Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Kermit.de.frog

https://twitter.com/EuroGuido/status/1106946793097646081


It's a minor point but I also raised an eyebrow at that statement. Ireland is not a "State", it's supposed to be a sovereign country.

I wouldn't mind if he started acting more like the leader of a sovereign country rather than a mouthpiece for Brussels all the time. :rolleyes: He can do that and still protect Ireland's position.

Zubeneschamali

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Ireland is not a "State", it's supposed to be a sovereign country.

You might want to reread the constitution:

THE STATE

ARTICLE 4

The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.

ARTICLE 5

Ireland is a sovereign, independent, democratic state.

ARTICLE 6

1 All powers of government, legislative, executive and judicial, derive, under God, from the people, whose right it is to designate the rulers of the State and, in final appeal, to decide all questions of national policy, according to the requirements of the common good.

2 These powers of government are exercisable only by or on the authority of the organs of State established by this Constitution.

Enzokk

marno21 wrote: »

The responses to this and other of his Tweets are just downright bizarre coming from a neutral, non-UK point of view.

"You will lose your seat in the next election unless you do your utmost to push the policies that will do the most damage to the social and economic future of this country"

This is the problem when politicians sell leaving as the promised lands and they lambaste her deal as the worst ever. They probably knew they weren't going to vote to leave without a deal and was hoping for a some compromise from the EU that they would claim as a victory. They misjudged the negotiations and where and when those compromises would come. Now when they do the sensible thing and vote to leave with a deal it is a total betrayal, according to their own words.

All the talk about £39bn and how going on WTO would be fine, now they are showing themselves to be liars and charlatans and I predict that UKIP will take a lot of the Conservative votes in the next election if they do go for her deal. They have convinced a lot of people that leaving without a deal is not just the right thing to do but the only thing.

Working class heroes

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/EuroGuido/status/1106946793097646081


It's a minor point but I also raised an eyebrow at that statement. Ireland is not a "State", it's supposed to be a sovereign country.

I wouldn't mind if he started acting more like the leader of a sovereign country rather than a mouthpiece for Brussels all the time. :rolleyes: He can do that and still protect Ireland's position.

I’d say you are in a very small minority of people with that view. IMO.

Kermit.de.frog

Working class heroes wrote: »

I’d say you are in a very small minority of people with that view. IMO.

We are either an independent country or we are not.

If we are an independent country then he should be acting as the head of government for that sovereign country, not as rightly pointed out some regional state governor.

They can do that and it won't effect one iota our negotiating position.

My point is the government seem to be bending too far, in my opinion, in the direction of public subservience than they ought to.

Working class heroes

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We are either an independent country or we are not.

If we are an independent country then he should be acting as the head of government for that sovereign country, not as rightly pointed out some regional state governor.

They can do that and it won't effect one iota our negotiating position.

My point is the government seem to be bending too far, in my opinion, in the direction of public subservience than they ought to.

As rightly pointed out by who?

Kermit.de.frog

Working class heroes wrote: »

As rightly pointed out by who?

By observers in Britain as the tweet demonstrates.

They are right, though few here would admit it, that there is a fine line between the EU being useful and practical in these negotiations for Ireland and being detrimental and embarrassing.

I think we are verging in to the latter recently.

We don't have to have leaders sucking up this much to Brussels (and that's exactly what it is). It's not going to change the reality on the ground that Ireland is the EU member country and the UK is the country leaving.

Call me Al

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

A significant development, as the ERG MP, Daniel Kawczynski, announces he will vote for May's deal next week:

http://twitter.com/DKShrewsbury/status/1106902549397938176

In a different tweet BBCSunPolMidlands quotes Kawcznski' s change-of-vote statement talking about how the UK could now attract other unhappy EU member countries into developing a trading partnership alternative to the EU.

funkey_monkey

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

By observers in Britain as the tweet demonstrates.

Do you care what the Brits think?

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

By observers in Britain as the tweet demonstrates.

They are right, though few here would admit it, that there is a fine line between the EU being useful and practical in these negotiations for Ireland and being detrimental and embarrassing.

I think we are verging in to the latter recently.

We don't have to have leaders sucking up this much to Brussels (and that's exactly what it is). It's not going to change the reality on the ground that Ireland is the EU member country and the UK is the country leaving.

Get a hold of yourself. Ireland's interests are impacting all of Europe right now, and for such a tiny country, it's admirable our concerns are being heard and appreciated. Those countries will suffer because of this island by the looks of it.

Ireland is a sovereign country, whatever that means in the 21st century, I'm not sure. But we can do what we like. Our people are behind the EU, and with the UK openly disregarding the impact its actions could have on the Good Friday Agreement at the moment, we couldn't possibly dream of a better scenario to be in. 400m+ government's have our back.

Capt'n Midnight

Call me Al wrote: »

In a different tweet BBCSunPolMidlands quotes Kawcznski' s change-of-vote statement talking about how the UK could now attract other unhappy EU member countries into developing a trading partnership alternative to the EU.

So they'd build their own EFTA with coke and implement a ban on immigrants who'll do jobs the locals won't ?



And what happens if Turkey wants to join ?

It's got a higher population than the UK so would take a majority of any seats. Which is exactly why the UK can't join the EFTA.

Imreoir2

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We are either an independent country or we are not.

If we are an independent country then he should be acting as the head of government for that sovereign country, not as rightly pointed out some regional state governor.

They can do that and it won't effect one iota our negotiating position.

My point is the government seem to be bending too far, in my opinion, in the direction of public subservience than they ought to.

Since when has the Taoiseach been acting as a regional state governor? Does a play on words in a tweet, highlighting that in the US the regional administrative units are called states, whereas Ireland as an independant soverign country also referes to itself as a state, constitute not understanding the difference?

Seems like a rather foolish take if you ask me.

Junkyard Tom

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We are either an independent country or we are not.

We are not. No country in the world is independent. Not even North Korea is independent. We are interdependent.

The most powerful person in many countries is the US ambassador. **** that.

Imreoir2

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Since when has the Taoiseach been acting as a regional state governor? Does a play on words in a tweet, highlighting that in the US the regional administrative units are called states, whereas Ireland as an independant soverign country also referes to itself as a state, constitute not understanding the difference?

Seems like a rather foolish take if you ask me.

Ireland, as part of the EU has in reality only limited independence, similar to the states in the USA. The only main difference is that the EU's control over the European member states is not quite as comprehensive as the USA's control over the 50 states, and there is not (yet) a federal government in place.

Igotadose

Again, it's Saturday. Nothing new on Brexit today. 13 days left till crash out. Anyone aware of any activity in Parliament or elsewhere? Saw something on the BBC saying the DUP weren't happy still - so that counts, as no news. I'd expect the parliamentarians to be busily working away on...well...something.

If in the next 2 weeks some catastrophe (environmental, war, whatever), hits the UK and HMG are distracted, they'll still crash out, as far as I can tell.

How the streets around Parliament aren't swarming with protesters is beyond me. Nothing's happening, less than 2 weeks to go!

Junkyard Tom

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland, as part of the EU has in reality only limited independence.

Independence from who? The EU allows us to wield power much greater than we would have if we were 'independent'.

Our insistence that Britain honours its commitments on the backstop would have been ignored only for our leverage as an EU member state.

PeadarCo

Deleted User wrote:

Ireland, as part of the EU has in reality only limited independence, similar to the states in the USA. The only main difference is that the EU's control over the European member states is not quite as comprehensive as the USA's control over the 50 states, and there is not (yet) a federal government in place.

Ireland has complete independence. Ireland can always leave it the country decides to. Now obviously there are consequences as Brexit. Any extra delegation of power to the EU must be approved by the country.

PeadarCo

PeadarCo wrote: »

Ireland has complete independence. Ireland can always leave it the country decides to. Now obviously there are consequences as Brexit. Any extra delegation of power to the EU must be approved by the country.

The Brexit is going well isn't it, Do you think Ireland would get as easy a ride out the door?

Thargor

Deleted User wrote: »

The Brexit is going well isn't it, Do you think Ireland would get as easy a ride out the door?

What are you on about? If we wanted we could trigger article 50 and be gone, we're totally free to do that, any harm that comes from ripping up that many trade agreements and all the other systems laid down over the decades cant be blamed on the EU. Its also not a sign that we have "limited independence".

How do people even think like this?

PeadarCo

Deleted User wrote:

The Brexit is going well isn't it, Do you think Ireland would get as easy a ride out the door?

Ireland and any country can leave the EU whenever they want and there is absolutely nothing that stop the country in question. That's is indepence. Now there are consequences for leaving and the UK is slowly very late in the day beginning to understand them. However if the EU was this superstate that countries had to give up their independence to join leaving would be very hard/impossible. With the EU it's very very easy to leave, just trigger article 50 and after a maximum of 2 years you are out.

Robert McGrath

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Brexit is going well isn't it, Do you think Ireland would get as easy a ride out the door?

Just because the UK are making a complete balls of it doesn’t mean it’s not possible to leave the EU!

Tell me what the mechanism would be for Texas or California to secede from the USA?

Thargor

Thargor wrote: »

What are you on about? If we wanted we could trigger article 50 and be gone, we're totally free to do that, any harm that comes from ripping up that many trade agreements and all the other systems laid down over the decades cant be blamed on the EU. Its also not a sign that we have "limited independence".

How do people even think like this?

If the UK was not leaving, what would you do about the NI border?

With the UK already out, then it should be easier.

An Ciarraioch

Robert McGrath wrote: »

Just because the UK are making a complete balls of it doesn’t mean it’s not possible to leave the EU!

Tell me what the mechanism would be for Texas or California to secede from the USA?

It would appear to require the approval either of Congress or two-thirds of states:


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/27/so-you-want-to-secede-from-the-u-s-a-four-step-guide/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.78945c5efb51

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If the UK was not leaving, what would you do about the NI border?

With the UK already out, then it should be easier.

Mobile wouldn't allow me to view what your a moderator of but it's perplexing because your points today have been illegible.

I actually don't understand the position you are trying to take...

20silkcut

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Brexit is going well isn't it, Do you think Ireland would get as easy a ride out the door?

Brexit would have been very straightforward only for the border in Ireland.
If Ireland and Britain wanted to leave it would have been straightforward.


If Ireland wanted to leave and Britain stay in. How would that have panned out??? I wonder.

Probably pretty much the same way as the Lisbon treaty vote.

McGiver

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

It's got a higher population than the UK so would take a majority of any seats. Which is exactly why the UK can't join the EFTA.

There's no seats allocated by population in EFTA. They make decisions unanimously and each member has the same weight of the vote i.e. one vote each regardless of the population. Which means that UK's vote would have the same weight as the Iceland's with its population being equivalent that of Dorset(shire). That wouldn't surely go well with the English folks, Brexiteers and remainers alike. That's why UK can't join the EFTA.

Nody

listermint wrote: »

Mobile wouldn't allow me to view what your a moderator of but it's perplexing because your points today have been illegible.

Home Appliances as reference but as for any mod (inc. me) outside their specific forums they are simply a normal users with a bolded user name (in most cases); nothing more.

An Ciarraioch

DUP want a seat at the table in trade talks! Meanwhile, parties have been officially told to prepare for European elections:

http://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1107037319863980032

An Ciarraioch

http://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1107051005521420296

Nody

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

http://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1107051005521420296

Have to say I'm scratching my head on number 1; why would EU treat NI differently if UK is part of the same CU? I can't even figure out how or what they could do as most ideas I can come up with would be blatant WTO breaches.

Number 2; sure promise it away but next government is highly unlikely to be dependent on DUP so that's basically asking for something which they will never get in practice once it matters but I guess the two combined creates a nice ladder to climb down on for the third vote.