0399

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

Merkel said something similar I think. She believed at the time (that has probably changed) that the UK would have its Darkest Hour moment, realise the cliff edge was in front of them and sign the deal.

Merkel sits in the lap of the German car and chemical industry.....she has been lobbying for a long time for the UK to be given every chance to remain and has said only last week that they should get all the time they need up to the last second to revoke A50. Soon after the French were calling for a hard brexit.


Additionally last week many British citizens living in certain German cities received post from the German dole/social welfare office informing them that they would not recieve any benifits from the 1 April 2019 in the event of a hard brexit or they had already been cut. Something Merkels government did all they could do to play down, blamed local autoritories for mis-informing them. A number of local mayors then said British citizens in the event of a hard brexit in Germany would, under current law, have to be treated as refugees as there is no agreements in place to deal with them in any other way.



For those of you who speak German
https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/ausland/eu/id_85455598/wegen-brexit-briten-in-berlin-wird-hartz-iv-gestrichen.html

Nody

fash wrote: »

But the only reason that would not be sunny uplands would be if the root of all evil EU wanted to punish plucky Britain for leaving the EU and who would want to be part of such a mean organisation.?

But once again this is double thinking ala 1984 as we've seen on the Irish border (i.e. there's wonderful technical solutions that we can implement right away but we refuse a back stop clause because you'll keep us in the CU for ever) etc.

If there is this cornucopia out there of countries wanting to write this awesome trade deals with UK how can EU punish UK by refusing to sign a trade deal? Once again double thinking.

Pretty much every single item a Brexiteer can bring up as a complaint tends to have a double think issue they ignore. EU is not democratic when electing leaders; UK's system works on the same principals of electing leaders in parties. EU got tons of bureaucrats; same functions now needs to be replicated by UK and UK loses the benefits of shared competence and scale while EU operates on a drastically lower percentage by comparison. EU needs UK more than UK needs EU; EU are mean by refusing to sign a trade deal on UK terms.

I could go on but the constant double think approach is really annoying at this stage. At least have enough courage to stick to one position instead of constantly swing between contradicting opinions (or facts) depending on what point of the same argument is being made.

Strazdas

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

I have often thought this, the obsession is bizarre. Who thinks to themselves about trade? You see those who are pro Brexit from working class areas, their schools are falling down around them as are their hospitals and they say "We could do better deals with China".

Of course Germany trade something like five times more with China than the UK does but thats a fact always ignored.

The funny thing is that the British Eurosceptic movement was always centred on the idea of sovereignty and never had anything to say about trade deals.

Trade was tacked on by Vote Leave and the right wing press around the time of the calling of the referendum. It would suggest they must have been successful in getting their propaganda out (even though the whole trade thing was and is a delusion).

Water John

Headshot, when you need to find consensus through indicitive votes, is it these headbangers you choose to consult?

'May was planning to meet Brexit rebels Boris Johnson, Dominic Raab, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Steve Baker and Iain Duncan Smith at Chequers as she tries to find a way to cling on to her job and get her deal through the Commons.' Guardian

BobbyBobberson

Strazdas wrote: »

The funny thing is that the British Eurosceptic movement was always centred on the idea of sovereignty and never had anything to say about trade deals.

Trade was tacked on by Vote Leave and the right wing press around the time of the calling of the referendum. It would suggest they must have been successful in getting their propaganda out (even though the whole trade thing was and is a delusion).

https://fullfact.org/europe/british-influence-eu-council-ministers/

This is interesting in relation to UK influence.

Headshot

Headshot wrote: »

Can someone remind me what amendments are we going to see tomorrow in parliament?

Found this on Sky News

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-whats-happening-in-the-house-of-commons-this-week-11674222

Yvette Cooper amendment wont go down well with EU 27.

robinph

WhiteMan32 wrote: »

As you will see from below, there are separate petitions open for each side - pro-Brexit and anti-Brexit. While both petitions remain open, the one on the left has somewhat of an unfair advantage in that it has been online since November last.... whereas the one on the right was only created last month.

(To check for the latest figures for each petition, click on the graphic)

The leave petition has also been open for nearly 6 months already, and has already been responded to by parliamentary committee, and 50% of the signatories on it have only done so in the last couple of days since it was posted on threads pointing out its lack of respondents in comparison to the remain one.

Spanish Eyes

Could be an interesting week ahead.

So HoC swatted away No Deal, and WA.

I really do wonder what they do want, and if they would communicate it please!

20silkcut

Infini wrote: »

Bit of an image dump but a few examples from ledbydonkeys why Brexit is bad and why for those who have paid attention and red into the subject would oppose this.









Brexit: Smells like Hypocracy....

Great quotes in them pictures.
All I can say is my god what a shambles.

Don’t get me wrong no deal is a disaster but I can’t deny the alluring sense of schadenfreude I have building up for those ardent brexiteers and the inevitable minor serotonin crash that will occur if or when disaster is averted.

I suppose my reptilian brain wants something big to happen. After three years of constant Brexit Brexit Brexit.

An Ciarraioch

Chequers, predictably, appears to have been a damp squib:

http://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1109910454674051076

ancapailldorcha

But no deal is the legal default and no substantial changes have been made to the Withdrawal Agreement. We leave on Friday. Surely a significant extension or cancelling the whole thing by either plebiscite/Parliament is the only way now.

Itssoeasy

I mean the question that was put to the British public was did they want to leave or remain in the EU. It never said “if leave in what way will we leave the EU ?” That’s why I think there should be a second referendum to ask the British people are they happy with how their government has decided or negotiated to leave. I don’t see why the second amendment is such a bad thing with the leave side if they believe they are right.

BobbyBobberson

Rees Mogg more or less said same thing years ago. One referendum on whether to leave or not and another on what type of leave.

Spanish Eyes

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

But no deal is the legal default and no substantial changes have been made to the Withdrawal Agreement. We leave on Friday. Surely a significant extension or cancelling the whole thing by either plebiscite/Parliament is the only way now.

Well when Government has no road map, all theories are valid.

Is it not the case that if the third MV either does not happen or is voted down, exit happens on 12/4 rather than 29/3?

I agree that the two options left are revoke or a long extension (+ EP elections for UK).

Revoke sounds easy doesn't it at this stage. There is no easy way out of this mess anymore, as if there ever was.

But there is also a No Deal Exit option, which no one wants apparently.

An Ciarraioch

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

But no deal is the legal default and no substantial changes have been made to the Withdrawal Agreement. We leave on Friday. Surely a significant extension or cancelling the whole thing by either plebiscite/Parliament is the only way now.

Doesn't EU law override UK law - ergo, by the UK accepting the deal on Thursday, that has automatically pushed B-Day back to April 12th, even without a Statutory Instrument?

igCorcaigh

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

But no deal is the legal default and no substantial changes have been made to the Withdrawal Agreement. We leave on Friday. Surely a significant extension or cancelling the whole thing by either plebiscite/Parliament is the only way now.

Hasn't there been an extension by a couple of weeks?

Irishmale0399

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I mean the question that was put to the British public was did they want to leave or remain in the EU. It never said “if leave in what way will we leave the EU ?” That’s why I think there should be a second referendum to ask the British people are they happy with how their government has decided or negotiated to leave. I don’t see why the second amendment is such a bad thing with the leave side if they believe they are right.

How can they ask the people how they should leave when the EU are the ones who sit at the table and more or less dictate it. If the EU say tomorrow sorry game over them its a hard brexit.


The EU wasted 2 years negociating with TM and her team getting a WA in place that was acceptable for both sides. Its not a game of make a wish UK.....they are the ones going to the EU with a begging bowl asking for a fair withdrawal from day 1.

ancapailldorcha

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Well when Government has no road map, all theories are valid.

Is it not the case that if the third MV either does not happen or is voted down, exit happens on 12/4 rather than 29/3?

I agree that the two options left are revoke or a long extension (+ EP elections for UK).

Revoke sounds easy doesn't it at this stage. There is no easy way out of this mess anymore, as if there ever was.

But there is also a No Deal Exit option, which no one wants apparently.

They need a sufficient majority to get past Bercow which is a huge task given the magnitude of the defeats of the first two readings.

Revocation seems to be the only solution. Either way, it looks like we will crash out or contest the EU elections come May.

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Doesn't EU law override UK law - ergo, by the UK accepting the deal on Thursday, that has automatically pushed B-Day back to April 12th, even without a Statutory Instrument?

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Hasn't there been an extension by a couple of weeks?

'Til April 12th. They have to come up with a new solution, ie revoke Article 50 or possibly call a general election. Corbyn has met with the EU side a few times. It's possible they have a separate deal or some backup plan in case he becomes PM.

Imreoir2

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

however I would tend to question your neutrality here in the thead as a mod. The topic seems to be one you are very passionate about.....

I think this is unfair and baseless, and there is a longstanding rule on bords that you do not question moderation in thread. If you feel that a mod is biased and modding a thread badly as a result then report examples of it, there is a process for this kind of thing to prevent a thread being derailed.

A mod being passionate about a topic and modding a thread badly are two totally different things.

Infini

If time runs perilously short then an immediate Revocation of A50 will become a necessity because at that point it will be the only way of putting the whole thing on ice. The Brexiteers will cry but they honestly had their chance and were found wanting. If there's a need for it to go to the people again in a 2nd vote then this should happen but this time only with factual information on hand. If the leavers can't argue their case without resorting to lies then its because they havent got any and making up things for such a monumental decision should never have been allowed to begin with.

Honestly this whole thing is a fiasco and it's only gone on as long as it has because none there has any principals or leadership abilities to be able to stand up to ignorant BS's and call them out every time they fail to back up their statements with coherent facts.

PeadarCo

Imreoir2 wrote:

A mod being passionate about a topic and modding a thread badly are two totally different things.

You need mods to be passionate otherwise why would they bother their free time especially in a forum like politics where things can get very heated. Overall the Brexit megathreads have been very informative and that's in part due to the moderation. When you compare these mega threads to some of the previous mega threads in politics and politics Cafe its amazing that the standard has been maintained and you still have new voices contributing. A lot of previous mega threads descended into points scoring contests between a small number of posters. Again that's in part due to the work of the mods and the sometimes thankless work they do.

BobbyBobberson

Front of The Sun

https://twitter.com/paul__johnson/status/1109938773532528640

The state of Boris

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1109940772399386624

The Rape of Lucretia

Rees-Mogg has made a much better effort to smarten up, even if the jumper is a bit Labour Party. And has his own a driver.

Hurrache

Johnson arrived driving a bit of a junker people carrier, I expect for the purpose of optics for the common man.

BobbyBobberson

Hurrache wrote: »

Johnson arrived driving a bit of a junker people carrier, I expect for the purpose of optics for the common man.

Exactly, he is forever at that craic. I remember him bringing out tea to reporters in mis matched mugs and the commentariat cooed how great he was.

Irish Praetorian

Hurrache wrote: »

Johnson arrived driving a bit of a junker people carrier, I expect for the purpose of optics for the common man.

Tis the will of the people carrier.