Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Hurrache

DUP are getting their knickers in a twist over no No Deal preparations in NI, and laughably Jim Shannon of the DUP saying May is blackmailing no with the threat of no Brexit.

briany

Inquitus wrote: »

They can revoke A50 anytime, it's not clear if May could do it on her own, or it would require a vote affirming same in the HoC, that's a matter of legal conjecture. I don't personally think its feasible to revoke A50 without a mandate from a 2nd referendum, but it is absolutely legally possible to do so.

If the UK government is absolutely committed to avoiding no-deal, then I don't see any real way forward, apart from holding a second referendum. However, I remember the old saying, "Two wrongs don't make a right." The British don't really have referendums in their political tradition (which is partly what made the first such a bad idea), and a second referendum is likely to be politicised beyond the political question at hand. Nigel Farage certainly doesn't have the ear of every Brexit voter, but if he can rally his supporters and precipitate a notable drop off in turnout, and in turn call the referendum illegitimate.

The matter is then the question asked. It's tricky to pose a choice that makes everyone feel like their point of view is represented. The only solution I can see is to ask it in order of preference and do it PR style. It covers the 3 main standpoints and ensures that there'll be a majority for whatever's chosen. I know PR isn't exactly a big part of the UK political tradition either, but it's radical problems, radical solutions at this stage.

Inquitus

briany wrote: »

If the UK government is absolutely committed to avoiding no-deal, then I don't see any real way forward, apart from holding a second referendum. However, I remember the old saying, "Two wrongs don't make a right." The British don't really have referendums in their political tradition (which is partly what made the first such a bad idea), and a second referendum is likely to be politicised beyond the political question at hand. Nigel Farage certainly doesn't have the ear of every Brexit voter, but if he can rally his supporters and precipitate a notable drop off in turnout, and in turn call the referendum illegitimate.

The matter is then the question asked. It's tricky to pose a choice that makes everyone feel like their point of view is represented. The only solution I can see is to ask it in order of preference and do it PR style. It covers the 3 main standpoints and ensures that there'll be a majority for whatever's chosen. I know PR isn't exactly a big part of the UK political tradition either, but it's radical problems, radical solutions at this stage.

I would agree, to satisfy the question you would ideally have Remain, May's Deal and No Deal in an AV referendum.

sink

https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1110268913760260097

Dog whistle racism or just pure ineptitude? As a firm believer in Hanlon's razor I'm inclined to go with the latter, but my god what utter imbeciles.

RobMc59

sink wrote: »

https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1110268913760260097

Dog whistle racism or just pure ineptitude? As a firm believer in Hanlon's razor I'm inclined to go with the latter, but my god what utter imbeciles.

It's the sort of thing you'd expect to hear in dumb and dumber!

Joe_ Public

MadYaker wrote: »

If he only cares about elections then why isn't he pushing for remain? Brexit is an unmitigated disaster by the current government and his current position gets him no political capital whatsoever. Theres clearly close to 50% of the population who would support this, maybe more not to mention plenty in his own party. He's a moron.

He’s just very weak on the whole thing and seems to me to have to be pushed into taking any kind of strong position. He gives me the impression he’s focused internally on elections rather than the process of getting there. He’s not a remainer, was nowhere near London on Saturday which was a fairly telling indicator of where he stands on this whole thing.

Loafing Oaf

Joe_ Public wrote: »

He’s just very weak on the whole thing and seems to me to have to be pushed into taking any kind of strong position.

Quite likely never cared much about Europe either way...

Beechwoodspark

The grand wizards?! Wtf.

Water John

That seems to have come from Boris. Kuenssburg has been listening to info from him. He is one of her key sources.

'One of those present said 'it's like the jelly keeps getting nailed to the wall again then you find out that it's fallen on the floor again' Kuenssburg's twitter.

That's a favourite phrase of Boris.

joe40

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Joe_ Public wrote: »

He’s just very weak on the whole thing and seems to me to have to be pushed into taking any kind of strong position.

Quite likely never cared much about Europe either way...

A bit ironic for a labour leader since a lot of the rights workers have are the result of EU legislation.
"What did the EU ever do for us?" sort of thing

Inquitus

Sky News mentioning Mays Deal v Revoke as potentially the last gambit to get it over the line. Seems slightly fanciful, but it might be one way for May to get it done, that said such an epic vote could throw up any result, a lot of remainers in Parliament who could defy the whip for the good of the country, pie in the sky I feel but could be an interesting possibility!

Enzokk

Water John wrote: »

That seems to have come from Boris. Kuenssburg has been listening to info from him. He is one of her key sources.

'One of those present said 'it's like the jelly keeps getting nailed to the wall again then you find out that it's fallen on the floor again' Kuenssburg's twitter.

That's a favourite phrase of Boris.

That is par for the course for Kuenssberg, all about the people involved and what they said and what they will do instead of in depth analysis of the situation. I don't know if the downturn with coverage at the BBC coincided with her becoming political editor but someone here mentioned that she is more interested in the gossip at Westminster rather what is happening. See her tweets where she mentions the name of the group and it is about who will do what. Then look at Ian Dunt's tweets where he talks about what will or could happen and you can see the difference.

devnull

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1110293910646067202

This really is groundhog day isn't it, honestly we don't see any real movement.

Hurrache

sink wrote: »

https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1110268913760260097

Dog whistle racism or just pure ineptitude? As a firm believer in Hanlon's razor I'm inclined to go with the latter, but my god what utter imbeciles.

It's hilarious
https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1110276145164021764?s=19

FrancieBrady

What time is the vote?

Akrasia

RobMc59 wrote: »

It's the sort of thing you'd expect to hear in dumb and dumber!

I'd be extremely skeptical that these people actually referred to themselves as grand wizards. This just seems like Laura Kuenssberg reporting on something somebody said they heard someone else talking about.

A lot of Kuenssberg's reporting of what 'insiders' say has been very hit and miss throughout this whole affair

Headshot

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What time is the vote?

I think we know the results at 10:30pm

Inquitus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What time is the vote?

1st vote will be shortly, seems debate is coming to an end, at the latest it will be 22:00 for the first vote, they will vote on each amendment in order, and results of each vote will be announced before the next one commences. So vote #1 results 22:10 or so and then 10-15 minutes for each thereafter.

Hurrache

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What time is the vote?

10 I believe.

Inquitus

RickBlaine wrote: »

Sorry, quick question. These amendments that are about to be voted on, what are they amendments to?

A neutral Brexit motion, so essentially its just about the amendments the initial motion has no substance.

MrMusician18

Starmer looks nervous

Water John

First vote on Corbyn, second on Letwin and third on Beckett.

Headshot

Hmm I have a bad feeling the indicative votes amendment will lose

Inquitus

Betfair odds on the Letwin amendment as we head towards the vote:

BobbyBobberson

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1110299376491118593

One minister gone.

Topgear on Dave

Here we go...........

Water John

First vote skipped, straight to Letwin.
Harrington must be voting for it as he has resigned.

Inquitus

Straight to Letwin

Hurrache

House looking quieter compared to previous votes?

Headshot

Headshot wrote: »

I think we know the results at 10:30pm

Apologies FrancieBrady it was 10pm alright