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Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

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    #4442
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,991 ✭✭✭Christy42


    So what is getting put forward to the run off?

    The point was to narrow down the options so what are we left with?


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    #4443
    Enzokk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,698 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Eod100 wrote: »
    Oof.

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1111196735613874176


    He and May seems cut from the same cloth. Does he not understand, as someone who constantly voted against his parties policy, that he will need to work together with other parties otherwise the chaos of Brexit will be the result. But someone at Labour obviously think this is the way to go and Corbyn agrees. He really deserves his approval ratings seeing that he is just as much a fool as May is.


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    #4444
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Enzokk wrote: »
    Did they also say that the EU will compromise or give ground at the last minute?

    They said the EU would make it work if the WA was accepted. Even if it was at the last minute


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    #4445
    Enzokk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,698 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Christy42 wrote: »
    So what is getting put forward to the run off?

    The point was to narrow down the options so what are we left with?


    I don't think this is about voting for a policy as only the government can bring forward policies like that. What can be done is a way forward that has a majority in the House Of Commons can be the starting point for new negotiations with the EU. It could be that if Bercow puts forward 3 options all of them has a majority and it would be indicative on what can work.


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    #4446
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Eod100 wrote: »
    Oof.

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1111196735613874176

    Dear Jeremy,
    We here in Ireland managed to look BEYOND whataboutery to end a 30 year war. Perhaps you could stop being so pathetic and do something to avoid your country going off a cliff.

    Yours
    Ireland


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    #4447
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Enzokk wrote: »
    It could be that if Bercow puts forward 3 options all of them has a majority and it would be indicative on what can work.

    They need to change the way they do the votes for the next round though, if it happens. If they stick with the Aye Nay options then it will just be all rejected again.

    Have to do it by 1,2,3 preferences in order to prevent people casting negative votes. Those who don't want any of the options can just abstain, and then argue about their opinion being ignored in the chamber afterwards, but it must be a positive choice only, no negative voting options.


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    #4448
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Dear Jeremy,
    We here in Ireland managed to look BEYOND whataboutery to end a 30 year war. Perhaps you could stop being so pathetic and do something to avoid your country going off a cliff.

    Yours
    Ireland

    So no input from the UK on that back in the day?


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    #4449
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    I'm still not sure about this.. An extension may help things but isn't no deal default until at least 12th April? Bar UK seeking and EU granting one after that date?

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1111195886590353408


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    #4450
    Enzokk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,698 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    robinph wrote: »
    They need to change the way they do the votes for the next round though, if it happens. If they stick with the Aye Nay options then it will just be all rejected again.

    Have to do it by 1,2,3 preferences in order to prevent people casting negative votes. Those who don't want any of the options can just abstain, and then argue about their opinion being ignored in the chamber afterwards, but it must be a positive choice only, no negative voting options.


    I was just making a statement without knowing what would happen, but whatever happens it is no guarantee that the government will accept the votes or work with it in the future. They are only indicative and cannot compel the government to change course if they don't want to. Just like the referendum but as we know politicians are very selective when it comes to manifesto pledges and their honour.


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    #4451
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Eod100 wrote: »
    Yeah understood first bit to be the case but thought extension to 22 May was conditional on MV3 being passed this week but maybe there's some flexibility
    The deal is that if WA is approved by 29 March, EU has said that UK will get extension to 22 May.

    If WA is not passed by 29 March, UK has until 12 April to make a plan and then ask for a longer extension to execute the plan. No guarantee that the longer extension will be given; depends on the plan, and on what EU thinks of it.

    One possible scenario is that WA gets approved after 29 March, and then UK goes to EU and says "Here's our plan; we'll implement the WA. How about it?" And I would think their prospects of getting an extension to 22 May in that case would be pretty good.


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    #4452
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Christy42 wrote: »
    So what is getting put forward to the run off?

    The point was to narrow down the options so what are we left with?
    Still to be decided. The Speaker has the final say, but no doubt there will be talks with and between senior figures from both sides and various factions before the decision is made.


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    #4453
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,512 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Totally crazy though throwing away so much credibility faffing around and tearing themselves apart over it for months and voting it down twice, only to then say "Right well ok then, WA it is." If Westminster was a person it would probably be declared legally incapable and taken into care.


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    #4454
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    So no input from the UK on that back in the day?

    I'm not sure what your point is?


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    #4455
    coolshannagh28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    joe35 wrote: »
    In that pragramme 'brexit and the border' there was a unionist farmer who voted leave. Said he'd be financially worse off but that some things were not about money. I taught it very odd and yet respected is honesty in saying it.

    This sums up the DUP position ,they are more than willing to suffer financially to preserve the union and dilute the GFA , this is a concept many people don't get but it has been a unionist position for 400 + years.


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    #4456
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Still to be decided. The Speaker has the final say, but no doubt there will be talks with and between senior figures from both sides and various factions before the decision is made.

    That is something that hasn't happened at any point in the last three years, no reason to think it will happen in the next few hours. :mad:


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    #4457
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    I'm not sure what your point is?

    The UK contributed equally towards the success of the GFA and this shouldn't be overlooked despite the mess the UK government is making of brexit .


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    #4458
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,380 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    The UK contributed equally towards the success of the GFA and this shouldn't be overlooked despite the mess the UK government is making of brexit .

    Tony Blair's Labour party contributed to the success of the GFA.

    The Tories are doing what they have always done with NI. Treating it as either a pawn in their political games or just something to be ignored and treated with contempt in equal measures.


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    #4459
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Dear Jeremy, We here in Ireland managed to look BEYOND whataboutery to end a 30 year war. Perhaps you could stop being so pathetic and do something to avoid your country going off a cliff.
    I’m sure I’m the only person who’s noticed that Corbyn and his activities and the faintly shadowy, faintly malevolent outfit which backs him in power appear to have some of the same policy goals as our friends and colleagues in the Kremlin, and his word-salady, evasive non-performance in the area of Brexit seems to make quite a lot of sense in this unwelcome light.


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    #4460
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Tony Blair's Labour party contributed to the success of the GFA.

    The Tories are doing what they have always done with NI. Treating it as either a pawn in their political games or just something to be ignored and treated with contempt in equal measures.

    Present it as you like but the UK is equally responsible for the success of the GFA.


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    #4461
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The deal is that if WA is approved by 29 March, EU has said that UK will get extension to 22 May.

    If WA is not passed by 29 March, UK has until 12 April to make a plan and then ask for a longer extension to execute the plan. No guarantee that the longer extension will be given; depends on the plan, and on what EU thinks of it.

    One possible scenario is that WA gets approved after 29 March, and then UK goes to EU and says "Here's our plan; we'll implement the WA. How about it?" And I would think their prospects of getting an extension to 22 May in that case would be pretty good.

    I guess she may be gambling on the indicative process failing, or even subverting it in some way, and then WA making a lazarus like return as the only show in town other than no deal or a divisively long extension. Problem with that is there are much more popular options than her deal now, denying them proper due process would not go down well with parliament.


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    #4462
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,380 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Present it as you like but the UK is equally responsible for the success of the GFA.

    I presented it exactly as it is. The English Tory party are not in any shape or form responsible for the peace that exists in NI. And those responsibilities still exist despite the obvious disdain that this Tory government has for them.

    Which party was it exactly that sent the Paras into NI in the first place?


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    #4463
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,798 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Tony Blair's Labour party contributed to the success of the GFA.

    The Tories are doing what they have always done with NI. Treating it as either a pawn in their political games or just something to be ignored and treated with contempt in equal measures.

    To be fair - John Major's Government had laid some of the first steps towards the GFA with the 1993 Declaration.
    His Government weren't perfect in how they addressed the North, but they showed a significant shift in attitude compared to Thatcher's attitude prior to that. It was only when he lost his majority and became reliant on UUP votes in Westminister that the wheels came off the progress Major had started to make


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    #4464
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,380 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    blackwhite wrote: »
    To be fair - John Major's Government had laid some of the first steps towards the GFA with the 1993 Declaration.
    His Government weren't perfect in how they addressed the North, but they showed a significant shift in attitude compared to Thatcher's attitude prior to that. It was only when he lost his majority and became reliant on UUP votes in Westminister that the wheels came off the progress Major had started to make

    you mean like a pawn in their political games?


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    #4465
    Silent Running
    Registered Users Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭Silent Running


    I was on the ferry from the UK this morning and there was some strange activity while I was queued. The incoming ferry was docking and a large van pulled up at the end of the ramp. They set up cones and magnetic blue and red flashing lights. There was a crew of three. They had "Border Force" on their high-viz jackets.

    Two of the team stood at the cones and observed all the cars coming off the ferry while one sat in the van, she was looking at a monitor and communicating with one of the team by radio. They stopped no cars and packed up and left when all the cars had disembarked.

    I use this ferry route regularly and have never seen this happen.

    No deal preparations perhaps?


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    #4466
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,021 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Tony Blair's Labour party contributed to the success of the GFA.

    The Tories are doing what they have always done with NI. Treating it as either a pawn in their political games or just something to be ignored and treated with contempt in equal measures.
    Hardly fair to John Major. He gave a damn but he wasn't a typical toff Tory.


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    #4467
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »
    Are we even clear that Bercow will allow MV3 on foot of May's agreement to resign?

    Yesterday before the debates about the indicative votes, Bercow explicitly said he will only allow another vote on Theresa May's deal if there is a substantive change to the previous motion. This is extremely unlikely to happen now from the EU side, so she may be forced to include something from the HOC side to change the motion, something like attaching a referendum. Of course, May wouldn't agree to this, so she'd probably just allow the UK to crash out in 2 weeks rather than climb down and propose her own deal being put to a referendum.


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    #4468
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,380 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    murphaph wrote: »
    Hardly fair to John Major. He gave a damn but he wasn't a typical toff Tory.

    yeah he cared up until parliamentary arithmetic came into play...


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    #4469
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,380 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Yesterday before the debates about the indicative votes, Bercow explicitly said he will only allow another vote on Theresa May's deal if there is a substantive change to the previous motion. This is extremely unlikely to happen now from the EU side, so she may be forced to include something from the HOC side to change the motion, something like attaching a referendum. Of course, May wouldn't agree to this, so she'd probably just allow the UK to crash out in 2 weeks rather than climb down and propose her own deal being put to a referendum.

    Well realistically where would that take the process? It must be odds on that a referendum on May's deal would be defeated. Then what?


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    #4470
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    There really is no end to the stupidity. And what's worse is that it's broadcast stupidity. Three years of doing this and it'd still beyond their wit to understand the process.


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    #4471
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    Silent Running wrote: »
    I was on the ferry from the UK this morning and there was some strange activity while I was queued. The incoming ferry was docking and a large van pulled up at the end of the ramp. They set up cones and magnetic blue and red flashing lights. There was a crew of three. They had "Border Force" on their high-viz jackets.

    Two of the team stood at the cones and observed all the cars coming off the ferry while one sat in the van, she was looking at a monitor and communicating with one of the team by radio. They stopped no cars and packed up and left when all the cars had disembarked.

    I use this ferry route regularly and have never seen this happen.

    No deal preparations perhaps?

    Looks like it could well be. Some activity at Eurotunnel this morning too. Not sure who's benefit it's for

    https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1111210715636031488


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