Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Capt'n Midnight

robindch wrote: »

Today, Farage started his 435-km (270m in miles sterling) "Brexit Betralay" walk from Sunderland to London in the wind, the rain, beside a cliff and with something between 65 and 70 people taking part.

....

But for clarity, Greg Jenner's tweet is going to be hard to beat:

twitter.com/greg_jenner/status/1106937127705677824

The Troll-Puddle Martyrs , oh that is just so good.



The view from Germany
https://www.dw.com/en/nigel-farage-leads-pro-brexit-march-to-london/a-47946402

A small group of Brexiteers are marching (and taking the bus) to London to voice their outrage at British lawmakers. Nigel Farage is leading the group but has admitted he'll only cover a third of the trek.

...
The location of the starting point had to be changed last minute for what organizers said were security reasons. The group was nonetheless met with pro-EU protesters, singing a song telling them where they could shove Brexit. The marchers responded by calling the counter-demonstrators "traitors" and losers."

Joe_ Public

Considering how critical a role the wording played in the referendum, worth up to 4 % points to leave depending on who you believe, there’s surely going to be the mother of all dogfights before the wording of a proposed second one could be agreed, assuming it was more than a straight yes or no to the pms deal. Love the idea of it, but it does bring some risks with it.

Leroy42

So what is the situation with no deal after last weeks vote? They have voted against no deal at any time, yet no deal remains on the statute. Surely following the vote the parliament now has to amend the Withdrawal Act to remove the option of No Deal.

And if they do, then doesn't that mean that they either have to accept TM deal or delay Brexit.

I know it was non-binding but AFAIK TM had stated she would abide by the votes. Seems to me that there was a no vote, but nothing actually changed

Water John

Govn't have said, if necessary as they get near withdrawal date and no decision, they will take action to ensure UK doesn't crash out, as per HOC vote.

I'm ok once crash out is off the table. The present scramble in Parliament doesn't over bother me once that is followed through on.

gooch2k9

Water John wrote: »

Govn't have said, if necessary as they get near withdrawal date and no decision, they will take action to ensure UK doesn't crash out, as per HOC vote.

I'm ok once crash out is off the table. The present scramble in Parliament doesn't over bother me once that is followed through on.

Any reason they can't implement it in law immediately? Colour me distrustful but this government have form for not living up to their promises.

Joe_ Public

Leroy42 wrote: »

So what is the situation with no deal after last weeks vote? They have voted against no deal at any time, yet no deal remains on the statute. Surely following the vote the parliament now has to amend the Withdrawal Act to remove the option of No Deal.

And if they do, then doesn't that mean that they either have to accept TM deal or delay Brexit.

I know it was non-binding but AFAIK TM had stated she would abide by the votes. Seems to me that there was a no vote, but nothing actually changed

You said it yourself: it was non binding. I guess just increases the moral pressure on the hoc not to succumb to no deal but you wouldn’t hang your hat on that. Same with the ind group amendment on second referendum last week. Just cos that went down in flames doesn’t mean it has gone away either.

Sam Russell

Joe_ Public wrote: »

You said it yourself: it was non binding. I guess just increases the moral pressure on the hoc not to succumb to no deal but you wouldn’t hang your hat on that. Same with the ind group amendment on second referendum last week. Just cos that went down in flames doesn’t mean it has gone away either.

As was the referendum that is causing all this nonsense. It is undemocratic to hold a second referendum, but it is democratic to put the same vote to the HoC multiple times when it has been defeated by the highest ever vote on a Gov motion.

ShooterSF

It would be nice if the EU only offered an extension in exchange for the UK giving up any right to unilaterally revoke article 50. There should be a cost to going back to being a participating member after the crap they've caused.

CelticRambler

ShooterSF wrote: »

It would be nice if the EU only offered an extension in exchange for the UK giving up any right to unilaterally revoke article 50. There should be a cost to going back to being a participating member after the crap they've caused.

I think the recently leaked EU document shows that they're way ahead of the UK in terms of forward planning and strategising for various worst-case scenarios.

Irishmale0399

Reports in the German press today that Nigel F is lobbying Italy to block the extension. German MEP seems to think the Italians may oblige.

Akrasia

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Reports in the German press today that Nigel F is lobbying Italy to block the extension. German MEP seems to think the Italians may oblige.

Definition of Treason according to the cambridge dictionary
"the crime of) showing no loyalty to your country, especially by helping its enemies or trying to defeat its government"
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/treason

The 5 star movement in Italy are aligned with Putin and Russia are international advisaries of the UK with fundamentally opposing interests.

Trying to lobby for your own governments requests to be vetoed internationally sounds like treason to me

Irishmale0399

Akrasia wrote: »

Definition of Treason according to the cambridge dictionary
"the crime of) showing no loyalty to your country, especially by helping its enemies or trying to defeat its government"
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/treason

The 5 star movement in Italy are aligned with Putin and Russia are international advisaries of the UK with fundamentally opposing interests.

Trying to lobby for your own governments requests to be vetoed internationally sounds like treason to me

If I am honest I couldnt care less what its called. At this moment in time all I can see are a group of clowns who are trying to line their own pockets in one way or another. Added to that the HoC couldnt manage to send everyone home drunk if they were to hold a meeting in a brewery with the taps running and glasses ready......they would end up fighting about how to hold the glass or look for straws....its a shambles and if anyone in the EU has balls they will send them packing before exposing us all to 2 years more of it.

Akrasia

Corbyn now saying that he wants there to be a 'credible choice referendum' whatever that means.

Is he going to try to put in some new unicorn deal that hasn't been negotiated and therefore doesn't exist onto a ballot paper?

What would his referendum look like? 4 options, May's deal, Corbyn's deal, No Deal and 'remain'?

By splitting the vote, by offering a very soft brexit option, he could split the remain vote and make Mays deal or No deal more likely to win...

Joe_ Public

Akrasia wrote: »

Definition of Treason according to the cambridge dictionary
"the crime of) showing no loyalty to your country, especially by helping its enemies or trying to defeat its government"
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/treason

The 5 star movement in Italy are aligned with Putin and Russia are international advisaries of the UK with fundamentally opposing interests.

Trying to lobby for your own governments requests to be vetoed internationally sounds like treason to me

Quite right. Is the tower still in business? Stop short of public execution on ppv tv, though, let’s not create a martyr!

Seriously though, what chance is there of the italians defying the other 26 on this? Would there not be consequences for them in that event, no deal would be horrendous for them surely? Could see them putting out the threat alright just for the heck of it, but seeing it through is another matter.

Akrasia

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

If I am honest I couldnt care less what its called. At this moment in time all I can see are a group of clowns who are trying to line their own pockets in one way or another. Added to that the HoC couldnt manage to send everyone home drunk if they were to hold a meeting in a brewery with the taps running and glasses ready......they would end up fighting about how to hold the glass or look for straws....its a shambles and if anyone in the EU has balls they will send them packing before exposing us all to 2 years more of it.

The UK has already voted to rule no deal. If the EU refuse to grant an extension or only grant one with conditions the HOC will not accept then the HOC may have no choice but to vote to withdraw A50 on 29th of March

Akrasia

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Quite right. Is the tower still in business? Stop short of public execution on ppv tv, though, let’s not create a martyr!

Seriously though, what chance is there of the italians defying the other 26 on this? Would there not be consequences for them in that event, no deal would be horrendous for them surely? Could see them putting out the threat alright just for the heck of it, but seeing it through is another matter.

There is such a short time available for negotiations, the Italians could just stall for time or push for conditions that they know the HOC won't accept and they could effectively veto the extension without calling it a veto

Capt'n Midnight

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

the HoC couldnt manage to send everyone home drunk if they were to hold a meeting in a brewery with the taps running and glasses ready......they would end up fighting about how to hold the glass or look for straws....its a shambles and if anyone in the EU has balls they will send them packing before exposing us all to 2 years more of it.

The thing is you can't hold a píss up in a brewery these days unless you have completed a full risk assessment, filled in the forms and gotten public liability insurance, organised sober attendants etc etc

Like Brexit it's not something you can do on the fly, it needs lots of preparation

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote: »

Definition of Treason according to the cambridge dictionary
"the crime of) showing no loyalty to your country, especially by helping its enemies or trying to defeat its government"
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/treason

The 5 star movement in Italy are aligned with Putin and Russia are international advisaries of the UK with fundamentally opposing interests.

Trying to lobby for your own governments requests to be vetoed internationally sounds like treason to me

Take the power back, by lobbying foreign governments to go against your own government. It's remarkable that it isn't being highlighted more.

ancapailldorcha

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Take the power back, by lobbying foreign governments to go against your own government. It's remarkable that it isn't being highlighted more.

I put that down to the tiny few men who own most of the British media being pro-Brexit.

Capt'n Midnight

Akrasia wrote: »

The UK has already voted to rule no deal. If the EU refuse to grant an extension or only grant one with conditions the HOC will not accept then the HOC may have no choice but to vote to withdraw A50 on 29th of March

JRM rubbed it in during the points of order after the vote.

It was non binding despite what a lot of the press said, which says a lot for the quality of reporting these days.

Roanmore

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1107214750532947968

Think Farage's credibility may be shot after this.

Irishmale0399

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The thing is you can't hold a píss up in a brewery these days unless you have completed a full risk assessment, filled in the forms and gotten public liability insurance, organised sober attendants etc etc

Like Brexit it's not something you can do on the fly, it needs lots of preparation

On the fly...they have had 2 years. Not our problem that May fcuked up.

Akrasia wrote: »

The UK has already voted to rule no deal. If the EU refuse to grant an extension or only grant one with conditions the HOC will not accept then the HOC may have no choice but to vote to withdraw A50 on 29th of March

They have voted in the HoC for a lot recently...


1. They dont want Mays deal
2. They dont want it again
3. They dont want to leave with the WA...(knowing the EU have made it clear..its Mays deal or no deal...)
4. They voted they dont want a hard Brexit.....


They are so arrogant that they dont realise its the WA or nothing....so accept it and get on with it. If not revoke A50 and get back to being a full member and stop crying.

ancapailldorcha

Roanmore wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1107214750532947968

Think Farage's credibility may be shot after this.

Nearly 10,000 times that number marched in London.

I mean, this is the Brextiers' man. They've lapped up his soundbytes and lies and now he can't be bothered to do his own march.

Roanmore

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Nearly 10,000 times that number marched in London.

I mean, this is the Brextiers' man. They've lapped up his soundbytes and lies and now he can't be bothered to do his own march.

There's another clip on Twitter by Led By Donkeys where the billboards are quoting Farage and you can see by his face he's thinking "Oh ****"

Edit: Here it is

https://twitter.com/davemacladd/status/1107036923938435078

PropJoe10

Roanmore wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1107214750532947968

Think Farage's credibility may be shot after this.

Wasn't aware he had any credibility before it, honestly.

Roanmore

Roanmore wrote: »

There's another clip on Twitter by Led By Donkeys where the billboards are quoting Farage and you can see by his face he's thinking "Oh ****"

Edit: Here it is

https://twitter.com/davemacladd/status/1107036923938435078

I think it's more a sign that many of the leave voters, feel utterly betrayed and defeated that they can't be bothered to protest. The next General Election will be very interesting.

ancapailldorcha

Tell me how wrote: »

He did create the mess. But, for sheer ineptitude across the whole range of leadership duties, May probably takes the gold.

Calling a GE, placating hard brexiteers, publishing of red lines, invoking article 50, selection of cabinet ministers, PR appearances, DUP bedfellows, tone to the EU and potential allies.

And, receiving a special award for being so bad that you still lag in the polls to Theresa May is, Jeremy Corbyn.

Yeah, sure.

I can't disagree here but look at the potential alternatives. Johnson? Davis? Redmond? For all her flaws May seems to have at least one foot on the ground while members of her cabinet has compared the EU to the soviet union and described inquiries into child sex abuse in the party to "Spaffing" money on a wall.

I mean, when someone can't manage such a basic task as condemning child molestation, how would they negotiate with the world's largest and wealthiest trading bloc.

Tell me how

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Yeah, sure.

I can't disagree here but look at the potential alternatives. Johnson? Davis? Redmond? For all her flaws May seems to have at least one foot on the ground while members of her cabinet has compared the EU to the soviet union and described inquiries into child sex abuse in the party to "Spaffing" money on a wall.

I mean, when someone can't manage such a basic task as condemning child molestation, how would they negotiate with the world's largest and wealthiest trading bloc.

There's no question but that there is a derth of talent at the top of both main parties in the UK.

And I've posted here before how I think maybe the reason May took on the role was because she strongly felt that the vote had to be upheld and also that none of the alternative candidates could have by any measured been expected to have been more capable than her to deliver some form of Brexit which didn't have them jumping off of a cliff. And the ironic thing is that they all know this given how JRM never contended for leadership, Johnson pulled out of the race and they voted to support her just a few weeks ago.

A very interesting topic of conversation is just how bad their FPP system has been in creating this type of environment and how many of the people who are behaving abysmally throughout this election will likely still be there after the next one.

Strazdas

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it's more a sign that many of the leave voters, feel utterly betrayed and defeated that they can't be bothered to protest. The next General Election will be very interesting.

I would say there is also a huge amount of "Brexit fatigue" going on. Even those who are still in favour of leaving the EU are probably thoroughly sick of Brexit at this stage and would just wish the topic would go away.

Joe_ Public

Definitely agree for all her ineptitude, the palatable alternatives to TM are few and far between. I think she took the job because it was a lifetime ambition for her and that was a fatal flaw, because the imperative for her became doing everything she needed to keep that position as opposed to what was the common good. Beyond being leader, she had no vision. Nobody knew her or what she stood for. For her, tagging on to the right wing of her party made sense as a means of bolstering her power and authority. Or so she calculated at least.