Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

force eleven

Calina wrote: »

The people pushing Brexit are high powered wealthy people like Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg, Tim Weatherspoon. They are the very epitome of the people you appear to think you despise.

The worst day for democracy was the decision to run a referendum with maximum incompetency. We are looking at the fall out from that.

Democracy is accepting the decision of the majority. In its simplest form. Clearly, in this case, democracy has been subverted, by the EU and its supporters in, shall we say, high places. The EU never accepts decisions against it, and we know this ourselves too well. I hope a proper solution is found, I believe it will, and it will involve UK leaving the EU. All the scaremongering about economic and social collapse will be proven to be just that, and life will go on.

coastwatch

AllForIt wrote: »

Well this is total nonsense. Do you seriously think the working class ppl of Britain would agree with your interpretation of the Brexit referendum.

You talk like an experienced high powered lawyer.

I followed the Brexit campaign avidly and I was in no doubt whatsoever that leave would win. I was actually surprised that the margin was so small.

The ppl who voted yes, I have no doubt in my mind, wished for a complete and utter disengagement with everything to do with the European Union. Everything. The common agricultural policy etc etc. A start again approach.

If you don't understand this then you seriously haven't been paying attention.

In spite of the enormous political mess that Brexit has created for the UK and the EU, I think it's some consolation that a majority in the HoC are opposed to a No Deal Brexit, now that they have had two years to understand the full implications. So some sense prevails.

It was criminally irresponsible of David Cameron to have gone with a simple Remain / Leave referendum on such a complex issue. There again, maybe he assumed that including more Leave options, would make it all just too complicated for the people. Maybe he was right.


Democracy is too important to leave up to the votes of the people.

Henry A. Kissinger

blackcard

April 1st 2029. Meaningful vote number 538 has been defeated by a margin of 50 votes. Commentators say that Teresa May will be lucky to survive as Prime Minister for another week. She states that she will continue to plan for an orderly Brexit. Boris Johnson tells her to go back to Brussels to renegotiate the backstop. "The EU needs us more than we need them" Sammy Wilson attacks the Irish government as belligerent and for saying no to every proposal. Groundhog day

Zubeneschamali

Leroy42 wrote: »

I get that it is damage limitation, but sometimes one needs to accept the reality, the UK is in chaos and will be for some time. They want out, and at this stage I feel they need to be out. If they don't they will forever lament that they didn't.

You say you get that it is damage limitation, but it isn't. It is damage elimination. There is zero damage, zero downside for the EU in having the UK remain. Brexit is lose lose, the EU loses, especially Ireland, and the UK loses more.

If the only price is some lamenting by English nationalists, I say lament away!

Igotadose

force eleven wrote: »

Democracy is accepting the decision of the majority. In its simplest form. Clearly, in this case, democracy has been subverted, by the EU and its supporters in, shall we say, high places. The EU never accepts decisions against it, and we know this ourselves too well. I hope a proper solution is found, I believe it will, and it will involve UK leaving the EU. All the scaremongering about economic and social collapse will be proven to be just that, and life will go on.

So, two wolves & 1 sheep voting on what's for dinner is democracy? Or, a more timely example, the electoral college governs US presidential elections is not democratic because the majority can vote for someone who doesn't become President?

The EU never takes decisions against itself? Seriously? You don't mean Ireland's votes on the Lisbon treaty by any misunderstanding, do you?

Basically, what you're preaching here, is religion. Facts (trillions moving already from the UK, many many examples of business leaving, people leaving) don't matter. It will all be fine. Keep calm and carry on, but do what I want you to do. Millions signing a petition - undemocratic.

Sad thing is none of this is new and is the best the Brexiteers can come up with. Give us something new here, like, I don't know, a tangible benefit from the UK being outside the EU. Specific though - based on a withdrawal agreement, i.e., unicorns don't count. Specify how the UK exited and what the result would be, and by when. Thanks.

A Dub in Glasgo

force eleven wrote: »

Democracy is accepting the decision of the majority. In its simplest form. Clearly, in this case, democracy has been subverted.

Interestingly, the 'will of the people' would have been declared null and void if the referendum was binding because the winning side broke laws therefore it was a flawed referendum and democracy is not about accepting results in those situations. The only reason the referendum was not delcared null and void is the fact that it was only an advisory referendum

fash

force eleven wrote: »

Democracy is accepting the decision of the majority. In its simplest form. Clearly, in this case, democracy has been subverted, by the EU and its supporters in, shall we say, high places. The EU never accepts decisions against it, and we know this ourselves too well. I hope a proper solution is found, I believe it will, and it will involve UK leaving the EU. All the scaremongering about economic and social collapse will be proven to be just that, and life will go on.

So what you are saying is that Ireland and the EU should accept a hard border in NI, the return of British soldiers, the inevitable collapse of the good Friday agreement and the inevitable murder by British soldiers of more Irish people - just so that Jacob Rees Mogg can make a few million by impoverishing large parts of the UK?

Sorry but I do not accept that - either the UK accepts the backstop - or they can go f**k themselves.

As regards "the will of the majority", the majority of the UK wants to remain in the EU.
Three majority of the UK voted overwhelmingly for EU membership in the 1970's and for almost all of the 40 years membership the majority (except for one brief instance where influenced by illegal campaigns and obvious and deliberate lies) have wanted EU membership.
The overwhelming majority hates every particular form of brexit.
The majority of NI and Scotland both voted to remain in.
The majority in NI wants a backstop.


So why don't you accept the will of the majority? Are you a traitor to or enemy of the British people? For shame, for shame.

elvis83

Frustrating interview with Brendan O'Neill on The Stand podcast. It's actually shocking how dismissive these brexiteers are of the potential threat to peace on this island.

They really are living in a different, made-up world. And the worst thing is they'll never have to answer for their crimes.

judeboy101

fash wrote: »

So what you are saying is that Ireland and the EU should accept a hard border in NI, the return of British soldiers, the inevitable collapse of the good Friday agreement and the inevitable murder by British soldiers of more Irish people - just so that Jacob Rees Mogg can make a few million by impoverishing large parts of the UK?

Sorry but I do not accept that - either the UK accepts the backstop - or they can go f**k themselves.

As regards "the will of the majority", the majority of the UK wants to remain in the EU.
Three majority of the UK voted overwhelmingly for EU membership in the 1970's and for almost all of the 40 years membership the majority (except for one brief instance where influenced by illegal campaigns and obvious and deliberate lies) have wanted EU membership.
The overwhelming majority hates every particular form of brexit.
The majority of NI and Scotland both voted to remain in.
The majority in NI wants a backstop.


So why don't you accept the will of the majority? Are you a traitor to or enemy of the British people? For shame, for shame.

The UK never held a referendum where the choice was join or not join, they have had 2 again where the choice was leave or stay. The brits were forced into eec by parliament.let them leave and let them choose to join.

road_high

judeboy101 wrote: »

The UK never held a referendum where the choice was join or not join, they have had 2 again where the choice was leave or stay. The brits were forced into eec by parliament.let them leave and let them choose to join.

I don’t think if they leave in an orderly fashion too many in the Eu will be very eager to have them rejoin after the past few years goings on...

fash

judeboy101 wrote: »

The UK never held a referendum where the choice was join or not join, they have had 2 again where the choice was leave or stay. The brits were forced into eec by parliament.let them leave and let them choose to join.

I never said they were- I specifically said they voted for EU membership - not to join. ( And they voted convincingly for that). Furthermore, the UK is parliamentary democracy - where the political system has exceptional difficulty understanding and working with the concept of referenda - as seen inter alia from the Brexit fiasco

FrancieBrady

AllForIt wrote: »

I have to say also I think today is the worst day for democracy in my living memory. The fact that after 2 years since the UK public decided to leave the EU there is no prospect of that happening anytime soon.

This has come about imo by ppl who desire to undo Brexit. By a snobbish upper class of ppl who care more about their personal wealth than the country they live in.

It really is quite revolting to see what's going on.

That is just wrong.

You are placing responsibility for this not happening on some nebulous force. No one single person or group STOPPED Brexit happening
Holding a non binding Referendum in a monarchy is the problem.

There is an onus on the electorate to know that this could happen too, it isn't all that surprising.

An Ciarraioch

Tony Connelly has an excellent article on how a hard Border could potentially be avoided even in a no-deal Brexit - a mixture of measures including filling out customs procedures online, factory and shop checks on produce, and companies undertaking measures as part of a "transit" process:

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2019/0330/1039471-brexit-no-deal-tony-connelly/

Akrasia

AllForIt wrote: »

I have to say also I think today is the worst day for democracy in my living memory. The fact that after 2 years since the UK public decided to leave the EU there is no prospect of that happening anytime soon.

This has come about imo by ppl who desire to undo Brexit. By a snobbish upper class of ppl who care more about their personal wealth than the country they live in.

It really is quite revolting to see what's going on.

What do you think democracy means?

Rick and Morty are a comedy Sci Fi cartoon, which sounds off topic, but they have an episode where Rick invents a machine that creates a wish fulfilling slave creature called Mr Meeseeks. Mr Meeseeks will stop at nothing to carry out your one and only wish which can not be cancelled or changed.

The wish goes badly wrong and ends up almost killing the person who wished it, all because it was a poorly thought out choice that was forced to be implemented.

Democracy is about giving people the power to make decisions that affect them. Either through direct democracy, or representatives.one of tge central principles of democracy is accountability. If the representatives go beyond their mandate, the people have the right to hold them to account. Democracy not about giving 'the people' a single choice one time and then blindly following it regardless of the consequences. Over simplifying 'the will of the people' is stupid and dangerous and can lead to demagogues taking control by pretending to speak for 'the people' when they're just seizing power for themselves

Itssoeasy

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Itssoeasy wrote: »

So if everything had worked out rightly the UK would have left the EU 29 minutes ago.

No, it hasn’t been today for a few weeks. There’s a extension until April if no deal happened today (and until May if a deal was agreed).

Monday is therefore very important.

Yea I know but if you read my post I say “if everything had worked out rightly” meaning had the WA been voted through first time it would have been yesterday.

Hurrache

You couldn't make it up. His constituency was mostly remain too.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1111912246337245185?s=19

Christy42

force eleven wrote: »

Calina wrote: »

The people pushing Brexit are high powered wealthy people like Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg, Tim Weatherspoon. They are the very epitome of the people you appear to think you despise.

The worst day for democracy was the decision to run a referendum with maximum incompetency. We are looking at the fall out from that.

Democracy is accepting the decision of the majority. In its simplest form. Clearly, in this case, democracy has been subverted, by the EU and its supporters in, shall we say, high places. The EU never accepts decisions against it, and we know this ourselves too well. I hope a proper solution is found, I believe it will, and it will involve UK leaving the EU. All the scaremongering about economic and social collapse will be proven to be just that, and life will go on.

The UK could leave today if it wished. The EU has done nothing to stop it. I don't get how people try and blame it in these cases.

If you want to be gone blame Parliament but blaming the EU for the UK's own issues is just ridiculous.

They want to get away from having decisions made in the EU but want the EU to tell them how to do that.

Enzokk

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Tony Connelly has an excellent article on how a hard Border could potentially be avoided even in a no-deal Brexit - a mixture of measures including filling out customs procedures online, factory and shop checks on produce, and companies undertaking measures as part of a "transit" process:

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2019/0330/1039471-brexit-no-deal-tony-connelly/

The interesting thing here is that there will not be a hard border on day one of the crash out. Because it takes warnings and time for it to be implemented it will give us time to work out what will happen, while we are not doing much now (appearing not to do much). In that time you would hope the UK agrees a deal with the EU on NI and keeping the border open before the real tough decisions will have to be made, putting up the border that is.

FrancieBrady

Akrasia wrote: »

What do you think democracy means?

Rick and Morty are a comedy Sci Fi cartoon, which sounds off topic, but they have an episode where Rick invents a machine that creates a wish fulfilling slave creature called Mr Meeseeks. Mr Meeseeks will stop at nothing to carry out your one and only wish which can not be cancelled or changed.

The wish goes badly wrong and ends up almost killing the person who wished it, all because it was a poorly thought out choice that was forced to be implemented.

Democracy is about giving people the power to make decisions that affect them. Either through direct democracy, or representatives.one of tge central principles of democracy is accountability. If the representatives go beyond their mandate, the people have the right to hold them to account. Democracy not about giving 'the people' a single choice one time and then blindly following it regardless of the consequences. Over simplifying 'the will of the people' is stupid and dangerous and can lead to demagogues taking control by pretending to speak for 'the people' when they're just seizing power for themselves

The concept of the UK itself and the devolved governments is causing problems here too.
You have one political party, claiming they are acting on the democratic wishes of the whole, while other political parties claim the decisions are going against the democratic wishes of their 'separate electorate'.

recipe for disaster tbh. Which is what came out of the oven.

Professor Moriarty

Hurrache wrote: »

You couldn't make it up. His constituency was mostly remain too.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1111912246337245185?s=19

The infiltration of the Tory party by UKIP is a positive development. They'll push the party further to the right while One Nation Tories will leave to form a centre right party. Thus, the likes of Boris and Jacob will be where they always should have been, in a minority party on the fringes of parliament.

woohoo!!!

Superb insight into how prepared the EU are and leaves one in no doubt that the EU will stick to their rules of engagement. A long read but well worth it.

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-uk-lost-brexit-eu-negotiation/

force eleven

Igotadose wrote: »

So, two wolves & 1 sheep voting on what's for dinner is democracy? Or, a more timely example, the electoral college governs US presidential elections is not democratic because the majority can vote for someone who doesn't become President?

The EU never takes decisions against itself? Seriously? You don't mean Ireland's votes on the Lisbon treaty by any misunderstanding, do you?

Basically, what you're preaching here, is religion. Facts (trillions moving already from the UK, many many examples of business leaving, people leaving) don't matter. It will all be fine. Keep calm and carry on, but do what I want you to do. Millions signing a petition - undemocratic.

Sad thing is none of this is new and is the best the Brexiteers can come up with. Give us something new here, like, I don't know, a tangible benefit from the UK being outside the EU. Specific though - based on a withdrawal agreement, i.e., unicorns don't count. Specify how the UK exited and what the result would be, and by when. Thanks.

Basically what you are saying is every referendum is meaningless. Why bother? The EU has leeched billions from Ireland, for no good reason but to save its undemocratic skin. The UK was damn right to vote out, but it's mistake was the establishment refusing to believe it would happen. Cameron can take the blame for that. Ireland should be able to deal directly with the UK on all matters relating to Brexit, from day one, instead it had to hide behind the apron of Merkel et al, with Varadkar and Coveney rabbiting on about the consequences and how bold the UK people were, putting us in this position. Brexit will be good for Ireland but it's a shame the establishment here ignores the possibilities.

FrancieBrady

force eleven wrote: »

Basically what you are saying is every referendum is meaningless. Why bother? The EU has leeched billions from Ireland, for no good reason but to save its undemocratic skin. The UK was damn right to vote out, but it's mistake was the establishment refusing to believe it would happen. Cameron can take the blame for that. Ireland should be able to deal directly with the UK on all matters relating to Brexit, from day one, instead it had to hide behind the apron of Merkel et al, with Varadkar and Coveney rabbiting on about the consequences and how bold the UK people were, putting us in this position. Brexit will be good for Ireland but it's a shame the establishment here ignores the possibilities.

What are the 'possibilities'?

Putting more of our eggs in one basket? That doesn't make any sense from an economic security point of view.

Shelga

Hurrache wrote: »

You couldn't make it up. His constituency was mostly remain too.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1111912246337245185?s=19

Perfect snapshot of how traditional Tories are being pushed aside by the extreme right wing in the form of UKIP. Anna Soubry was right when she said the Tories are now being run by the ERG-types.

Hopefully, long term, this leads to badly-needed electoral reform in the UK, but for now I think it’s very sad and worrying. Dominic Grieve has been an MP for Beaconsfield for 22 years, and now he’s being stabbed in the back by this UKIP ingrate.

Wasn’t it Dominic Grieve who was also responsible for parliament having a meaningful vote on the government’s Brexit deal, despite the government opposing the motion? I think this is sometimes incorrectly attributed to Gina Miller.

Brexit is a cancer on the UK.

ancapailldorcha

Posts deleted and sanctioned. Constructive posts only please.

Professor Moriarty

force eleven wrote: »

Basically what you are saying is every referendum is meaningless. Why bother? The EU has leeched billions from Ireland, for no good reason but to save its undemocratic skin. The UK was damn right to vote out, but it's mistake was the establishment refusing to believe it would happen. Cameron can take the blame for that. Ireland should be able to deal directly with the UK on all matters relating to Brexit, from day one, instead it had to hide behind the apron of Merkel et al, with Varadkar and Coveney rabbiting on about the consequences and how bold the UK people were, putting us in this position. Brexit will be good for Ireland but it's a shame the establishment here ignores the possibilities.

Nope. The EU has been hugely positive for Ireland economically and socially. Brexit will be bad for Ireland economically and socially. Apart from that, you're right.

fash

force eleven wrote: »

Basically what you are saying is every referendum is meaningless. Why bother? The EU has leeched billions from Ireland, for no good reason but to save its undemocratic skin. .

"Undemocratic" - it us far more democratic than the primitive "democracy" that the UK has.

As regards the costs of EU membership, it is not even a fraction of the benefits Ireland has achieved - nor compared to the trillions that England and UK have taken from Ireland in actual wealth and opportunity over its 850 year history of oppression.


.

he UK was damn right to vote out, but it's mistake was the establishment refusing to believe it would happen. Cameron can take the blame for that.

Ireland should be able to deal directly with the UK on all matters relating to Brexit, from day one, instead it had to hide behind the apron of Merkel et al, with Varadkar and Coveney rabbiting on about the consequences and how bold the UK people were, putting us in this position. Brexit will be good for Ireland but it's a shame the establishment here ignores the possibilities.

That is just what the UK wanted: to blackmail Ireland, to threaten to starve Ireland into submission and rain economic destruction down on Ireland if it didn't accept a few thousand more dead Irish as a price to pay for Brexit.

I agree that brexit will be good for Ireland in many ways - a no deal forcing the UK out will mean more economic independence for Ireland from the UK, will help bring about the end of the UK and leave Ireland as the main English speaking country in the EU.
From your post, it sounds like you are ignoring those benefits.

I see you haven't answered my post btw.

woohoo!!!

force eleven wrote: »

Igotadose wrote: »

So, two wolves & 1 sheep voting on what's for dinner is democracy? Or, a more timely example, the electoral college governs US presidential elections is not democratic because the majority can vote for someone who doesn't become President?

The EU never takes decisions against itself? Seriously? You don't mean Ireland's votes on the Lisbon treaty by any misunderstanding, do you?

Basically, what you're preaching here, is religion. Facts (trillions moving already from the UK, many many examples of business leaving, people leaving) don't matter. It will all be fine. Keep calm and carry on, but do what I want you to do. Millions signing a petition - undemocratic.

Sad thing is none of this is new and is the best the Brexiteers can come up with. Give us something new here, like, I don't know, a tangible benefit from the UK being outside the EU. Specific though - based on a withdrawal agreement, i.e., unicorns don't count. Specify how the UK exited and what the result would be, and by when. Thanks.

Basically what you are saying is every referendum is meaningless. Why bother? The EU has leeched billions from Ireland, for no good reason but to save its undemocratic skin. The UK was damn right to vote out, but it's mistake was the establishment refusing to believe it would happen. Cameron can take the blame for that. Ireland should be able to deal directly with the UK on all matters relating to Brexit, from day one, instead it had to hide behind the apron of Merkel et al, with Varadkar and Coveney rabbiting on about the consequences and how bold the UK people were, putting us in this position. Brexit will be good for Ireland but it's a shame the establishment here ignores the possibilities.

If the UK were leaving Ireland then it would wholly appropriate that there would be bilateral negotiations to try and make that go smoothly.

The UK did not vote to leave Ireland but the EU, so that is where negotiations must be. The vote leave campaign assumed that they could go straight into trade talks, wrongly as it very quickly turned out, and deliberately ignored A50. By being so deliberately vague there never was a definitive Brexit. The Brexit as expressed in no deal exit will see Scotland and NI leaving the union in time and rejoining the EU. So if you mean Brexit will be Good for us by reunification, then I concur.

Roger_007

force eleven wrote: »

Basically what you are saying is every referendum is meaningless. Why bother? The EU has leeched billions from Ireland, for no good reason but to save its undemocratic skin. The UK was damn right to vote out, but it's mistake was the establishment refusing to believe it would happen. Cameron can take the blame for that. Ireland should be able to deal directly with the UK on all matters relating to Brexit, from day one, instead it had to hide behind the apron of Merkel et al, with Varadkar and Coveney rabbiting on about the consequences and how bold the UK people were, putting us in this position. Brexit will be good for Ireland but it's a shame the establishment here ignores the possibilities.

"The EU has leeched billions from Ireland"..............
Really!
Ireland has been a net monetary beneficiary from the EU over the years. Ireland has also benefitted in many other ways. Membership of the EU has dragged us from being a priest-ridden social backwater into being a modern liberal democracy.
And who exactly are "the establishment "?. Would they, perchance, be the people that we freely elect to run the country. If we don't like them we can throw them out. If they don't perform and we don't throw them out, then it's our own fault.
Democracy does not guarantee a well run country. It merely facilitates it, provided the people make intelligent and well-informed decisions at the ballot box. The people we elect are an uncomfortably accurate reflection of society as a whole. If you want to see what Irish people are like, look at the Dail. It's not just part of what we are, it absolutely mirrors what we are.

RobMc59

fash wrote: »

"Undemocratic" - it us far more democratic than the primitive "democracy" that the UK has.

As regards the costs of EU membership, it is not even a fraction of the benefits Ireland has achieved - nor compared to the trillions that England and UK have taken from Ireland in actual wealth and opportunity over its 850 year history of oppression.


.
That is just what the UK wanted: to blackmail Ireland, to threaten to starve Ireland into submission and rain economic destruction down on Ireland if it didn't accept a few thousand more dead Irish as a price to pay for Brexit.

I agree that brexit will be good for Ireland in many ways - a no deal forcing the UK out will mean more economic independence for Ireland from the UK, will help bring about the end of the UK and leave Ireland as the main English speaking country in the EU.
From your post, it sounds like you are ignoring those benefits.

I see you haven't answered my post btw.

I can understand why you would want the best for Ireland but why would you want to see the end of the UK?