Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Mr.Nice Guy

Grieve was one of the few Tories I had time for. A politician that put his country before his party and personal prospects. I think history will be kinder on him than on some of the other charlatans in his party.

But he had little chance when you've got deluded views floating around like this:

https://twitter.com/davidmooregb/status/1111780153540206594

I'm tempted to wonder if these folks who are cosplaying as Winston Churchill circa 1940 will feel it was all worth it if/when the UK disintegrates, but of course should it happen they'd never blame themselves but find some other convenient scapegoat.

Professor Moriarty

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Grieve was one of the few Tories I had time for. A politician that put his country before his party and personal prospects. I think history will be kinder on him than on some of the other charlatans in his party.

But he had little chance when you've got deluded views floating around like this:

https://twitter.com/davidmooregb/status/1111780153540206594

I'm tempted to wonder if these folks who are cosplaying as Winston Churchill circa 1940 will feel it was all worth it if/when the UK disintegrates, but of course should it happen they'd never blame themselves but find some other convenient scapegoat.

Brilliant analogy. Calls to mind a certain Old Etonian wannabe. Has all the attributes except for Churchill's wit and intelligence.

Capt'n Midnight

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'm tempted to wonder if these folks who are cosplaying as Winston Churchill circa 1940 will feel it was all worth it if/when the UK disintegrates, but of course should it happen they'd never blame themselves but find some other convenient scapegoat.

Churchill was all for Europe

Back in the real 1940, immigrants did a lot of the heavy lifting in the Battle of Britain. There's a huge disconnect between reality and perception.

The UK was bankrupted by WWII. The US gave them a loan, but shafted them on the value of sterling adding 30% to the loan a few years later. UK trade with the Commonwealth has diminished over the years as countries got independence and could make their own trade deals. Even with the drop in sterling exports to the Commonwealth haven't gone up.

The UK won't become a bigger trading economy anytime soon. The reduced state of manufacturing industry should have been a clue there. And much of it is foreign owned. A satellite company is the latest to be snapped up because the fall in sterling makes them cheaper for those with dollars or euros.


This one never gets old. BNP proudly displaying a Spitfire belong to a Polish squadron. 1940 wasn't as many portray it.
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/03/03/article-0-03BAE3B3000005DC-255_468x351.jpg

briany

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Grieve was one of the few Tories I had time for. A politician that put his country before his party and personal prospects. I think history will be kinder on him than on some of the other charlatans in his party.

But he had little chance when you've got deluded views floating around like this:

https://twitter.com/davidmooregb/status/1111780153540206594

I'm tempted to wonder if these folks who are cosplaying as Winston Churchill circa 1940 will feel it was all worth it if/when the UK disintegrates, but of course should it happen they'd never blame themselves but find some other convenient scapegoat.

The British have no business comparing aspects of Brexit or the EU to WWII. Barely any of them banging on about it were alive when it was happening. Their experience of it is completely through rose-tinted lenses. Many people died, cities in Britain were flattened, and it left the country in dire financial straits. There should be no appetite to go back to anything comparable, and certainly not completely voluntarily.

Infini

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Jeremy has done ok. He’s brought the Labour Party into a second referendum stance which would have been impossible 2 years ago. And to be fair to the DUP they are politicians of principle, even if you don’t like their principles.

He could've done far better but even during the Brexit referendum his participation was basically not there. If you want the top job you have to give it your all not sit back and let the place burn down. As for the DUP while you might point them as politicians of principal but they've got cronyism and corruption all over them not to mention incompetence. Hardly principal when they do everything to undermine their union by being utterly braindead in their approach.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Lies yes. Stuff you disagree with, perhaps not. Funny enough what you feel about with regards to Corbyn is exactly the kind of thing the media manipulates.

If one is voicing an opinion (piece) that's one thing. "Enemies of the People", "one last chance" and the like of publishing opinions as though they're facts and poisoning the well is another. When the line crosses from divergent view to provocative deceitful bullshít that's not me disagreeing that's calling it as it is. When argument's are made that have no factual basis or the information has been twisted with provocative wording thats no longer a newspaper its a propaganda rag.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

They voted (in a binding referendum) against a more proportional system a few years back. If anything was keeping extremists out of UK politics it’s their FPTP system. Be careful what you wish for.

Their system isn't keeping out extremists because instead they've infiltrated the main parties (in this case the tories) and because the system is basically a duopoly between Labour/Tories with most of the stupity infecting the Tories we now got a paralysed system because the headbanger idiots have far more disproportionate power than they should.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The DUP will get the same vote as always.

That ultimately depends on their financial backing. They've deliberately crossed the farming and buisness communities and have not given a damn about their concerns. "Send em to the chippy". That's their attitude to government. I doubt they'll get the same vote if a concentrated effort is mounted against their toxic carryon expecially with those 2 communities alienated.

Lucy8080

The D.U.P. turned down the golden gift on offer in the negotiations. N.I. could have become a UK/E.U. economic powerhouse.

Their myopic vision saw it as a weakening of the Union. They reverted to type.. "No,No,No...never."

What soft nationalist would vote for a united Ireland when N.I. is having it's own tiger?

The economic lift to places like the Shankill/Falls,Portadown etc...jesus wept!

Now Nigel Dodds has told the world he doesn't mind the E.U. so much!

Before the" Leave Referendum" I was on a tube in London reading the METRO ( a free paper at all underground/overground stations).

It had an outside 4 page advert telling Londoners to vote Leave. The small print showed it was paid for by the D.U.P. ( but Nigel doesn't mind staying).

I think a no deal Brexit has narrowed it's odds on happening today .It has become more possible i.m.o.

"Mainland British politics" is faced with the fiscal nightmare of no deal versus the political nightmare of an unsatisfactory Brexit.

T.I.G. is a new party on the scene.

Farrage is talking up a Brexit party.

UkIP seem to be hinting at Tommy Robinson standing for election.

A lot of Tories and Labour M.P.s are standing in Leave constituencies.Labour have a real problem here.

Interesting times.

Trillions in assets moving to Belfast. GB totally reliant on NI for financial access to the EU. A booming economy. Strongest union ever.

Fools.

prinzeugen

It is interesting times. I predict that there will be a general election and it will be the death of the Labour party (unless they use voter fraud like last time).

Landslide for the Conservatives or UKIP. The SNP and Labour will be wiped out in Westminster.

And No deal exit. To be replaced by a deal 9 days later.. By the EU begging for something!

The EU is the problem!

prinzeugen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Trillions in assets moving to Belfast. GB totally reliant on NI for financial access to the EU. A booming economy. Strongest union ever.

Fools.

Proof?

Lucy8080

prinzeugen wrote: »

It is interesting times. I predict that there will be a general election and it will be the death of the Labour party (unless they use voter fraud like last time).

Landslide for the Conservatives or UKIP. The SNP and Labour will be wiped out in Westminster.

And No deal exit. To be replaced by a deal 9 days later.. By the EU begging for something!

The EU is the problem!

Some Labour constituencies are vulnerable to well placed right of centre (brexit only stand) candidates.

I'll thank your post and the previous post because I think they are replying to me, ( sometimes I miss posts replying to me, no offence anyone).

prinzeugen

prinzeugen wrote: »

Proof?

In what world could I provide proof of something that wasn't allowed to happen?

"He'd have been richer if he'd collected his lottery win."
"Proof?"

Cookie_Monster

prinzeugen wrote: »

By the EU begging for something!

why would the EU be begging for a deal? The UK provides nothing that cannot be sourced elsewhere and doesn't buy enough of any particular thing to actually matter on a continent wide scale

prinzeugen wrote: »

The EU is the problem!

how so?

Just saw that the withdrawal agreement got more support from MPs than any of the eight options that were voted down.

Possibly a stupid question but is there a process whereby out of many options, the one with the most votes wins, instead of a single motion requiring a majority?

RobertKK

Deleted User wrote: »

Just saw that the withdrawal agreement got more support from MPs than any of the eight options that were voted down.

Possibly a stupid question but is there a process whereby out of many options, the one with the most votes wins, instead of a single motion requiring a majority?

Cabinet ministers all abstained on voting for the various options the other day so that would have helped the withdrawal agreement to get more votes.

AllForIt

devnull wrote: »

No, they didn't and they don't, and I've explained this earlier.

The argument that leaving and agreeing certain other terms and deals with the EU is not Brexit and therefore democracy is dead is utterly flawed, because the ballot paper didn't ask that kind of question. If they want to ask that question, they should lobby for a referendum doing exactly that.

The document written as a result of the Referendum Act 2015, Free Movement, Customs Union, in fact a whole range of options were marked as possible outcomes if the UK voted to no longer be a member of the European Union. Therefore to go for one of these outcomes would be consistent with the referendum text.

Being a member of the European Union is a black and white question. You either revoke Article 50 and you are a member or anything else is not a member. Trying to suggest otherwise is a deliberate misinterpretation of the referendum text and making a presumption and is anything but democratic.

The referendum text asked a simple question and the responses were simple answers. The referendum tells you about these things, it doesn't tell you any more than that and anything else is presumptions being made by people who have agendas and are twisting things for their own means.

Well this is total nonsense. Do you seriously think the working class ppl of Britain would agree with your interpretation of the Brexit referendum.

You talk like an experienced high powered lawyer.

I followed the Brexit campaign avidly and I was in no doubt whatsoever that leave would win. I was actually surprised that the margin was so small.

The ppl who voted yes, I have no doubt in my mind, wished for a complete and utter disengagement with everything to do with the European Union. Everything. The common agricultural policy etc etc. A start again approach.

If you don't understand this then you seriously haven't been paying attention.

RobMc59

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just saw that the withdrawal agreement got more support from MPs than any of the eight options that were voted down.

Possibly a stupid question but is there a process whereby out of many options, the one with the most votes wins, instead of a single motion requiring a majority?

The WA was mooted last night as a possible option in tandem with a referendum choice.

Irish Praetorian

AllForIt wrote: »

Well this is total nonsense. Do you seriously think the working class ppl of Britain would agree with your interpretation of the Brexit referendum.

You talk like an experienced high powered lawyer.

I followed the Brexit campaign avidly and I was in no doubt whatsoever that leave would win. I was actually surprised that the margin was so small.

The ppl who voted yes, I have no doubt in my mind, wished for a complete and utter disengagement with everything to do with the European Union. Everything. The common agricultural policy etc etc. A start again approach.

If you don't understand this then you seriously haven't been paying attention.

I cant really speak for the working class but Im not particularly convinced by anyone who wants to offer a single explanation as to while 17 odd million people voted for something. People want and do different things and they do so for any number of reasons. The attempt by pundits to try and retcon the leave vote as a lock step desire for a no deal relationship with Europe and the attendant turmoil that entails, just doesnt have any substance to it.

Like you I had the sense that leave would win in 2016, but looking back at it why wouldnt they have? The leave campaign could offer the voters everything from a protest vote, an anti immigrant vote, a vote venting long established anti EU 'sentiment' whilst simultaneously offering a vision of the future where Britain could get whatever it wanted, needing only to ask. Meanwhile the remain vote had to carry the cross of reality, peoples actual real experiences of life and the track record of history. You could make the argument that there was a genuine libertarian reason to vote brexit but im not sure how much of the vote that issue commanded. A simple matchup of fantasy and reality, hardly surprising fantasy won.

AllForIt

I have to say also I think today is the worst day for democracy in my living memory. The fact that after 2 years since the UK public decided to leave the EU there is no prospect of that happening anytime soon.

This has come about imo by ppl who desire to undo Brexit. By a snobbish upper class of ppl who care more about their personal wealth than the country they live in.

It really is quite revolting to see what's going on.

Calina

There is no way the UK population who voted in favour of EU exit understood the practical realities of leaving. They did not know that three years down the line they would be talking about stockpiling medicines or dealing with food shortages. They did not know or want to accept customs checks would turn Kent into a giant lorry park. They did not know or want to accept that the long term impact would be to lose manufacturing jobs in key industries over time. They did not see chunks of their main sources of taxes, ie the financial services industry would move to other EU states.

They may have wanted a fresh start but no one mentioned the sacrifices. I am not surprised Brexit won at the time but their media and their politicians brought that about.

I guarantee you if the Brexit campaigners had talked about medecine and food shortages as a necessary part of the sacrifice at the time, Brexit would not have won.

Calina

AllForIt wrote: »

I have to say also I think today is the worst day for democracy in my living memory. The fact that after 2 years since the UK public decided to leave the EU there is no prospect of that happening anytime soon.

This has come about imo by ppl who desire to undo Brexit. By a snobbish upper class of ppl who care more about their personal wealth than the country they live in.

It really is quite revolting to see what's going on.

The people pushing Brexit are high powered wealthy people like Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg, Tim Weatherspoon. They are the very epitome of the people you appear to think you despise.

The worst day for democracy was the decision to run a referendum with maximum incompetency. We are looking at the fall out from that.

Lucy8080

AllForIt wrote: »

I have to say also I think today is the worst day for democracy in my living memory. The fact that after 2 years since the UK public decided to leave the EU there is no prospect of that happening anytime soon.

This has come about imo by ppl who desire to undo Brexit. By a snobbish upper class of ppl who care more about their personal wealth than the country they live in.

It really is quite revolting to see what's going on.

You should check out the Leave.Eu twitter page for the @Ianpaisleyuk speech at yesterdays rally in Parliament Square.

Highlights include him plamasing the crowd with thanks for standing by "ulster". Fcuk me, N.I. voted remain , the rest of Ulster didn't even know they were entitled to a vote.

I think Ian is having a mid-life crisis. If the crowd he was addressing knew of his record suspension from the house and dodgy expenses , as a starter for ten (never mind other mentionables), he may not have got off the stage in one piece.

I admire his hubris though!A real Democrat eh, speaking to others ( I imagine) who he feels a kindred spirit with. He even managed to throw in a Bible quote!

You could not write this stuff.

B.t.w.,yesterday, "Vote Leave" dropped it's appeal against The Electoral Commissions findings of multiple offences under electoral law,committed during the 2016 E.U. referendum campaign.

As one commentator hinted.." a good day to bury bad news".

lawred2

AllForIt wrote: »

I have to say also I think today is the worst day for democracy in my living memory. The fact that after 2 years since the UK public decided to leave the EU there is no prospect of that happening anytime soon.

This has come about imo by ppl who desire to undo Brexit. By a snobbish upper class of ppl who care more about their personal wealth than the country they live in.

It really is quite revolting to see what's going on.

Like the ERG?

Enzokk

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

At least he has his integrity.

And yet on many votes he went for party over his principles. I agree that I think he is one of the few principled Tory politicians, but he should have walked with Soubry if he was really concerned for the country.

prinzeugen wrote: »

It is interesting times. I predict that there will be a general election and it will be the death of the Labour party (unless they use voter fraud like last time).

Landslide for the Conservatives or UKIP. The SNP and Labour will be wiped out in Westminster.

And No deal exit. To be replaced by a deal 9 days later.. By the EU begging for something!

The EU is the problem!

This is where you fall down, I think the SNP will win most of their seats back in a new general election. This is because the Conservatives has allowed Brexit to happen when the country is overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU. The reason the Conservatives did well was Ruth Davidson but her party has been found out in Westminster as not acting on behalf of their voters and you know the SNP will show a history of votes to voters to try and won those votes.

As for the deal, I agree that there will be one a few days later but it will not be because of EU begging. It will be to keep the border open on NI and Ireland as per the GFA and obligations that the UK has. This has been true but a fact people still deny or ignore.

AllForIt wrote: »

Well this is total nonsense. Do you seriously think the working class ppl of Britain would agree with your interpretation of the Brexit referendum.

You talk like an experienced high powered lawyer.

I followed the Brexit campaign avidly and I was in no doubt whatsoever that leave would win. I was actually surprised that the margin was so small.

The ppl who voted yes, I have no doubt in my mind, wished for a complete and utter disengagement with everything to do with the European Union. Everything. The common agricultural policy etc etc. A start again approach.

If you don't understand this then you seriously haven't been paying attention.

I agree they want total disengagement with the EU, I just don't think they know the price for this and if they did know most would not be willing to pay it. If you have been lied to and told you can leave and have most of the benefits and very little pain you will think it is a good deal. This is not reality though.

AllForIt wrote: »

I have to say also I think today is the worst day for democracy in my living memory. The fact that after 2 years since the UK public decided to leave the EU there is no prospect of that happening anytime soon.

This has come about imo by ppl who desire to undo Brexit. By a snobbish upper class of ppl who care more about their personal wealth than the country they live in.

It really is quite revolting to see what's going on.

Nigel is your common man, with his minted EU pension and private flights. He is fighting for the man on the street, I am sure he has no interest in the wealth of his contacts he built up working as trader.

Someone like Jess Philipps who comes from the working class whose father is a teacher and mother worked for the NHS. She is the problem for trying to stop Brexit and not Farage or Johnson or JRM or Raab. Or Cameron or Osborne, those millionaires has the interest of the average person in the UK in mind.

listermint

AllForIt wrote: »

I have to say also I think today is the worst day for democracy in my living memory. The fact that after 2 years since the UK public decided to leave the EU there is no prospect of that happening anytime soon.

This has come about imo by ppl who desire to undo Brexit. By a snobbish upper class of ppl who care more about their personal wealth than the country they live in.

It really is quite revolting to see what's going on.

Let me put this in terms that you may understand.

Leaving the EU was pushed by a tiny minority of Tory donors and insiders. People who have had a privileged up bringing, public school the works.

The same people who made massive bets on brexit. We're talking millions here , the same people who are against the EU offshore tax directives. The same people who funnel money on islands.

These people ,.these people pushed brexit through a dark money funded campaign and continue to push for no deal.

Why you ask.

Money.


That and they have houses in the South of France and monoco where they can piss off with their money anytime they choose.


To pretend there is an elite pushing the 'stay' mantra is to put it mildly 'trumpian'

Lucy8080

Deleted User wrote: »

Trillions in assets moving to Belfast. GB totally reliant on NI for financial access to the EU. A booming economy. Strongest union ever.

Fools.

The U.K., in the midst of this business uncertainty, is currently being classed as a "third country" business wise (not a great position for investment).

City of London companies are hedging by opening offices in Amsterdam. The Dutch are less than an hour from london, in the E.U. and most speak English. Lloyds are just one company( among many) who have taken this precaution.

N.I. could have had a foot in the E.U and U.K. ,everyone speaks English and Amsterdam would not have got a look in(being E.U. only).

The D.U.P. killed that golden egg laying goose. I doubt they expected Brexit to win but....

Their inability to bag an unexpected bonanza( when it presented itself) is damning.

Leroy42

IDS said yesterday that he believes that any deal can be ripped up anytime.

And of course this is true, but mostly countries want to adhere to agreements or negotiate new ones but try to avoid simply ripping them up.

But what it shows is that the EU would be foolish to grant further extensions. It's been 3 years since the vote, 2 since A50. And at no time has the UK shown it is willing to work with the EU.

I get that it is damage limitation, but sometimes one needs to accept the reality, the UK is in chaos and will be for some time. They want out, and at this stage I feel they need to be out. If they don't they will forever lament that they didn't.

The likely next Tory leader will be even more wedded to exit that TM and as such things will only get worse for the EU.

prunudo

Farage preaching up on that stage reminded me of one of those travelling salesmen who go to diy shows selling the best knives in the world or every lasting drill bits. There's always a crowd lapping up their bullsh1t sales pitch but you just know that they're full of broken promises.

Also I believe that while the people at the march yesterday may not of known or understood what they were voting for, the reality is they don't care about the consequences of leaving. You could spell out the pit falls of Brexit till the cows come home but they'll keep shouting rule Britannia and down with the EU while looking forward to their cheap holiday to the Spanish Costa's.

road_high

It’s an ideology, a cult. Not anything based on logic or rules. You’re supposed to “believe in Britain” as if that’ll be enough to over ride any slight drawbacks

judeboy101

Dominic Grieve lost a vote of confidence by his local conservative assoc last night. Next stage is de-seelection. Campaign against him was organised by ex ukip turned Tory .

A Dub in Glasgo

prinzeugen wrote: »

The SNP will be wiped out in Westminster.

You have clearly misread any poll in Scotland (actually doubtful you have seen any poll in Scotland) if you think that